New Pension Scheme
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Toxteth,
Fair point, in purely monetary terms you may well be >30k better off, however, and just trying to present a balanced arguement, rather than a p£$$ing contest...
If you retire at 55 and invest the extra 25% into savings, an annual net return of 5% will give you approx 25k over the 10 years. I still would suggest that the money is more use to most people while they are 55-65, rather than waiting till age 65 before getting the money.
Most people can expect to be still relatively fit and healthy when they retire from the military, the same cannot be guraranteed 10 years after retirement. It is a gamble.
Fair point, in purely monetary terms you may well be >30k better off, however, and just trying to present a balanced arguement, rather than a p£$$ing contest...
If you retire at 55 and invest the extra 25% into savings, an annual net return of 5% will give you approx 25k over the 10 years. I still would suggest that the money is more use to most people while they are 55-65, rather than waiting till age 65 before getting the money.
Most people can expect to be still relatively fit and healthy when they retire from the military, the same cannot be guraranteed 10 years after retirement. It is a gamble.
The Government (and, I expect, future ones) have been mooting the idea of retirement at 67 instead of 65. Might the result of such a policy be that the final pension and lump sum paid under AFPS 05 would also become deferred to age 67?
I've no evidence to support this view - anyone know any better?
I've no evidence to support this view - anyone know any better?
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Hello Again!
Back from jaunt overseas. Obviously quite a bit to catch up on here!
Stanley Eevil: Check your PMs
The bit about defering your decision on the basis of opting back in to the AFPS is a red herring, if you never opted out in the first place. That is something you can only do on first joining, and you have to do it within 6 months. This OTT process is not an opt in/opt out point in the same sense. Sorry to disappoint.
Hope to catch up with other points when time permits.
Regards
Ginseng
Stanley Eevil: Check your PMs
The bit about defering your decision on the basis of opting back in to the AFPS is a red herring, if you never opted out in the first place. That is something you can only do on first joining, and you have to do it within 6 months. This OTT process is not an opt in/opt out point in the same sense. Sorry to disappoint.
Hope to catch up with other points when time permits.
Regards
Ginseng
Blame My Parrot
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AB,
I believe it is a Society rather than Association - try here . You could also try the Veterans Agency (www.veteransagency.mod.uk).
VG
I believe it is a Society rather than Association - try here . You could also try the Veterans Agency (www.veteransagency.mod.uk).
VG
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The Forces Pension Society
68 South Lambeth Rd
London
SW8 1RL
Tel 020 7820 9988
www.forpen.co.uk
They also give a very good financial brief as part of the resettlement program.
Y_G
68 South Lambeth Rd
London
SW8 1RL
Tel 020 7820 9988
www.forpen.co.uk
They also give a very good financial brief as part of the resettlement program.
Y_G
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Ginseng
Please check (again!) your PMs. Cheers!!
Ginseng,
Have a look at the following link:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/profav.pdf
This is the original PA Spine paper dated Jan 03. Have a look at Annex C-1:
It gives an enhancement rate (2003 data) of £0.647 per day on the PA Spine which is added to the existing Flt Lt Spec Aircrew or Sqn Ldr basic pension rates.
This has now increased (presumably at roughly the same rate as our annual pay awards) to £0.707 on 2005 pay scales. It cannot possibly have jumped to £1.044!! In short, I therefore cannot accept your statement that the incorrect enhancements have been used on the on-line calculator.
Please check (again!) your PMs. Cheers!!
Ginseng,
Have a look at the following link:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/profav.pdf
This is the original PA Spine paper dated Jan 03. Have a look at Annex C-1:
It gives an enhancement rate (2003 data) of £0.647 per day on the PA Spine which is added to the existing Flt Lt Spec Aircrew or Sqn Ldr basic pension rates.
This has now increased (presumably at roughly the same rate as our annual pay awards) to £0.707 on 2005 pay scales. It cannot possibly have jumped to £1.044!! In short, I therefore cannot accept your statement that the incorrect enhancements have been used on the on-line calculator.
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Stanley
Those were indicative shadow rates based on 2002 pension codes and quoted prior to the announcement of the 2003/4 pay and pension awards and before the PAS came into being. The current (2005/6) pilot OF2 rate is £1.044 per day as PAS. If, as you contend, this is not the appropriate rate for RAF Flt Lt PAS pilots, then who do you propose that it applies to? I stand by my statement. Down4Reprogram may wish to chip in here, as he and I were involved in this very discussion, and he sought confirmation of the error from official channels.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Ginseng,
Thanks for replying - I really value your input on this issue. Believe me, I would be delighted if £1.044 was the correct enhancement rate for PA Spine Flt Lts, and I hope you are correct, but AFPAA told me it was £0.707 - (yes I know that they make plenty of cock ups). My `difficulty` with all of this is the current Sqn Ldr AFPS 75 enhancement rate of £0.705. From a common `base level` pension of approx £24000 at age 55 under AFPS 75, why are ex Spec Aircrew Flt Lts on the PA Spine getting a significantly bigger enhancement than former Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldrs?
As an aside, the Forces Pension Society sent me an independent 3rd party calculation of my benefits under AFPS 75. It was virtually identical to the on-line calculator which, they claim, is correct. Look forward to your reply.
Thanks for replying - I really value your input on this issue. Believe me, I would be delighted if £1.044 was the correct enhancement rate for PA Spine Flt Lts, and I hope you are correct, but AFPAA told me it was £0.707 - (yes I know that they make plenty of cock ups). My `difficulty` with all of this is the current Sqn Ldr AFPS 75 enhancement rate of £0.705. From a common `base level` pension of approx £24000 at age 55 under AFPS 75, why are ex Spec Aircrew Flt Lts on the PA Spine getting a significantly bigger enhancement than former Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldrs?
As an aside, the Forces Pension Society sent me an independent 3rd party calculation of my benefits under AFPS 75. It was virtually identical to the on-line calculator which, they claim, is correct. Look forward to your reply.
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Stanley
Then who do the Forces Pension Society believe the £1.044 should apply to? I can't see anyone else. Can you? Unless someone can answer that question, I can see no reason to change my position.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Ginseng,
Thanks for the reply. I will phone AFPAA again and see what they say. I `ll specifically mention the £1.044 rate if I get the same answer as before. Will keep you posted.
Thanks for the reply. I will phone AFPAA again and see what they say. I `ll specifically mention the £1.044 rate if I get the same answer as before. Will keep you posted.
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Stanley and Ginseng,
Sorry I've been unavoidably away for a little while.
The PA Supplements are published each year by "Directed Letter". I found the latest version on the Intranet at work before I left, but couldn't find it on the website. I seem to remember I had to go to the Corporate Comms webpage, then look at the archive links to find a link to "2005 pension rates". AP3392 Vol 2 only gives the basic pension values not the supplements.
This years values are:
Pilot
Spec Aircrew £0.707
OF2 (Flt Lt) £1.044
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.705
Navigator
Spec Aircrew £0.523
OF2 £0.860
OF3 £0.521
Rearcrew
Spec Aircrew £0.449
OF2 £0.786
OF3 £0.447
All supplements are per day on the PAS.
My conversations with the Pension Gurus at Glasgow (not the Call Centre folk but the ones who actually seem to know) say that as PA you get either the OF2 or OF3 rate depending on your rank at retirement. As PA you should never get the Spec Aircrew figure - even if you PVR and leave before age 55. Unfortunately, the online calculator seems to use the Spec Aircrew rate for AFPS75.
A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.
Just in case I've made a complete mess of the figures I'll check again when I get back in work next week.
D4R
Sorry I've been unavoidably away for a little while.
The PA Supplements are published each year by "Directed Letter". I found the latest version on the Intranet at work before I left, but couldn't find it on the website. I seem to remember I had to go to the Corporate Comms webpage, then look at the archive links to find a link to "2005 pension rates". AP3392 Vol 2 only gives the basic pension values not the supplements.
This years values are:
Pilot
Spec Aircrew £0.707
OF2 (Flt Lt) £1.044
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.705
Navigator
Spec Aircrew £0.523
OF2 £0.860
OF3 £0.521
Rearcrew
Spec Aircrew £0.449
OF2 £0.786
OF3 £0.447
All supplements are per day on the PAS.
My conversations with the Pension Gurus at Glasgow (not the Call Centre folk but the ones who actually seem to know) say that as PA you get either the OF2 or OF3 rate depending on your rank at retirement. As PA you should never get the Spec Aircrew figure - even if you PVR and leave before age 55. Unfortunately, the online calculator seems to use the Spec Aircrew rate for AFPS75.
A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.
Just in case I've made a complete mess of the figures I'll check again when I get back in work next week.
D4R
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My conversations with the Pension Gurus at Glasgow (not the Call Centre folk but the ones who actually seem to know) say that as PA you get either the OF2 or OF3 rate depending on your rank at retirement. As PA you should never get the Spec Aircrew figure - even if you PVR and leave before age 55. Unfortunately, the online calculator seems to use the Spec Aircrew rate for AFPS75.
A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.
Down 4 Reprogram
Thanks for your input. How totally bizarre that a Sqn Ldr PA Spine pilot will get £2000 less pension per year than a PA Spine Flt Lt, even though they have the same reckonable service and the same `base level` pension at age 55 (approx £24000).
Another reward for accepting promotion obviously.
Any chance you can find that enhancement rate link and post it here?
A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.
Down 4 Reprogram
Thanks for your input. How totally bizarre that a Sqn Ldr PA Spine pilot will get £2000 less pension per year than a PA Spine Flt Lt, even though they have the same reckonable service and the same `base level` pension at age 55 (approx £24000).
Another reward for accepting promotion obviously.
Any chance you can find that enhancement rate link and post it here?
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Ginseng, pse check PMs
Further to my last post, I have phoned AFPAA again today and spoken to a key player in the pension policy department. I believe I am now clear on what the situation is regarding PA pension enhancements under AFPS 75:
The OF2 enhancement rate of £1.044 for pilots does indeed exist as stated by Ginseng, but NOBODY serving in the RAF will receive this rate. The OF2 in question is a Royal Navy (RN) Flt Lt equivilant (i.e a Lieutenant).
This is because the RN does not have our reserved rights to the `Specialist Aircrew Flt Lt` band for pension purposes on transfer to the PA Spine. So the maximum basic pension that a Lt can therefore achieve at age 55 with 34 years reckonable service (before any enhancements) is £19882 (the same as an RAF ground branch Flt Lt). In other words, a RN Lieutenant who joins the PA Spine is effectively about £4100 behind us in pension terms at age 55 before any PA enhancements. This was eventually deemed to be `unfair` when the PA spine was being formulated and so the RN was given a bigger daily enhancement rate (£1.044/day) to try and restore some of the balance at age 55. Even after that, the RAF Flt Lt is still better off as you will see shortly.
The on-line pension calculator is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in all respects (apart from not crediting `part years`) and does use the £1.044 rate for RN PA Lt pilots only, the £0.707 rate for RAF Flt Lts and the £0.705 rate for Sqn Ldrs. Try it for yourself.
Some illustrative calculations:
1. RAF Flt Lt pilot with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:
AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £0.707) + £23982 = £27595
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627
2. RN Lt with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:
AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £1.044) + £19882 = £25217
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627
It clearly follows that RAF PA Spine Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs will indeed get very similar pensions in AFPS 75 because of the almost identical enhancement rates. Hope this helps.
Further to my last post, I have phoned AFPAA again today and spoken to a key player in the pension policy department. I believe I am now clear on what the situation is regarding PA pension enhancements under AFPS 75:
The OF2 enhancement rate of £1.044 for pilots does indeed exist as stated by Ginseng, but NOBODY serving in the RAF will receive this rate. The OF2 in question is a Royal Navy (RN) Flt Lt equivilant (i.e a Lieutenant).
This is because the RN does not have our reserved rights to the `Specialist Aircrew Flt Lt` band for pension purposes on transfer to the PA Spine. So the maximum basic pension that a Lt can therefore achieve at age 55 with 34 years reckonable service (before any enhancements) is £19882 (the same as an RAF ground branch Flt Lt). In other words, a RN Lieutenant who joins the PA Spine is effectively about £4100 behind us in pension terms at age 55 before any PA enhancements. This was eventually deemed to be `unfair` when the PA spine was being formulated and so the RN was given a bigger daily enhancement rate (£1.044/day) to try and restore some of the balance at age 55. Even after that, the RAF Flt Lt is still better off as you will see shortly.
The on-line pension calculator is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in all respects (apart from not crediting `part years`) and does use the £1.044 rate for RN PA Lt pilots only, the £0.707 rate for RAF Flt Lts and the £0.705 rate for Sqn Ldrs. Try it for yourself.
Some illustrative calculations:
1. RAF Flt Lt pilot with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:
AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £0.707) + £23982 = £27595
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627
2. RN Lt with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:
AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £1.044) + £19882 = £25217
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627
It clearly follows that RAF PA Spine Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs will indeed get very similar pensions in AFPS 75 because of the almost identical enhancement rates. Hope this helps.
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Stanley,
Your explanation makes complete sense. However, it looks like the Pensions Dept is putting out some very conflicting information. On both the occasions that I have spoken to them they have said that as an RAF Flt Lt PA I would get the OF2 supplement that you have been told would only be paid to the RN!
I'll speak to them again on Monday and see if the story has changed. If the "experts" in the field can't agree about what we would be paid for a pension then how are we mere mortals expected to work it out and make an informed decision? - rant over, back in my box.
D4R
Your explanation makes complete sense. However, it looks like the Pensions Dept is putting out some very conflicting information. On both the occasions that I have spoken to them they have said that as an RAF Flt Lt PA I would get the OF2 supplement that you have been told would only be paid to the RN!
I'll speak to them again on Monday and see if the story has changed. If the "experts" in the field can't agree about what we would be paid for a pension then how are we mere mortals expected to work it out and make an informed decision? - rant over, back in my box.
D4R
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D4R
I agree entirely; the whole thing is a complete mess. I have just received a pension forecast in the post this morning from AFPAA which gives me (at age 55) on AFPS 75 just the `base`Spec Aircrew Flt Lt pension rate of approximately £24000 and NO PA ENHANCEMENTS WHATSOEVER, let alone £0.707 or £1.044!!
The pensions guru from the policy unit who phoned me at work yesterday was very helpful and clearly knew his subject inside-out. I am 100% sure that my last post is correct - in other words you CAN have confidence in the on-line pension calculator, apart from its inability to calculate `part years`of reckonable service.
The biggest clue that it MUST be right is that it would be untenable for a PA Flt Lt pilot to be able to retire at 55 with a pension £2100 more than a PA Sqn Ldr - nobody would accept promotion!
Also, the Forces Pension Society`s independent calculation was consistent with the £0.707 rate too.
Ginseng - your thoughts?
I agree entirely; the whole thing is a complete mess. I have just received a pension forecast in the post this morning from AFPAA which gives me (at age 55) on AFPS 75 just the `base`Spec Aircrew Flt Lt pension rate of approximately £24000 and NO PA ENHANCEMENTS WHATSOEVER, let alone £0.707 or £1.044!!
The pensions guru from the policy unit who phoned me at work yesterday was very helpful and clearly knew his subject inside-out. I am 100% sure that my last post is correct - in other words you CAN have confidence in the on-line pension calculator, apart from its inability to calculate `part years`of reckonable service.
The biggest clue that it MUST be right is that it would be untenable for a PA Flt Lt pilot to be able to retire at 55 with a pension £2100 more than a PA Sqn Ldr - nobody would accept promotion!
Also, the Forces Pension Society`s independent calculation was consistent with the £0.707 rate too.
Ginseng - your thoughts?
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Stanley Eevil
OK, I can see the logic in that answer, and if it is the truth then clearly I have to retract the accusation that the calculator is in error in this case. However, that leaves us with the problem that you and Down4Reprogram have now asked the same question of “experts” at the AFPAA and have been given completely contradictory answers. Meanwhile, I have been told (though not, I admit, by AFPAA) that the Spec Aircrew rates apply to the Army only. If you are right, then it begs the question why this confusion could not have been avoided simply by labelling the Pensions Letter Annex G table accurately to make it clear to whom each of the rates specifically applies. Frankly, I have to say that I now tend to be suspicious of the clarity and accuracy of most of the published data on this issue. Assuming that you have now been given the correct answer, then I apologise to all readers here if my previous posts have misled. I can only assure you that they were made with the best intentions and I believed them to be correct.
Regards
Ginseng
PS: Just athought on your last post. Having a Flt Lt receive a larger pension than a Sqn Ldr clearly is not untenable as far as MoD is concerned, since under AFPS05 a PAS Flt Lt can achieve a larger pension than a CS Sqn Ldr. As you say, who wants to get promoted now?
G
Regards
Ginseng
PS: Just athought on your last post. Having a Flt Lt receive a larger pension than a Sqn Ldr clearly is not untenable as far as MoD is concerned, since under AFPS05 a PAS Flt Lt can achieve a larger pension than a CS Sqn Ldr. As you say, who wants to get promoted now?
G