Further London Explosions
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Ah, the moment I have been waiting for on PPrune - when I actually can talk from a position of professional practice, rather than just general interest in a subject.
As we say on here when some poor fellow blunts in - can we leave the speculation and conjecture until the full facts become known?
The officer that took the decision to do what he - or she - did ( and it was a decision, based on training and judgement) is probably still at work. They are having an incredibly long day, based on taking a judgement call which will potentially change the face of policing in the British Isles forever.
The situation they will find themselves in won't be far off that of Jack Ryan in Patriot Games. I know I would never sleep quite the same in my bed, especially if my identity became widely known.
They have taken a massively brave decision. They obviously feared an imminent attack from the instructions they gave to bystanders. However gung-ho or thick as p*g**** you might think bobbies are, the truth is, we don't let people carry a gun unless we are absolutely sure they are up to it.
Some of the comments on here would tend to make armed police officers wonder why they bother. If they decide not to - because it is purely voluntary - then prepare for anarchy, or a military state.
CV? 10 years of a fifteen year career as an AFO. currently a tactical adviser, and currently qualified on Glock, MP5, G36, Taser, and baton gun.
STANDTO
As we say on here when some poor fellow blunts in - can we leave the speculation and conjecture until the full facts become known?
The officer that took the decision to do what he - or she - did ( and it was a decision, based on training and judgement) is probably still at work. They are having an incredibly long day, based on taking a judgement call which will potentially change the face of policing in the British Isles forever.
The situation they will find themselves in won't be far off that of Jack Ryan in Patriot Games. I know I would never sleep quite the same in my bed, especially if my identity became widely known.
They have taken a massively brave decision. They obviously feared an imminent attack from the instructions they gave to bystanders. However gung-ho or thick as p*g**** you might think bobbies are, the truth is, we don't let people carry a gun unless we are absolutely sure they are up to it.
Some of the comments on here would tend to make armed police officers wonder why they bother. If they decide not to - because it is purely voluntary - then prepare for anarchy, or a military state.
CV? 10 years of a fifteen year career as an AFO. currently a tactical adviser, and currently qualified on Glock, MP5, G36, Taser, and baton gun.
STANDTO
Last edited by STANDTO; 22nd Jul 2005 at 21:16.
Standto,
Hit a few of the JB threads....you will see you have plenty of strong support....a few came forth with the usual line of tripe....but were predictable in that....and were quickly reminded of just what you have said by others before your post.
The amazing progress shown by the Police and other Goverment agencies in pursuing this investigation is amazing and warrants praise from all around.
Being a police officer is never an easy task....but more so now days. Draw fast, aim slow....shoot straight!
Eight years of police service here.....and a kindred spirit!
Hit a few of the JB threads....you will see you have plenty of strong support....a few came forth with the usual line of tripe....but were predictable in that....and were quickly reminded of just what you have said by others before your post.
The amazing progress shown by the Police and other Goverment agencies in pursuing this investigation is amazing and warrants praise from all around.
Being a police officer is never an easy task....but more so now days. Draw fast, aim slow....shoot straight!
Eight years of police service here.....and a kindred spirit!
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Watched lots of news today. Read lots of news online after reading this thread.
Facts seem to be the "victim" was under reasonable suspicion of being connected to the bombing threat. He didn't stop when challenged. He ran to a train. He was shot.
Everything else on the thread seems to be speculation.
On a slight change, let's not have the media do the bad guy's int for them. There's already speculation in the media as to why the bombs didn't go off. When the authorities find the answer let's hope the media don't chase after it. "Wire a wasn't connected to wire b" says the media - "Good" says the bad guy, "I'll get that right next time"
Facts seem to be the "victim" was under reasonable suspicion of being connected to the bombing threat. He didn't stop when challenged. He ran to a train. He was shot.
Everything else on the thread seems to be speculation.
On a slight change, let's not have the media do the bad guy's int for them. There's already speculation in the media as to why the bombs didn't go off. When the authorities find the answer let's hope the media don't chase after it. "Wire a wasn't connected to wire b" says the media - "Good" says the bad guy, "I'll get that right next time"
Oh...I don't know....well if I was the lead investigator....and I wanted the "public" to be very well informed....ah....uh...well you see if they had mixed a bit more of this...a bit less of that...and wired lead A to diode B...and then......trust me on this!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
What's all the banter about, I thought the victim's condition had been described by a police spokesman as either "stable" or "satisfactory"...
Don't bother with the rant - twenty odd years of keeping Pat and Mick amused has permanently disqualified me from the fluffy bunny club.
Don't bother with the rant - twenty odd years of keeping Pat and Mick amused has permanently disqualified me from the fluffy bunny club.
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If we have to suffer these "Islamic" inadequates let's hope they keep playing with Acetone Peroxide. Interestingly enough, it's already accounted for a significant number of Palestinian bombers in "own goal" spectaculars.
If proven to be the preferred choice, or all that the Moslem terror groups in Leeds, Bradford or Tipton for example can get their hands on, all the better.
It is unstable, degrades with time albeit highly explosive as we have regrettably seen to our cost, but it tends to scare the bejesus out of those handling it (As evidenced by the fact that the "suicide" bombers are now chucking rucksacks onto trains and scarpering ?)
As for the "5 rounds" to the head, sub judice now of course although the speculation from the usual suspects will only give the terrorist the benefit of the doubt, never the policeman on the front line with milliseconds to act. I guess you have to be there at the time.
Sounds like a righteous shoot to me though and serves notice on the terrorists that the good guys have the initiative as long as the public are alert, the intel is good and the murderers are on the defensive now for the time being.
If proven to be the preferred choice, or all that the Moslem terror groups in Leeds, Bradford or Tipton for example can get their hands on, all the better.
It is unstable, degrades with time albeit highly explosive as we have regrettably seen to our cost, but it tends to scare the bejesus out of those handling it (As evidenced by the fact that the "suicide" bombers are now chucking rucksacks onto trains and scarpering ?)
As for the "5 rounds" to the head, sub judice now of course although the speculation from the usual suspects will only give the terrorist the benefit of the doubt, never the policeman on the front line with milliseconds to act. I guess you have to be there at the time.
Sounds like a righteous shoot to me though and serves notice on the terrorists that the good guys have the initiative as long as the public are alert, the intel is good and the murderers are on the defensive now for the time being.
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Does the 'shoot in the head' policy only apply to our chums of somewhat arab extraction or can they now shoot Mr or Mrs 'white middle class' as well?
However, the threat is currently from the Islamic extreemists and they, on the whole, are "our chums of somewhat arab extraction" as you so elloquently put it. It is no wonder that people are more suspicious of Asians carrying rucksacks on public transport than Mr or Mrs 'white middle class'. It is not racist, just natural fear and suspision.
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"Muslim lobby groups said they were shocked by the killing and urged a full inquiry".
Just like we were shocked by 56 innocent deaths by murderers
Why does this guy get referred to as a "victim"? He was a suspect of a heinous crime and as such is clearly not a victim but a probable perpetrator. We have been saved from hearing about his victims and lets hope his chums follow his route to nirvana.
Just like we were shocked by 56 innocent deaths by murderers
Why does this guy get referred to as a "victim"? He was a suspect of a heinous crime and as such is clearly not a victim but a probable perpetrator. We have been saved from hearing about his victims and lets hope his chums follow his route to nirvana.
Gentleman Aviator
Two points occur to me:
"Shoot-to-Kill-Policy" never been anything else. No such thing these days as "warning shots" or disabling shots. If you have to shoot (very big IF) then you shoot to kill.
Head Shot or Not Normally a body shot - apart from anything else it's a bigger target. But (very big BUT) death is not as instantaneous as a head shot. Might not be time for the full John Wayne life-story-and-look-after-the-kids dit, but enough time to press a button in yer pocket. And that's before you consider whether a "lucky" shot might set off the det.
No time for button=instant death=brain death=head shot.
QED
Once again - well done to SO19 or whoever.
"Shoot-to-Kill-Policy" never been anything else. No such thing these days as "warning shots" or disabling shots. If you have to shoot (very big IF) then you shoot to kill.
Head Shot or Not Normally a body shot - apart from anything else it's a bigger target. But (very big BUT) death is not as instantaneous as a head shot. Might not be time for the full John Wayne life-story-and-look-after-the-kids dit, but enough time to press a button in yer pocket. And that's before you consider whether a "lucky" shot might set off the det.
No time for button=instant death=brain death=head shot.
QED
Once again - well done to SO19 or whoever.
The huggy-fluffy cr@p spouted by some about the person shot in the Tube is totally irrelevant. Since he ran off from officers before vaulting the barriers and ending up in the train, no-one in the train could possibly have heard the original challenge.
The message is, if you are a ne'er do well or behave like one, then you will die. And quite rightly so. But if you're innocent and do what you are told to when challenged, you won't.....
Well done to the 'police' involved!
The message is, if you are a ne'er do well or behave like one, then you will die. And quite rightly so. But if you're innocent and do what you are told to when challenged, you won't.....
Well done to the 'police' involved!
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It has just been announced that the guy that was shot was nothing to do with the bombings on Thursday, despite being under surveillance. Investigations are ongoing. I hope that those involved are given the full support and backing of their superiors during the enquiry.
No matter what, the 'ne'er do wells' will think twice before misbehaving on the tubes again... Well done SO19!
No matter what, the 'ne'er do wells' will think twice before misbehaving on the tubes again... Well done SO19!
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Not well done at all methinks.... The proverbial is about to hit the fan - govenments have fallen over less.
If this guy was as innocent as Mr Baha Musa in Iraq then this is just as much a war crime as the alledged offences against our soldiers in Iraq and since Col Mendonca has also been charged then it is only right that the Police Commisioner Blair be charged as well....
This is not a police state (yet) and one simply cannot slaughter the civilian population and hide behind the excuse "He was given a warning" it's almost as lousy an excuse as "I was only following orders" subsequently proved to be...
If this guy was as innocent as Mr Baha Musa in Iraq then this is just as much a war crime as the alledged offences against our soldiers in Iraq and since Col Mendonca has also been charged then it is only right that the Police Commisioner Blair be charged as well....
This is not a police state (yet) and one simply cannot slaughter the civilian population and hide behind the excuse "He was given a warning" it's almost as lousy an excuse as "I was only following orders" subsequently proved to be...
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this is just as much a war crime as the alledged offences against our soldiers in Iraq
I will contribute to the Defense Fund for the Cops if it comes to that.
War Crime...that comment does not warrant a rational response for a host of commonsense reasons which someone plainly misses.
It is purely a civilian matter...done by civilian law enforcement for very understandable reasons. It would take the proverbial Village Non-Elder to consider this anything but "one of those things that happen" despite the very best of effort to prevent them.
War Crime...that comment does not warrant a rational response for a host of commonsense reasons which someone plainly misses.
It is purely a civilian matter...done by civilian law enforcement for very understandable reasons. It would take the proverbial Village Non-Elder to consider this anything but "one of those things that happen" despite the very best of effort to prevent them.
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This is an almighty bl**dy mess to be sure. Although he didn't die, Steven Waldorf has something very similar happen to him. the result then was a huge tightening of authority levels and training. However, because of the proliferation in gun crime, that tightening has been uncontainable in the last ten years and a much more pragmatic approach necessary.
What has to change is the publics attitude towards the police. If a police officer says, in today's climate, "Stand Still!" the best option is to do so.
God rest the poor sould who bought the farm, and let common sense prevail in the following enquiry
What has to change is the publics attitude towards the police. If a police officer says, in today's climate, "Stand Still!" the best option is to do so.
God rest the poor sould who bought the farm, and let common sense prevail in the following enquiry
Last edited by STANDTO; 23rd Jul 2005 at 18:10.
So why did he run?
Don't stop when lawfully challenged by armed police officers = expect to die.
Learn the lesson......
Particularly now.
Don't stop when lawfully challenged by armed police officers = expect to die.
Learn the lesson......
Particularly now.