Further London Explosions
This is not a police state (yet) and one simply cannot slaughter the civilian population and hide behind the excuse "He was given a warning" it's almost as lousy an excuse as "I was only following orders" subsequently proved to be...
What would any of us done? What if he hadn't fallen and made it onto the train, just in time to vapourise it and the pursuit team?
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Beagle,
For once I have to disagree with you.
The man concerned was not of UK extraction - hence the Police observation of him. It is entirely possible that he did not understand any warning given to him - AS ENGLISH WAS NOT HIS NATIVE LANGUAGE.
Just think of all those places around the World that you have visited where you would have had a similar problem with a warning given in the "local patois".
For once I have to disagree with you.
The man concerned was not of UK extraction - hence the Police observation of him. It is entirely possible that he did not understand any warning given to him - AS ENGLISH WAS NOT HIS NATIVE LANGUAGE.
Just think of all those places around the World that you have visited where you would have had a similar problem with a warning given in the "local patois".
It is entirely possible that he did not understand any warning given to him -
If I was of foreign extraction, and I knew that suicide bombers were blowing up tube trains, that is the LAST direction I would run away in.
The death of an innocent person is regrettable, but as Mr Spock would concur, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
Maybe this is a good warning to would be fanatics, f**k up and you still die, but no virgins in heaven for you.
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The person concerned may well have been an Illegal Immigrant; but that is not a Capital Offence. If so, he could well have been unaware of the atrocities that had been committed (due to a language barrier) and assumed that he had been discovered and would be deported. He ran.
Certainly the reporting of the Incident has altered significantly. Yesterday, the news programmes were stating that the man was "under observation"(as part of the investigation into the attempted atrocities) when this Incident happened. Today there is no mention of him being "under observation" - just that he failed to stop when challenged.
Certainly the reporting of the Incident has altered significantly. Yesterday, the news programmes were stating that the man was "under observation"(as part of the investigation into the attempted atrocities) when this Incident happened. Today there is no mention of him being "under observation" - just that he failed to stop when challenged.
The next thing you'll be saying is that he might have been from Mars....
No-one in London could possibly have been unaware of the terrorist activity which happened in the same borough less than 24 hours earlier......
No-one in London could possibly have been unaware of the terrorist activity which happened in the same borough less than 24 hours earlier......
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I think that Private Clegg might beg to differ on that one!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/4678029.stm
ROE in N Ireland for the army on a VCP and ROE for SO19 against a possible suicide bombers are different, just in case you didn't know......
Red On, Green On
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BBC now reporting that the person shot at Stockwell is thought to be Brazillian.
From the report: "John O'Connor, former commander of the Met Police, told the BBC the consequences of the shooting were likely to be "quite horrendous".
He said he expected officers to face criminal charges, and other officers could even refuse to carry weapons. " "
Maple 01 - SO19 is now CO19
From the report: "John O'Connor, former commander of the Met Police, told the BBC the consequences of the shooting were likely to be "quite horrendous".
He said he expected officers to face criminal charges, and other officers could even refuse to carry weapons. " "
Maple 01 - SO19 is now CO19
Suspicion breeds confidence
The officer concerned deserves a medal. If they were illegals, then we need to start chucking them out by the plane load. BEagle has hit the nail on the head. The gloves are off. Speaking as a Londoner, I want the Met to shoot first and ask questions later WHENEVER the safety of the public at large is threatened by these traitors.
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Wonderful!
Retired Met officers making pronouncements on the BBC when the full facts are not known. He more than most should have known better... inflamed passions could be, and no doubt will be, increased by statements such as these.
A tragedy for all: the family of the slain man and for the police concerned.
Who amongst us would not have made a similar decision given the same circumstances?
Retired Met officers making pronouncements on the BBC when the full facts are not known. He more than most should have known better... inflamed passions could be, and no doubt will be, increased by statements such as these.
A tragedy for all: the family of the slain man and for the police concerned.
Who amongst us would not have made a similar decision given the same circumstances?
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I am only playing Devil's Advocate.... It wasn't a war crime because although this is a war on terror errrr we're not at war
As soon as the statistics say that we are more likely to get wasted by a 'gun totin cop' over 'Tommy Terrorist' then I'm afraid that they have won...and we will be a police state like it or not.
cazatou has hit the nail on the head - This was an unlawful killing and ranks alongside the 'chair leg' incident, the details of which escape me now but needless to say the two oficers are up for murder!
I suspect that Tony Blair's policy of hanging out to dry anyone who's spur of the moment actions might reflect badly on him are coming to a head - I suspect that soon our security forces will stop playing his little game... and then, to quote Sir R. Mottram "We're all fu***d
Navaleye - when you say shoot first and ask questions afterwards, I take it that doesn't apply to Mrs Navaleye?
As soon as the statistics say that we are more likely to get wasted by a 'gun totin cop' over 'Tommy Terrorist' then I'm afraid that they have won...and we will be a police state like it or not.
cazatou has hit the nail on the head - This was an unlawful killing and ranks alongside the 'chair leg' incident, the details of which escape me now but needless to say the two oficers are up for murder!
I suspect that Tony Blair's policy of hanging out to dry anyone who's spur of the moment actions might reflect badly on him are coming to a head - I suspect that soon our security forces will stop playing his little game... and then, to quote Sir R. Mottram "We're all fu***d
Navaleye - when you say shoot first and ask questions afterwards, I take it that doesn't apply to Mrs Navaleye?
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Letsby Avenue and all those who feel we are on the way to a police state.
May we just look at the definition of a police state: it is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.
This is the sort of thing Islamists want. I think we have long way to go before a police state so could we possibly avoid such emotive statements.
May we just look at the definition of a police state: it is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.
This is the sort of thing Islamists want. I think we have long way to go before a police state so could we possibly avoid such emotive statements.
Rubbish, Letsby - nothing like the 1999 Hackney shooting of Harry Stanley with his chair leg in a plastic bag which police officers thought was a sawn-off shotgun being aimed at them.....
The Stockwell shooting was less than 24 hours after an attempted terrorist outrage of which everyone in London was fully aware.
If you run when told to stop and stand still by armed officers in such circumstances, you can expect to die.
Which part of that is unclear?
The Stockwell shooting was less than 24 hours after an attempted terrorist outrage of which everyone in London was fully aware.
If you run when told to stop and stand still by armed officers in such circumstances, you can expect to die.
Which part of that is unclear?
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Nutcracker - i think you have summed up Labour Lite policy in one.
I find Blair and his government quite sinister in the way that they go about their business. It makes me cringe everytime we handover yet another civil liberty, without a murmur of dissent even though 80% of the country didn't vote for him.
Beagle - still unlawful though..
I find Blair and his government quite sinister in the way that they go about their business. It makes me cringe everytime we handover yet another civil liberty, without a murmur of dissent even though 80% of the country didn't vote for him.
Beagle - still unlawful though..
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I actually typed a huge reply and then 'all of a sudden' couldn't be bothered - go to the Liberty site and read it for yourself.
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....errorism.shtml
Bit of luck our Tone decided to freeload his hols somewhere other than Sharm Al-Sheikh this year what.... Obviously a coincidence, I mean they wouldn't be out to get our whiter than white Tony now - would they?
Couldn't help notice that our slightly dim but nevertheless erstwhile Charles Clark has decided that this is a perfect opportunity for a holiday - well done Charles... we are certainly safer without you...!
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....errorism.shtml
Bit of luck our Tone decided to freeload his hols somewhere other than Sharm Al-Sheikh this year what.... Obviously a coincidence, I mean they wouldn't be out to get our whiter than white Tony now - would they?
Couldn't help notice that our slightly dim but nevertheless erstwhile Charles Clark has decided that this is a perfect opportunity for a holiday - well done Charles... we are certainly safer without you...!
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Maple
Sgt Clegg still served a number of years in prison and as the judge said at his trial "I make the law not the MOD" Just because SO19's rules of engagement permit the execution of innocents does not make it lawful. I would not blame muslims for arming themselves given the current shoot to kill policy. Funny how these new RoE's are unpublished in a democracy.
I expect those officers concerned to be tried for murder and if found guilty sentenced to life in prison. Of course I wont hold my breath waiting for that to happen in Bliars Britain of today.
Sgt Clegg still served a number of years in prison and as the judge said at his trial "I make the law not the MOD" Just because SO19's rules of engagement permit the execution of innocents does not make it lawful. I would not blame muslims for arming themselves given the current shoot to kill policy. Funny how these new RoE's are unpublished in a democracy.
I expect those officers concerned to be tried for murder and if found guilty sentenced to life in prison. Of course I wont hold my breath waiting for that to happen in Bliars Britain of today.
TAC Int Bloke
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ROEs are run past a legal team, Clegg’s actions were deemed at the time to be outside the then current ROE, slightly different I'd suggest to CO19s (thanks) actions
According to the BBC
So I trump your judge with an Appeal Judge! Miscarriage of justice – I assume you’ll be calling for his dismissal?
Sorry, rest of your post makes no sense to me - you seem to be giving the impression that the UK is a police state - I've seen one or two up close - Britain ain't one.
According to the BBC
He was cleared of the charges following a retrial in 1999.
Sorry, rest of your post makes no sense to me - you seem to be giving the impression that the UK is a police state - I've seen one or two up close - Britain ain't one.
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"Anti Terrorism measures have done little to ensure Britain is safe and secure from terrorist attack, but much to infringe the civil liberties of those living in the UK. etc etc etc"
It was a state of civil liberty that allowed the suicide bombers to travel and study terrorist techniques, to manufacture, deliver and detonate their bombs. That caused 50+ innocents to lose their lives. Who was looking after their civil liberties?
Life in London, and possibly throughout Britain changed with the bombings in London, we just don't know by how much yet.
Save me from the Bleeding Hearts Brigade. In doing so you just might save me from those who wish me harm.
It was a state of civil liberty that allowed the suicide bombers to travel and study terrorist techniques, to manufacture, deliver and detonate their bombs. That caused 50+ innocents to lose their lives. Who was looking after their civil liberties?
Life in London, and possibly throughout Britain changed with the bombings in London, we just don't know by how much yet.
Save me from the Bleeding Hearts Brigade. In doing so you just might save me from those who wish me harm.
Interesting that the judge said that - judges do *not* make the law, surely (that's parliament's job)?, I always thought that Lord Denning said that they interpet it. (For instance, if judges made the law, the mandatory life sentence for murder would not exist).
According to the Torygraph today:
Link here (but requires [free] registration) .
I'm sure that Standto, if he wishes, can comment on the accuracy of that. It would appear, though, that the ROE aren't hidden, per se , but in that rather grey area whereby a decision made in an instant is subjected to much second, third and fourth guessing. In any event, the facts that we have at the moment are pretty confused bar the fact that a man was shot dead.
According to the Torygraph today:
The police, unlike the Army, do not have ''rules of engagement'' that dictate how they should use force. Ultimate responsibility in law for pulling the trigger lies with the individual officer. In broad terms, reflecting human rights legislation, the force used by police must be proportionate to the threat.
I'm sure that Standto, if he wishes, can comment on the accuracy of that. It would appear, though, that the ROE aren't hidden, per se , but in that rather grey area whereby a decision made in an instant is subjected to much second, third and fourth guessing. In any event, the facts that we have at the moment are pretty confused bar the fact that a man was shot dead.