SAR going out to contract.
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Hummingfrog
You missed the main point of my arguement, i think certain people took their heads out of the sand and looked to make the best from this, all the crews will have to come from Raf/RN SAR crews and from what my new contract states they will be on far better money (what a bummer eh!!!), and when you are asked and not told to cover another shift coz someones ill, guess what they even pay you....LOTS.
After 20 years of towing the line it is an eye opener how well you are treated in civvy life.
You missed the main point of my arguement, i think certain people took their heads out of the sand and looked to make the best from this, all the crews will have to come from Raf/RN SAR crews and from what my new contract states they will be on far better money (what a bummer eh!!!), and when you are asked and not told to cover another shift coz someones ill, guess what they even pay you....LOTS.
After 20 years of towing the line it is an eye opener how well you are treated in civvy life.
SarGod....
I might suggest you contact some pilots that got dumped by the major operators based upon age.....before you crow about the good treatment you receive in the civilian world. Contracts go away....pilots go away too and not necessarily in a polite organized way. One outfit dumped 52 as I recall....and not in a gentlemanly manner either. Do some checking around.
I might suggest you contact some pilots that got dumped by the major operators based upon age.....before you crow about the good treatment you receive in the civilian world. Contracts go away....pilots go away too and not necessarily in a polite organized way. One outfit dumped 52 as I recall....and not in a gentlemanly manner either. Do some checking around.
Sargod
"when you are asked and not told to cover another shift coz someones ill, guess what they even pay you....LOTS."
You can't be going to Bond then
A SASless says there is no such thing as job security in our business. Lose the contract and you may lose your job as has happened quite recently in CHC. Same applies if you lose your medical - it is not like the forces where you may find a job in the RCC etc - it is thank you (if you are lucky) and bye bye.
From your profile I assume you are not a pilot so your pay will probably be more than rearcrew in the RAF - but remember you will have to fund your own pension out of your pay and the taxman loves taxing any perk such as BUPA or LOL. The Irish taxman is particularly avaricious
HF
"when you are asked and not told to cover another shift coz someones ill, guess what they even pay you....LOTS."
You can't be going to Bond then
A SASless says there is no such thing as job security in our business. Lose the contract and you may lose your job as has happened quite recently in CHC. Same applies if you lose your medical - it is not like the forces where you may find a job in the RCC etc - it is thank you (if you are lucky) and bye bye.
From your profile I assume you are not a pilot so your pay will probably be more than rearcrew in the RAF - but remember you will have to fund your own pension out of your pay and the taxman loves taxing any perk such as BUPA or LOL. The Irish taxman is particularly avaricious
HF
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civvy bitches
all you civvy fags out there aren't half a bunch of whinging big girls......ooooh two on two off........oooh smelly oil rigs.......oooh sharing a cabin, try being real men and stop whinging, most matlowes would think that routine was heaven.... you lot have obviously been moly coddled for too long
sasless and hummingfrog take note fannies !!!
sasless and hummingfrog take note fannies !!!
luvverboy
I wouldn't normally reply to a wind up from a fishead but I have time to spare sitting on this old rusty rig.
You are exactly the type of person the helicopter companies are looking for:-
Someone who will accept poor conditions because when he was in the military he slept on the floor/got treated like an animal/shared a cramped cabin with fellow men who smiled at him knowingly. He is now grateful for what ever scraps the company will throw his way - ooh leave who needs it in the Navy we were away at sea for X months at a time. Decent pay and conditions - ooh don't need those we used to hot bed and were gateful for the pay we got.
Grow up and join the real world where your skills are a commodity that can and do command a high price with good conditions.
You may, however, be disappointed as offshore we don't share cabins
HF
I wouldn't normally reply to a wind up from a fishead but I have time to spare sitting on this old rusty rig.
You are exactly the type of person the helicopter companies are looking for:-
Someone who will accept poor conditions because when he was in the military he slept on the floor/got treated like an animal/shared a cramped cabin with fellow men who smiled at him knowingly. He is now grateful for what ever scraps the company will throw his way - ooh leave who needs it in the Navy we were away at sea for X months at a time. Decent pay and conditions - ooh don't need those we used to hot bed and were gateful for the pay we got.
Grow up and join the real world where your skills are a commodity that can and do command a high price with good conditions.
You may, however, be disappointed as offshore we don't share cabins
HF
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Grow up and join the real world where your skills are a commodity that can and do command a high price with good conditions
Saw the first of 2 and more EC225's officially handed over to Bristows yesterday at Le Bourget...they left tha access gate open so us civvies just wandered in, enjoyed a freebie champers and watched as EC and Bristows schmarmed one another up...are these the one heading for Jigsaw?
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SASless:
If a company can provide SAR cheaper and make a profit, then surely there is scope for a Government Agency to do it for a lesser price, i.e without profit, hence even cheaper for the taxpayer. Unlikely, I know, but theoretically possible.
The CG would never change their contract as they have no jurisdiction above the high-tide mark. They want to keep their helicopters for themselves and any "sharing" would only reduce their cover. As soon as a helicopter is tasked inland, there's nobody to cover the sea (because there is usually only helicopter at each base and certainly no seconds crews).
If a tender for SAR cover was offered which required an equal standard to that provided by the military now, it would take any civvie company a long time to train crews and adapt helicopters to meet the same overland standards of today's military. The CAA would have to become inherently involved and permit special AOCs, which although I know they would do, they would need a lot of persuading. So, I admit, nothing is impossible. But is anybody willing to take the risk?
Now, lets look 10 years into the future. The military expertise has all left (to the civvie world). The civvies have to actually train new crews now as their supply has dried up. There is suddenly no more competition to the civvies and hey, guess what, the price for the service, which the government feels obliged to provide goes through the roof. How will the taxpayer feel now, with, no doubt, the profit margin increasing every time the contract is re-signed.
You are right, competition never hurts. A financial level playing ground would obviously show differences in cost, but when would the standards of civvie overland SAR meet those of the military on a level par? - years?, decades?
I still think the Govt Flying Service is still the best option and I'm wiling to fight my case. I can go on, but I'll stop here and see what you all think.
If a company can provide SAR cheaper and make a profit, then surely there is scope for a Government Agency to do it for a lesser price, i.e without profit, hence even cheaper for the taxpayer. Unlikely, I know, but theoretically possible.
The CG would never change their contract as they have no jurisdiction above the high-tide mark. They want to keep their helicopters for themselves and any "sharing" would only reduce their cover. As soon as a helicopter is tasked inland, there's nobody to cover the sea (because there is usually only helicopter at each base and certainly no seconds crews).
If a tender for SAR cover was offered which required an equal standard to that provided by the military now, it would take any civvie company a long time to train crews and adapt helicopters to meet the same overland standards of today's military. The CAA would have to become inherently involved and permit special AOCs, which although I know they would do, they would need a lot of persuading. So, I admit, nothing is impossible. But is anybody willing to take the risk?
Now, lets look 10 years into the future. The military expertise has all left (to the civvie world). The civvies have to actually train new crews now as their supply has dried up. There is suddenly no more competition to the civvies and hey, guess what, the price for the service, which the government feels obliged to provide goes through the roof. How will the taxpayer feel now, with, no doubt, the profit margin increasing every time the contract is re-signed.
You are right, competition never hurts. A financial level playing ground would obviously show differences in cost, but when would the standards of civvie overland SAR meet those of the military on a level par? - years?, decades?
I still think the Govt Flying Service is still the best option and I'm wiling to fight my case. I can go on, but I'll stop here and see what you all think.
The Mafia in this country (if not with the big M...certainly organized crime with a small m then...) tried the same thing in the garbage collection business. They would approach the local governments with ridulously low prices that undercut the local units costs by a bunch.....get the contract....hold the prices down until the government unit shed itself of all of its equipment and personnel....then the prices headed up quickly. The strategy was to keep the new prices well above the original government operation costs....but not so high the government could purchase a whole fleet of equipment and hire new personnel thus the taxpayer would lose and "organized" criminals would benefit.
Not saying that is the case in this situation but a similar situation could occur just as you describe. I would think honest competition by the various operators would work to defeat that concern however. Instead of the RAF/RN competing with private business....the competition would be between the private operators.
The RAF/RN would have to maintain a Combat SAR capability along with their other committments thus that expertise would not disappear from the RAF/RN skill sets by non-combat SAR going to the civvies in my view. I could see the military SAR units being a backup to the civvie SAR for domestic operations.
Not saying that is the case in this situation but a similar situation could occur just as you describe. I would think honest competition by the various operators would work to defeat that concern however. Instead of the RAF/RN competing with private business....the competition would be between the private operators.
The RAF/RN would have to maintain a Combat SAR capability along with their other committments thus that expertise would not disappear from the RAF/RN skill sets by non-combat SAR going to the civvies in my view. I could see the military SAR units being a backup to the civvie SAR for domestic operations.
Huey, yes. In fact, the Bond Jigsaw machine is in MRS at the moment (well was last week when I was there); not sure if post production testing or crew training.
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SASless makes a good point. We must reteain a Combat SAR cap. However, Im not sure that his appreciation of the Civvy SAR units stands up. Bristows helicopters have been slowly taking over the SAR task for the UK for the past 10 years. First it was Stornoway then Lee, then Portland...(i might have got my order wrong there) but the point is that 15 years ago the Military used to conduct ALL SAR operations in this country and now they do less than half.....
Maybe its time to give up the last remnants we have over to a cheaper option.
Maybe its time to give up the last remnants we have over to a cheaper option.
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Mallardpi,
The CG machines already do alot of work over land.
They are already manned by a significant number of civvie trained crews up to the highest level.
The CAA are already involved - how do you think Bristow's and CHC have been providing civillian based SAR since the 70s?
There is already significant commercial competition in the market place to keep prices down.
As for experience, I think you will find that some civvy sar copilots have more years SAR experience than some military SAR captains, virtually all the civvy crewmen have a full military service behind them plus the civvy world since leaving and there are enough ex mil instructors in civvy street to allow training for NVG and any other relevant specialisation.
There are many on this forum who have no confidence in the civvy system. How many of them will be swallowing their "pride" and knocking on Mr Bristow's/ CHC/ Bond's door looking for a job when the leave the mob?
The CG machines already do alot of work over land.
They are already manned by a significant number of civvie trained crews up to the highest level.
The CAA are already involved - how do you think Bristow's and CHC have been providing civillian based SAR since the 70s?
There is already significant commercial competition in the market place to keep prices down.
As for experience, I think you will find that some civvy sar copilots have more years SAR experience than some military SAR captains, virtually all the civvy crewmen have a full military service behind them plus the civvy world since leaving and there are enough ex mil instructors in civvy street to allow training for NVG and any other relevant specialisation.
There are many on this forum who have no confidence in the civvy system. How many of them will be swallowing their "pride" and knocking on Mr Bristow's/ CHC/ Bond's door looking for a job when the leave the mob?
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VecVechookattack!
[First it was Stornoway then Lee, then Portland...(i might have got my order wrong there) but the point is that 15 years ago the Military used to conduct ALL SAR operations in this country and now they do less than half.....]
Take your shoes and socks off and do some sums. Coastgaurd have four flights, military have six RAF and two navy which when I went to school comes to eight military flights. Strikes me that the military have more than half the flights. And I have worked SAR both sides of the fence military & civil.
[First it was Stornoway then Lee, then Portland...(i might have got my order wrong there) but the point is that 15 years ago the Military used to conduct ALL SAR operations in this country and now they do less than half.....]
Take your shoes and socks off and do some sums. Coastgaurd have four flights, military have six RAF and two navy which when I went to school comes to eight military flights. Strikes me that the military have more than half the flights. And I have worked SAR both sides of the fence military & civil.
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Droopystop
"Virtually all the civvie crewmen have a full military service behind them"
So this is where the civvies beneift by not having to train virually all their rearcrew; a massive cost saving. If the mil give up SAR for good, then what will happen to the cost of civvie SAR as they will have to expend hours of training for rearcrew? It will undoubtedly rise. Then apples will be apples.
"They [CG machines] are already manned by a significant number of civvie trained crews up to the highest level.
The CAA are already involved - how do you think Bristow's and CHC have been providing civillian based SAR since the 70s?"
I do not dispute that Civvie SAR sometimes works overland, but only when the CG releases them to work for another agency. But are they trained to the highest level? Which of the CG SAR crews is authorised to work below 500ft agl overland at night on NVG? Yes the CAA are involved, obviously, but have they given SAR operators the remit to use NVG overland?
Oh and by the way to keep the current discussion in context, I have not said civvies could not provide the same service as Mil crews currently do. Civvies could, but it will cost them a lot more and I'm not sure they're willing to do this.
"Virtually all the civvie crewmen have a full military service behind them"
So this is where the civvies beneift by not having to train virually all their rearcrew; a massive cost saving. If the mil give up SAR for good, then what will happen to the cost of civvie SAR as they will have to expend hours of training for rearcrew? It will undoubtedly rise. Then apples will be apples.
"They [CG machines] are already manned by a significant number of civvie trained crews up to the highest level.
The CAA are already involved - how do you think Bristow's and CHC have been providing civillian based SAR since the 70s?"
I do not dispute that Civvie SAR sometimes works overland, but only when the CG releases them to work for another agency. But are they trained to the highest level? Which of the CG SAR crews is authorised to work below 500ft agl overland at night on NVG? Yes the CAA are involved, obviously, but have they given SAR operators the remit to use NVG overland?
Oh and by the way to keep the current discussion in context, I have not said civvies could not provide the same service as Mil crews currently do. Civvies could, but it will cost them a lot more and I'm not sure they're willing to do this.
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Mallardpi,
I agree that to provide the exact same onshore capability, the CG contract prices will go up. But the prices would not double, let alone get close to the cost that the military stump up for SAR. Time will tell about how long it will take civvy sar crews to get operational NVG capability. But if that is what the MCA want, that is what they will get. On time. Don't forget that the military have a long lead time for new kit too.
I agree that to provide the exact same onshore capability, the CG contract prices will go up. But the prices would not double, let alone get close to the cost that the military stump up for SAR. Time will tell about how long it will take civvy sar crews to get operational NVG capability. But if that is what the MCA want, that is what they will get. On time. Don't forget that the military have a long lead time for new kit too.