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I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!
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Yep, you're right.
And accroding to Hollywood they also captured the first Enigma machine 2 years before they even entered the war, thats how good they are.
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As a Yank, I'm sometimes surprised at the reactions out there, sometimes not.....
If it hadn't been for Britain's stance 1939-late 1941, life would have sucked for all of Europe. Don't believe Germany could have taken us out, but getting back the continent would have taken years longer, if at all.
We had a bunch of idiots who supported Hitler's ideology (the Bund, IIRC), even more who just wanted to stay out of it (some things never change apparently....), and a smart few who were working to be with the good guys.
The Soviets did a LOT of bad things in "liberating" Eastern Europe, like not letting the countries go after they booted out the Wehrmacht. And it truly sucked to be any sort of female when Ivan came through, BUT, if Ivan hadn't been in the fight, then the stance mentioned above wouldn't have lasted. Lots of divisions and aircraft would have poured west again.
Regarding Hollywood making the US as the sole victors and/or rewriting history, doesn't each country's film industry do that? They are trying to make a buck/pound/ruble, not be accurate. It's just a movie, fer Chris'sake.......
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Yep, you're right.
And accroding to Hollywood they also captured the first Enigma machine 2 years before they even entered the war, thats how good they are.
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As a Yank, I'm sometimes surprised at the reactions out there, sometimes not.....
If it hadn't been for Britain's stance 1939-late 1941, life would have sucked for all of Europe. Don't believe Germany could have taken us out, but getting back the continent would have taken years longer, if at all.
We had a bunch of idiots who supported Hitler's ideology (the Bund, IIRC), even more who just wanted to stay out of it (some things never change apparently....), and a smart few who were working to be with the good guys.
The Soviets did a LOT of bad things in "liberating" Eastern Europe, like not letting the countries go after they booted out the Wehrmacht. And it truly sucked to be any sort of female when Ivan came through, BUT, if Ivan hadn't been in the fight, then the stance mentioned above wouldn't have lasted. Lots of divisions and aircraft would have poured west again.
Regarding Hollywood making the US as the sole victors and/or rewriting history, doesn't each country's film industry do that? They are trying to make a buck/pound/ruble, not be accurate. It's just a movie, fer Chris'sake.......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
brickhistory wrote <<It's just a movie, fer Chris'sake.......>>
True.
It was Errol Flynn that got up the noses of British veteran's in the '50s. An Englishman who avoided the war by staying in Holywood and won the war in Burma in the US Army single-handed.
I studied Britsh film propaganda in the period 1933-1945 and that included Chaplin's Great Dictator and the political fallout it attracted. We are generally submitted to reasonably accurate war films with some as pure fiction such as Guns of Navaronne based on Alistar MacLean's novel. Where it is based on fact however but fact that is wholly distorted then it does create a stink.
The other films we looked at, briefly, were your Vietnam films from Green Beret to the Tom Hanks one. These are good examples of public attitude to one period of history from pro-war through to anti-war with the more recent Vietnam films tending toward the pro-war lobby again.
True.
It was Errol Flynn that got up the noses of British veteran's in the '50s. An Englishman who avoided the war by staying in Holywood and won the war in Burma in the US Army single-handed.
I studied Britsh film propaganda in the period 1933-1945 and that included Chaplin's Great Dictator and the political fallout it attracted. We are generally submitted to reasonably accurate war films with some as pure fiction such as Guns of Navaronne based on Alistar MacLean's novel. Where it is based on fact however but fact that is wholly distorted then it does create a stink.
The other films we looked at, briefly, were your Vietnam films from Green Beret to the Tom Hanks one. These are good examples of public attitude to one period of history from pro-war through to anti-war with the more recent Vietnam films tending toward the pro-war lobby again.
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I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
barit 1, we would conceed that the grunts in the Pacific can lay a large claim to that theatre but in the west of the theatre the British and India Armies were no less engaged.
One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.
HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.
One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.
HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.
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To all those across the pond, my original post was very much 'tongue in cheek'. I would never crticise the USA's contribution to bringing the most appalling war to an end. The 8th Air Forces contribution and bravery doing day-light raids was imeasurable and Enola Gay etc. certainly brought forward the end of that aspect of the war by possibly years and saved millions of lives.
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Well done, Mr Najmi!
Not that I'm trying to return the thread to its original point of course. Nothing wrong with a bit of who won the war banter!
Of course, it could be argued that it was the economies of Japan and Germany that won in the long run.
Not that I'm trying to return the thread to its original point of course. Nothing wrong with a bit of who won the war banter!
Of course, it could be argued that it was the economies of Japan and Germany that won in the long run.
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RN Pacific carrier ops
qoute:
One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.
HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.
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From which came the famous qoute from a USN officer serving as an liaison to Admiral Vian's (spelling?) staff:
"When we take a kamikaze, it's off to Pearl Harbor for six months refit, when you guys get hit, it's "Sweepers, man your brooms."
I also think our USN treated the RN shabbily once the RN's carrier task force entered Pacific ops in mid-1944. We definitely treated them like unwanted step-children (despite the loan of one of HM carriers during 1942 in the Pacific when all of ours were sunk or damaged.)
My hat's off to the FAA crews who flew missions, especially Seafire pilots. With that narrow-legged gear, took a lot of skill to bring it aboard (let's not go into the accident rate......)
One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.
HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.
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From which came the famous qoute from a USN officer serving as an liaison to Admiral Vian's (spelling?) staff:
"When we take a kamikaze, it's off to Pearl Harbor for six months refit, when you guys get hit, it's "Sweepers, man your brooms."
I also think our USN treated the RN shabbily once the RN's carrier task force entered Pacific ops in mid-1944. We definitely treated them like unwanted step-children (despite the loan of one of HM carriers during 1942 in the Pacific when all of ours were sunk or damaged.)
My hat's off to the FAA crews who flew missions, especially Seafire pilots. With that narrow-legged gear, took a lot of skill to bring it aboard (let's not go into the accident rate......)
"When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly."
Which is plagiarism of a Muldoon-ism.
Let's REALLY get this thread off topic and start talking about underarm bowling.....
Which is plagiarism of a Muldoon-ism.
Let's REALLY get this thread off topic and start talking about underarm bowling.....
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As this has developed into a history lesson on WW2, a small input from someone who feels strongly about the subject.
Without the assistance of the US the West would undoubtedly have lost WW2. I particular, the food and materiel we got from across the pond in 1940 and 1941 enabled Britain to survive alone against the axis. However the US was not interested in helping Britain maintaining the Empire, which they saw as a rival economically and politically. They were very slow in joining in the punch up and only did so when attacked by Japan and when Hitler then jumped on the band wagon and declared war on them.
Hollywood has subsequently distorted the input of every other nation to the final victory. That's life. One hopes that the history books will be more impartial and balanced, but don't hold your breath and anyway few of the general public world-wide will read them. One would hope that governments would be more honest, but look what crap the Japanese are now putting into their school history books.
By the way, US lend-lease was not a gift to us Brits, as the post-war Marshall Plan was to the rest of Europe, including Germany. We have been repaying it, plus interest, ever since. The last repayment to the US is due on 31 December 2006.
I admire much about the US and their people, but have no illusions about the "special relationship". I therefore hate to watch Blair, who represents us and our great nation, crawling to Bush.
Sorry if my emotions show through.
Without the assistance of the US the West would undoubtedly have lost WW2. I particular, the food and materiel we got from across the pond in 1940 and 1941 enabled Britain to survive alone against the axis. However the US was not interested in helping Britain maintaining the Empire, which they saw as a rival economically and politically. They were very slow in joining in the punch up and only did so when attacked by Japan and when Hitler then jumped on the band wagon and declared war on them.
Hollywood has subsequently distorted the input of every other nation to the final victory. That's life. One hopes that the history books will be more impartial and balanced, but don't hold your breath and anyway few of the general public world-wide will read them. One would hope that governments would be more honest, but look what crap the Japanese are now putting into their school history books.
By the way, US lend-lease was not a gift to us Brits, as the post-war Marshall Plan was to the rest of Europe, including Germany. We have been repaying it, plus interest, ever since. The last repayment to the US is due on 31 December 2006.
I admire much about the US and their people, but have no illusions about the "special relationship". I therefore hate to watch Blair, who represents us and our great nation, crawling to Bush.
Sorry if my emotions show through.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
And my potted view of American arms?
The tremendous and largely useless losses caused by the civil war shocked America.
Mass production enabled America to produce good quality munitions in quantity.
In WWI, remembering the civil war, they did not want to get involved. Involved they got and used their industrial muscle to break the stalemate and swing the balance.
In WWII ditto. Producing merchant ships in 14 days and Sherman tanks like car production all helped provide massive technological mass. At Anzio they managed to land one vehicle for every 4 men.
For WWIII the US again turned to technology and produced war winning equipment albeit not in numbers to match the USSR.
In GW1/2 their kit was superb.
I am not commenting on their skill at arms but at their technology driven approach to 'make the other dumb bastard die for his country.'
The tremendous and largely useless losses caused by the civil war shocked America.
Mass production enabled America to produce good quality munitions in quantity.
In WWI, remembering the civil war, they did not want to get involved. Involved they got and used their industrial muscle to break the stalemate and swing the balance.
In WWII ditto. Producing merchant ships in 14 days and Sherman tanks like car production all helped provide massive technological mass. At Anzio they managed to land one vehicle for every 4 men.
For WWIII the US again turned to technology and produced war winning equipment albeit not in numbers to match the USSR.
In GW1/2 their kit was superb.
I am not commenting on their skill at arms but at their technology driven approach to 'make the other dumb bastard die for his country.'
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Not as effective
qoute:
When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly.
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Could have been cutting if Sunfish spelled "significantly" correctly.
When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly.
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Could have been cutting if Sunfish spelled "significantly" correctly.
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History is written by the victors
BTW – anyone seem any films where the Germans won any battle ?
They did win some – but even the ones about Dunkirk make us seem to come out on top.
(Yes – Dunkirk was a sort of “victory” for us)
BTW – anyone seem any films where the Germans won any battle ?
They did win some – but even the ones about Dunkirk make us seem to come out on top.
(Yes – Dunkirk was a sort of “victory” for us)
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But it's true
How many people know how Hitler came to power - my history teacher was a bit lost on that bit of history.
A different war - but (now) near to me - did you know that Isawanda was a major victory - but Rorkes Drift never happened.
How many people know how Hitler came to power - my history teacher was a bit lost on that bit of history.
A different war - but (now) near to me - did you know that Isawanda was a major victory - but Rorkes Drift never happened.
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While I agree in a lot of above postings, it has to be said that some people are confusing things. While the US and the western allies contributed the most important goods (weapons, know-how, organization) to the victory in WWII, the USSR had to pay its worst blood toll, going to 25? Mio victims, or was it 30 Mio? Not included the millions that died post-1945.
Biggest thinking error of simple minds is that they put a people equal with a regime. Logical consequence is hatred, xenophobia and chauvinism.
Dani
Biggest thinking error of simple minds is that they put a people equal with a regime. Logical consequence is hatred, xenophobia and chauvinism.
Dani
Cunning Artificer
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A minor skirmish - there were only 4,500 Zulus in the attack against 104 soldiers. They left 351 dead behind when they withdrew next morning. At least the guys at Rorkes Drift found ammunition in their ammo boxes when they opened them - fighting a horde of Zulu warriors with a box of Jacob's Cream Crackers isn't medal winning glory stuff, though it should be. My great-grandfather was one of the unfortunate biscuit throwers by the way, the only one of the family left in South Africa.
The real Rorkes Drift looks nothing like the one featured in the 'Zulu' film and though extremely heavily outnumbered, those guys were well dug in behind prepared revettments (making good use of their boxes of biscuits). I'd say quite a few Zulus deserved medals that day - being in the front rank of those charging uphill against dug in redcoats meant certain death.
Returning to the case of BoB pilot's lost medals, it is as well to remember that "The Few" flew continuously against superior odds for several weeks and gave no quarter. Far too few medals were awarded in my opinion, but what are mere medals to real heroes?
The real Rorkes Drift looks nothing like the one featured in the 'Zulu' film and though extremely heavily outnumbered, those guys were well dug in behind prepared revettments (making good use of their boxes of biscuits). I'd say quite a few Zulus deserved medals that day - being in the front rank of those charging uphill against dug in redcoats meant certain death.
Returning to the case of BoB pilot's lost medals, it is as well to remember that "The Few" flew continuously against superior odds for several weeks and gave no quarter. Far too few medals were awarded in my opinion, but what are mere medals to real heroes?
Last edited by Blacksheep; 26th Sep 2005 at 04:56.
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Blacksheep: I know that Zulu bore only a superficial resemblance to the battle at Rorkes Drift; what I am questioning is African Tech Rep's statement that " Rorkes Drift never happened".