Secondary Duties???????
Thread Starter
Secondary Duties???????
Hi,
This question is aimed at those of you who sit on promotion boards or know the inner dealings of how the board concludes its business. We all know that to get promoted in the NCA world the candidate needs to be eligible in the purely military sense and show some additional qualities, we also know that to get that promotion you need to have some "high profile" secondary duties.
So the question is, what does the board consider to be high profile? How would the board look at a candidate who only had a sec duty that helped the community ie. gave one night a week to the local meals on wheels office or to the cub scouts?
Thanks in advance for any response
This question is aimed at those of you who sit on promotion boards or know the inner dealings of how the board concludes its business. We all know that to get promoted in the NCA world the candidate needs to be eligible in the purely military sense and show some additional qualities, we also know that to get that promotion you need to have some "high profile" secondary duties.
So the question is, what does the board consider to be high profile? How would the board look at a candidate who only had a sec duty that helped the community ie. gave one night a week to the local meals on wheels office or to the cub scouts?
Thanks in advance for any response
Last edited by akula; 11th Sep 2005 at 15:10.
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Things have moved on a bit from the focus just being on military secondary duties. Reprting officers (and hence promotion boards) should comment on extra-curricular activities. So, if you are active in the local community, running a scout group, doing voluntary work or the like, it can (and should) be commented on. Personally, I think there is more merit in helping a local community than running the Sqn tea bar. In general terms, military people are well looked after - many people in towns and villages are not so fortunate. Bottom line is that "community" activities should be commented on.
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Points to be aware of:
1. Promotion boards only give credit for activities they know about. So, if you're doing meals on wheels etc, make sure that your reporting chain are aware of it throughout the year and include it in your OJAR. The more of your time you spend on an activity, the more you should expect to see it highlighted in the report.
2. If all you can demonstrate is 1 evening a week, be certain that there are plenty of others on your promotion board doing a helluva lot more and so getting their extra-curricula work highlighted more strongly.
3. Secondary duties aren't what get you promoted, it's just the factor that puts the top of the board in a particular running order, because you have to use something to differentiate between 2 very good workers who are neck and neck professionally (or, to be accurate, appear to be neck and neck based on their reports). I have sat on boards where we have only had 1 slot to fill and something had to decide the order between 4 excellent candidates, all of whom appeared to be god's gift at work. (As an aside: 1 got bumped down because of a single 'not glowing' comment from his 3rd RO; 1 was dropped because although they had spec recs, and had done so for 3 years since promotion, we got the gut feeling from the 1st RO's narrative, that the subject was living on past glory and only got a spec rec because they got one the previous year; and we could have tossed a coin between the final 2, deciding on the 'winner' because their 3rd RO had used a phrase along the lines of 'best I have seen in 34 years of service' whereas the other's said 'the best I have seen.' Harsh, but the board has to make a decision somehow. Incidentally, a bloke with shed loads of secondary duties didn't get placed in the top 5 as the report didn't extol his virtues at work sufficiently.)
4. Boards don't care what you do out of work as long as you are showing some dedication, a willingness to take additional responsibility and don't just sit around watching the telly all the time. Almost any activity can show those qualities.
Added for Tigermate:
The time varies depending on the board and the place you come on the board. The first people to be read are done slowly as the board 'finds its feet' and will be looked at again at the end to make sure that the same yardstick has been applied throughout. Smaller boards get longer readings per person than larger ones. On average, each candidate probably gets 5-10 minutes (remember that not everyone of all grades get read).
1. Promotion boards only give credit for activities they know about. So, if you're doing meals on wheels etc, make sure that your reporting chain are aware of it throughout the year and include it in your OJAR. The more of your time you spend on an activity, the more you should expect to see it highlighted in the report.
2. If all you can demonstrate is 1 evening a week, be certain that there are plenty of others on your promotion board doing a helluva lot more and so getting their extra-curricula work highlighted more strongly.
3. Secondary duties aren't what get you promoted, it's just the factor that puts the top of the board in a particular running order, because you have to use something to differentiate between 2 very good workers who are neck and neck professionally (or, to be accurate, appear to be neck and neck based on their reports). I have sat on boards where we have only had 1 slot to fill and something had to decide the order between 4 excellent candidates, all of whom appeared to be god's gift at work. (As an aside: 1 got bumped down because of a single 'not glowing' comment from his 3rd RO; 1 was dropped because although they had spec recs, and had done so for 3 years since promotion, we got the gut feeling from the 1st RO's narrative, that the subject was living on past glory and only got a spec rec because they got one the previous year; and we could have tossed a coin between the final 2, deciding on the 'winner' because their 3rd RO had used a phrase along the lines of 'best I have seen in 34 years of service' whereas the other's said 'the best I have seen.' Harsh, but the board has to make a decision somehow. Incidentally, a bloke with shed loads of secondary duties didn't get placed in the top 5 as the report didn't extol his virtues at work sufficiently.)
4. Boards don't care what you do out of work as long as you are showing some dedication, a willingness to take additional responsibility and don't just sit around watching the telly all the time. Almost any activity can show those qualities.
Added for Tigermate:
The time varies depending on the board and the place you come on the board. The first people to be read are done slowly as the board 'finds its feet' and will be looked at again at the end to make sure that the same yardstick has been applied throughout. Smaller boards get longer readings per person than larger ones. On average, each candidate probably gets 5-10 minutes (remember that not everyone of all grades get read).
Crikey...check your priorities and get a grip.
How important is it to you to be promoted? It seems that you're trying to second-guess the system and give yourself that 1 percent advantage over your peers; good luck to you if that's your goal, but it sounds far too wanky to me I'm afraid.
How important is it to you to be promoted? It seems that you're trying to second-guess the system and give yourself that 1 percent advantage over your peers; good luck to you if that's your goal, but it sounds far too wanky to me I'm afraid.
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Secondary duties will get you promoted, in the sense that 2 people who are at the top of their game will eventually get graded on their extra curricular activites, it stands to reason.
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Agree with the bit about "the candadate needs to be eligible in the purely military sense and show some additional qualities", trouble is, too many people now get things all ar$e about face and concentrate on running the scout pack first and actually being a good aviator/SNCO/leader of men etc comes a poor second.....but hey, what a great scout camp they had this year!
Frankly, I like my own time to be just that, and can't be ar$ed trying to impress others with what I did at the weekend, life's too short.
Some of my hobbies involve me in other social groups beyond the military, but to think I partake just to get Brownie points insults all those friends I have in said outside circles
Frankly, I like my own time to be just that, and can't be ar$ed trying to impress others with what I did at the weekend, life's too short.
Some of my hobbies involve me in other social groups beyond the military, but to think I partake just to get Brownie points insults all those friends I have in said outside circles
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The whole system was set up pre expeditionary RAF, it is geared to the 9-5ers who can do all the additional cr?p to get promoted.
The guys (and gals) who are away 6-8 months of the year on deployment do not get the chance to do the meals on wheels or scouts etc.
In my opinion the best way for NCA to get on the promotion ladder is to go down the instructional route as a lot of Sqn PICs are instructor posts.
The ground crew has the same problem, much more likely to get promoted on a MU than a Sqn
R1a
The guys (and gals) who are away 6-8 months of the year on deployment do not get the chance to do the meals on wheels or scouts etc.
In my opinion the best way for NCA to get on the promotion ladder is to go down the instructional route as a lot of Sqn PICs are instructor posts.
The ground crew has the same problem, much more likely to get promoted on a MU than a Sqn
R1a
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Select and maintain your aim. If you are aiming at the stars remember you need to get your ticket punched.
If you want to fly, well, what the heck, fly and sod the secondary duties.
A few years ago the USAF stars rarely exceed 2 000 hours by the time they got their first star.
In the UK, Craig, as a wg cdr, aimed at 1 000 hours in 2 years. Didn't quite make it and hours hunting didn't hurt him though.
If you want to fly, well, what the heck, fly and sod the secondary duties.
A few years ago the USAF stars rarely exceed 2 000 hours by the time they got their first star.
In the UK, Craig, as a wg cdr, aimed at 1 000 hours in 2 years. Didn't quite make it and hours hunting didn't hurt him though.
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I know of one CAS who boasted the grand total of 1500 hours - operational stuff on Lightnings. Never saw another type, but fast tracked through the junior and senior ranks before hitting the perfect air rank route...
And watch closely the career of AVM D.W. - he's headed upstairs rapidly!
And watch closely the career of AVM D.W. - he's headed upstairs rapidly!
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Secondary duties?????
|Bollocks to that!
pardon the french!
On my crew, several of the guys have spent more than 19 months away out of the last 30. Where is the time for secondary duties there?
Are we now promoting pen pushing blunties??? or do we give credit to the blokes that do the job????
No differnece to me - PAS. But it grips my ring to think guys get promoted on the last ladies tea party when guys spend half their time fighting a war.
rant ends
|Bollocks to that!
pardon the french!
On my crew, several of the guys have spent more than 19 months away out of the last 30. Where is the time for secondary duties there?
Are we now promoting pen pushing blunties??? or do we give credit to the blokes that do the job????
No differnece to me - PAS. But it grips my ring to think guys get promoted on the last ladies tea party when guys spend half their time fighting a war.
rant ends
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Are we now promoting pen pushing blunties??? or do we give credit to the blokes that do the job????
By the way, have you seen the new Sqn photo board?
One of my ex-UAS students who had been Wokka-ing his way through every single one of Bliar's various wars of recent years was told that he was "too operationally focused" to be picked up for promotion.....
Says it all really. Oi/c Officers' Mess Summer Ball or ProjO for a cr@p OM phone system would no doubt have given him the 'broader outlook' which the promotion boards like?
I was once congratulated by the then AOC personally (at an AT/AAR symposium) for my ACR. Nice chap. Didn't help though - I needed another 2 consecutive SRs before getting promotion to SA Sqn Ldr....
Says it all really. Oi/c Officers' Mess Summer Ball or ProjO for a cr@p OM phone system would no doubt have given him the 'broader outlook' which the promotion boards like?
I was once congratulated by the then AOC personally (at an AT/AAR symposium) for my ACR. Nice chap. Didn't help though - I needed another 2 consecutive SRs before getting promotion to SA Sqn Ldr....
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Dude
Charity work think poor helpless kiddies or the like, not forgetting the olduns such as beags, fishing his soggy digestive out of his morning cuppa is sure to move you on.
Believe running a scout troop is only good if you introduce senior officers to the young boys. 
.
My final option is to pay out the imprest when pissed keep no records and claim you were robbed- worked before
Charlie sends
Charity work think poor helpless kiddies or the like, not forgetting the olduns such as beags, fishing his soggy digestive out of his morning cuppa is sure to move you on.
Believe running a scout troop is only good if you introduce senior officers to the young boys.
.My final option is to pay out the imprest when pissed keep no records and claim you were robbed- worked before
Charlie sends
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akula: there was a "report" from the NCA promotion board going around the Green and Gold Sqn a few weeks ago. It contained a couple of A4 pages' worth of the Board's thoughts on both the reports and the candidates they've looked at in the last year, and the closest you'll get to "tips" from them (eg, one big secondary duty is better than lots of little ones, ROs with a grasp of the English Language help, etc).
I reckon it's worth trying to chase up. Grab me in work or PM me if you need help finding it.
d
I reckon it's worth trying to chase up. Grab me in work or PM me if you need help finding it.
d
"...was told that he was "too operationally focused" to be picked up for promotion....."
That is the most crass and shaming statement that I have ever seen on Pprune, if that is the case then I am afraid it's over, the lunatics HAVE taken over the asylum, the cart is well before the horse, the world has been turned upside down and the RAF of old I knew is dead and buried.
Perhaps we should burn the remains, encase them in a small ern and play some form of sport for them on an annual basis?
Too operationaly focussed to be picked for promotion? I really HAVE heard it all now, retiring to weep quietly in a corner............
That is the most crass and shaming statement that I have ever seen on Pprune, if that is the case then I am afraid it's over, the lunatics HAVE taken over the asylum, the cart is well before the horse, the world has been turned upside down and the RAF of old I knew is dead and buried.
Perhaps we should burn the remains, encase them in a small ern and play some form of sport for them on an annual basis?
Too operationaly focussed to be picked for promotion? I really HAVE heard it all now, retiring to weep quietly in a corner............
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Had a similar one from an out-of-Province thick as mince 1st RO from my time in NI:
"... admirable qualities in Bosnia, but not in a peacetime appointment."
Got a commendation from the GOC NI for the same reporting period.
confused.com
"... admirable qualities in Bosnia, but not in a peacetime appointment."
Got a commendation from the GOC NI for the same reporting period.confused.com
Hmmm yes I seem to remember being told something about secondary duties back at Cranditz and how being OIC Knitting and Macramy will make me a more rounded person and therefore more promotable.
I have just come back from my 3rd jolly to the sandpit in 2 years and will no doubt be expected to go off on god knows how many pointless exercises as well as more time on ops which I don't mind. When I am actually at home, I am currently doing my job plus 2 other peoples' - well one which is also covering a post which will never be filled, so effectively 3 as they all come banging on my door. Where the do I find time for secondary duties??????? What does the system want - the world's best knitted scarf in RAF colours or me to do my job????? I do my bit on sqn, but I don't have time to build a new hospital single handedly or organise a charity exped to Outer Mongolia on behalf of the retired chisselers association.
What's the betting that when the board sits, all they can talk about is how nice a scarf would be come winter
Hurrumph
I have just come back from my 3rd jolly to the sandpit in 2 years and will no doubt be expected to go off on god knows how many pointless exercises as well as more time on ops which I don't mind. When I am actually at home, I am currently doing my job plus 2 other peoples' - well one which is also covering a post which will never be filled, so effectively 3 as they all come banging on my door. Where the
do I find time for secondary duties??????? What does the system want - the world's best knitted scarf in RAF colours or me to do my job????? I do my bit on sqn, but I don't have time to build a new hospital single handedly or organise a charity exped to Outer Mongolia on behalf of the retired chisselers association.What's the betting that when the board sits, all they can talk about is how nice a scarf would be come winter
Hurrumph
Last edited by Melchett01; 12th Sep 2005 at 23:42.
The concept is known as "Career Corporals"....there is a kind of guy that is exceptional at his war fighting job....fights wars...get the job done that he is assigned...does it well...and on time...and never gets promoted to his true and just deserves.....because then he would not be around to accomplish what needs to be done.
The pencil pushing...stroke the boss....kiss ass who does the Boy Scout thing not for doing good deeds for the young ones...but merely for the brownie points it brings him...are the drones that get promoted.
War fighters always get the short end of the stick....in a peace time military.
The pencil pushing...stroke the boss....kiss ass who does the Boy Scout thing not for doing good deeds for the young ones...but merely for the brownie points it brings him...are the drones that get promoted.
War fighters always get the short end of the stick....in a peace time military.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Melchett01 - You have hit the nail on the head, but unfortunately it is your true namesakes (their Airships) who make the promotion game what it is. You see in their world, real Gentleman don't have careers or skills, they merely command those that do. So when Bloggs demonstrates a penchant for organising Polo matches or fiddling with Boy Scouts (despite the fact he couldn't find his arse in the dark with both hands) He clearly has the edge over some bright thing whose only ability appears to be to fly more operational NVG hours in the sandbox than his boss has total time, or has let his 3 tours of 'stan in the last 12 months get in the way of supporting Mess activities.
The powers that be reinforce their own jaded view of the service, because blow me down, the bugger$ who get the recognition then begin to believe that extra curricular activities are the key to success, and soon become the people making these decisions for other people, thus perpetuating this attitude. You should try the Army, and a couple of hundred years of inbreeding at senior levels if you think the Air Force has it bad.
The powers that be reinforce their own jaded view of the service, because blow me down, the bugger$ who get the recognition then begin to believe that extra curricular activities are the key to success, and soon become the people making these decisions for other people, thus perpetuating this attitude. You should try the Army, and a couple of hundred years of inbreeding at senior levels if you think the Air Force has it bad.