Further London Explosions
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Whatever you guys say on here, the Police or the SAS or whoever it was murdered an innocent man in cold blood. The repercussions of this going to be enormous. I personally don’t believe it was the Police because this had all the hallmarks of a typical military we are above the law captain c*ck-up!!!
But hey who in the jingoistic military cares? An excellent job well done no doubt. Home in time for tea and medals..
Pathetic
But hey who in the jingoistic military cares? An excellent job well done no doubt. Home in time for tea and medals..
Pathetic
Well, Gorilla, before making such a stupid comment, perhaps you should tell us what you would have done in the circumstances?
I have total faith in those armed police officers involved.
I have total faith in those armed police officers involved.
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If you want to read about police firearms, the first half of the ACPO manual of guidance on the police use of firearms is on the ACPO website. The only bits that are subject to PII, and therefore not published, are those specifically relating to tactics. The rest, including ROE, are there for all to see.
Hope this answers a few questions. Ultimately though, the ultimate decision rests with the officer holding the gun. Strategic parameters are set at gold level, tactics, with the support of a tactical adviser, are set at silver, and the execution (unfortunate word) is carries out at bronze. At all levels, decisions are made on available intelligence at the time. If we take it that Gold strategy was to seek suicide bombers and stop atrocities, then silver had intelligence that house X contained persons believed to be bombers, and bronze officers on surveillance watched someone leave that house who went towards a railway station, and when challenged legged it on to a train, I think it is pretty easy to see how an officer could have a firmly held belief that another atrocity was about to take place.
Poor B*gger is about to spend the next twelve months in the washing machine. It is , a huge mess. I must say, I don't think this will be a SF operation either. This is doubtless a Met job.
Hope this answers a few questions. Ultimately though, the ultimate decision rests with the officer holding the gun. Strategic parameters are set at gold level, tactics, with the support of a tactical adviser, are set at silver, and the execution (unfortunate word) is carries out at bronze. At all levels, decisions are made on available intelligence at the time. If we take it that Gold strategy was to seek suicide bombers and stop atrocities, then silver had intelligence that house X contained persons believed to be bombers, and bronze officers on surveillance watched someone leave that house who went towards a railway station, and when challenged legged it on to a train, I think it is pretty easy to see how an officer could have a firmly held belief that another atrocity was about to take place.
Poor B*gger is about to spend the next twelve months in the washing machine. It is , a huge mess. I must say, I don't think this will be a SF operation either. This is doubtless a Met job.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Beagle
Arrested him, he was unarmed!
And oh yes there were three of them!!
Having piled into him and restrained him they did not need to murder him. And of course the truth hurts which is why my comments are stupid I suppose.
Arrested him, he was unarmed!
And oh yes there were three of them!!
Having piled into him and restrained him they did not need to murder him. And of course the truth hurts which is why my comments are stupid I suppose.
Ah - the joys of 20:20 hindsight. A quality which wet liberals would appear to have in abundance.
The suspicion was clearly that the deceased had a concealed suicide bomb on his person; that was increased considerably when he failed to stand still when challenged and bolted for the Underground, acting in a manner which looked for all intents and purposes like the last desperate act of a suicide bomber about to kill himself and dozens of others.
In such circumstances an 'arrest' would clearly be impossible without exposing the armed officers and general public to potentially lethal risk.
The suspicion was clearly that the deceased had a concealed suicide bomb on his person; that was increased considerably when he failed to stand still when challenged and bolted for the Underground, acting in a manner which looked for all intents and purposes like the last desperate act of a suicide bomber about to kill himself and dozens of others.
In such circumstances an 'arrest' would clearly be impossible without exposing the armed officers and general public to potentially lethal risk.
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If we take it that Gold strategy was to seek suicide bombers and stop atrocities, then silver had intelligence that house X contained persons believed to be bombers, and bronze officers on surveillance watched someone leave that house who went towards a railway station, and when challenged legged it on to a train, I think it is pretty easy to see how an officer could have a firmly held belief that another atrocity was about to take place.
For those of you who are saying he may not have heard or understood challenges, therefore cold blooded murder etc etc – that is (a) subjective and (b) boll*cks.
Here are the FACT's - Wearing a ‘large’ coat, he ran away from armed officers the day after the second terrorist attack on the city in two weeks, jumped the ticket barriers at a tube station and headed straight for a train.
This, coupled with STANDTO’s comments shows that the actions of the officers involved were, IMHO, more than reasonable.
I am from London originally, my sister travels through Stockwell and Oval everyday to and from work. The officers made a split second decision, based on the FACT’s stated above, to protect the safety of her and every other Londoner, they deserve all the support we can give them.
Rant over.
NFS
Unfortunately this is a tragedy for the individual concerned and his friends and family and an absolute disaster for the Police and those individuals concerned.
I really can understand the points of view being touted by both sides in this argument, the Police officers involved clearly thought they had a suspect who was both dressed as to arouse suspicion, had just left a house that was under surveillance and who did not stop when challenged and then fled TOWARDS a Tube train. It does not take a rocket scientist or a conspiracy theorist to see what the Police offices involved must have thought!
On the other hand, this guy was a Brazilian who had spent time in some of the dodgy slum areas of Sau Paulo where kidnap and murder are rife. Once again it does not take a huge leap of faith to understand what he must have thought when confronted by shouting and gesticulating men in normal clothes who were waving a hand gun at him and yelling at him in a foreign language, you can also understand why he would have fled in a blind panic.
There is no way however to understand what ever made him flee toward a tube train, and then board it?
There are NO winners here, absolutely none.
I really can understand the points of view being touted by both sides in this argument, the Police officers involved clearly thought they had a suspect who was both dressed as to arouse suspicion, had just left a house that was under surveillance and who did not stop when challenged and then fled TOWARDS a Tube train. It does not take a rocket scientist or a conspiracy theorist to see what the Police offices involved must have thought!
On the other hand, this guy was a Brazilian who had spent time in some of the dodgy slum areas of Sau Paulo where kidnap and murder are rife. Once again it does not take a huge leap of faith to understand what he must have thought when confronted by shouting and gesticulating men in normal clothes who were waving a hand gun at him and yelling at him in a foreign language, you can also understand why he would have fled in a blind panic.
There is no way however to understand what ever made him flee toward a tube train, and then board it?
There are NO winners here, absolutely none.
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Suddenly accosted by at least three man in civilian attire he may well have considered that he was about to be mugged - and ran.
Certainly the "eye witness" from the train who appeared on the news reports was adament that he heard no warnings directed to the suspect, who was on the ground, before the police opened fire.
There will, I trust, be an inquiry and an Inquest: however there was no Inquest into the death of Dr Kelly.
Certainly the "eye witness" from the train who appeared on the news reports was adament that he heard no warnings directed to the suspect, who was on the ground, before the police opened fire.
There will, I trust, be an inquiry and an Inquest: however there was no Inquest into the death of Dr Kelly.
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Gorilla
what an apt name. A beast on the lower edge of the evolutionary chain, with a very limited intelligence and an inability to reason anything.
Only good at sitting in the woods and scratching their arses.
So Captain Fantastic (Gorilla), you think do you that you could pursue a suspect suicide bomber only 24 hours since previous bombings. Someone who refuses to stop when challenged, who then runs into an underground station onto a train, wearing a bulky coat, and there are pax on the train. You have seconds to act before this individual activates the suspect bomb. Your tactics are pin down arms apart and kill with a head shot (it prevents inadvertant detonation in the event of a chest shot). You are scared, youve now got 1 second as he falls on the floor. Sadly for the police, you gorilla are not there wearing your Captain Fantastic suit with your x-ray vision to see through his coat, and your amazing mind reading powers to understand why he keeps running. You knew he wasnt armed, Gorilla you have taken a step out of the woods, you are a genius, an exception to the rest of us mortals in the human race.
The tradgedy that comes out of this horrible but understandable mistake, is that we will crucify the police and in future they will not shoot, they will doubt themselves, they will not follow procedure and the next terrorist that sits on a train will activate their weapons. Imagine it Gorilla, sat on a tube with some terrorist who runs on chased by policemen. The terrorist sits next to you, you know this is going to be bad. The police say 'stop hands up', he ignores, he puts his hands inside the coat, the police say 'excuse me i say again please put your hands up, we are british and arnt really going to shoot you'. You are now thinking please shoot this mad ba****d, i want to see my family again. The police say, 'are you carrying a weapon underneath your coat', he says 'no - shukran' the police say 'ok thank you sir, sorry to bother you' and step off the train. Next thing Boom! What would your last thoughts be, perhaps'why didnt the police shoot him? But they the police werent sure enough to avoid a court case, imprisonment and loss of pension after the event. so best not to bother. If only they had your Captain Fantastic suit with x-ray vision and mind reading powers.
Angry you might be, but personal insults are not allowed, so you can have a couple of days off to think how to stay within the rules.
what an apt name. A beast on the lower edge of the evolutionary chain, with a very limited intelligence and an inability to reason anything.
Only good at sitting in the woods and scratching their arses.
So Captain Fantastic (Gorilla), you think do you that you could pursue a suspect suicide bomber only 24 hours since previous bombings. Someone who refuses to stop when challenged, who then runs into an underground station onto a train, wearing a bulky coat, and there are pax on the train. You have seconds to act before this individual activates the suspect bomb. Your tactics are pin down arms apart and kill with a head shot (it prevents inadvertant detonation in the event of a chest shot). You are scared, youve now got 1 second as he falls on the floor. Sadly for the police, you gorilla are not there wearing your Captain Fantastic suit with your x-ray vision to see through his coat, and your amazing mind reading powers to understand why he keeps running. You knew he wasnt armed, Gorilla you have taken a step out of the woods, you are a genius, an exception to the rest of us mortals in the human race.
The tradgedy that comes out of this horrible but understandable mistake, is that we will crucify the police and in future they will not shoot, they will doubt themselves, they will not follow procedure and the next terrorist that sits on a train will activate their weapons. Imagine it Gorilla, sat on a tube with some terrorist who runs on chased by policemen. The terrorist sits next to you, you know this is going to be bad. The police say 'stop hands up', he ignores, he puts his hands inside the coat, the police say 'excuse me i say again please put your hands up, we are british and arnt really going to shoot you'. You are now thinking please shoot this mad ba****d, i want to see my family again. The police say, 'are you carrying a weapon underneath your coat', he says 'no - shukran' the police say 'ok thank you sir, sorry to bother you' and step off the train. Next thing Boom! What would your last thoughts be, perhaps'why didnt the police shoot him? But they the police werent sure enough to avoid a court case, imprisonment and loss of pension after the event. so best not to bother. If only they had your Captain Fantastic suit with x-ray vision and mind reading powers.
Angry you might be, but personal insults are not allowed, so you can have a couple of days off to think how to stay within the rules.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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This is to be my last post on this board. It seems that reasoned arguments and discussion only turn into swearing and personal insults. Which is a shame as once this board had its usefulness.
Tigs 2 swearing is against the rules but I do agree with some of what you say (except the personal stuff!) But we cannot sacrifice who we are as a race just because we are apparently in unique times.
I leave you with these thoughts..
Why did we not pursue such a rigid shoot to kill policy in the unique times of the PIRA? How many PIRA killers could we have killed with a marksman at all those funerals in NI? PIRA has killed thousands more than a few homegrown bombers. What are the odds on four bombs not going off at once and don't for one minute try and tell me the four guys on CCTV from 21/7 are British born. Brazilians in my experience do not look like Al Quaeda Muslims!
Regards to all who know me
TG
Tigs 2 swearing is against the rules but I do agree with some of what you say (except the personal stuff!) But we cannot sacrifice who we are as a race just because we are apparently in unique times.
I leave you with these thoughts..
Why did we not pursue such a rigid shoot to kill policy in the unique times of the PIRA? How many PIRA killers could we have killed with a marksman at all those funerals in NI? PIRA has killed thousands more than a few homegrown bombers. What are the odds on four bombs not going off at once and don't for one minute try and tell me the four guys on CCTV from 21/7 are British born. Brazilians in my experience do not look like Al Quaeda Muslims!
Regards to all who know me
TG
Here I sit...not even having had my first cuppa of coffee...and I see Gorilla leaving because he cannot accept the fact others...several others do not accept his view of things and even find it preposterous.
Gorilla...the reason they are saying what they are to you....is because you are decidedly wrong on this one. Lord knows your detractors and I have had our own disagreements at times but this time I stand solidly with them in offering an opposing view to yours.
The Cops involved in this are Heroes in my book. That does not make the tragedy any the less for the man that was killed. To say the things you have about the police in this incident is simply offensive to rational people.
If you desire to leave....it is like they say in Atlanta..."Delta is Ready When You Are!" Adios Muchacho!
Gorilla...the reason they are saying what they are to you....is because you are decidedly wrong on this one. Lord knows your detractors and I have had our own disagreements at times but this time I stand solidly with them in offering an opposing view to yours.
The Cops involved in this are Heroes in my book. That does not make the tragedy any the less for the man that was killed. To say the things you have about the police in this incident is simply offensive to rational people.
If you desire to leave....it is like they say in Atlanta..."Delta is Ready When You Are!" Adios Muchacho!
Perhaps if the PIRA had also used suicide bombers with concealed bomb vests, they could have expected to receive similar treatment to that conducted by the armed police officers.
Oh -and goodbye.
Oh -and goodbye.
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Mmmm, wonder how out of date. I know you can legally stay over the limit on those with applications in progress, but looks like he might have been in the wrong there.
Still strikes me as odd that he would run from police if the issue was just an expired visa.
Still strikes me as odd that he would run from police if the issue was just an expired visa.
