SAR going out to contract.
Freeride - so you are not SAR then - if you are then say so, if not then stop stirring on a subject you know little about. As usual, those that know little of NVG ops are the quickest to denounce the need for them. You jibe about the big world of professional aviation (intimating that the military was not a part of that) was the one that started any pi**ing contest.
Of course Brintel could do the FI job - if only they were allowed to we would be very happy as the dets are a pain.
Of course Brintel could do the FI job - if only they were allowed to we would be very happy as the dets are a pain.
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RAFLOO.
Re Prestwick RN deatchment being disbanded.....
Obviously you know something I don't, pretty surprising as I am based at pretwick and have heard no such rumour (although it is true that the maintainence is to be civilianised in 2007).
Mind you it would work well for me if it does go - I am outside back end of 2007, please let your "friend" in Bristows know.
Any more rumours please post them here so I can let everyone here else know.
fatobs
Re Prestwick RN deatchment being disbanded.....
Obviously you know something I don't, pretty surprising as I am based at pretwick and have heard no such rumour (although it is true that the maintainence is to be civilianised in 2007).
Mind you it would work well for me if it does go - I am outside back end of 2007, please let your "friend" in Bristows know.
Any more rumours please post them here so I can let everyone here else know.
fatobs
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Freeride - so you are not SAR then - if you are then say so, if not then stop stirring on a subject you know little about
Freeride - the Tiger thread was pi**taking and banter - I think some of the SH guys were more 'delicate' than me (are you amongst them?).
As to being a Beefer, surely you know our maxim - R C P means
Ridicule, Criticise, Patronise - and win the debrief at all costs!
As to being a Beefer, surely you know our maxim - R C P means
Ridicule, Criticise, Patronise - and win the debrief at all costs!
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Ah Crab, I recognise that, they call it humour I think. Thanks for enlightening me!
ZH, without the FI there is no reason for SAR to remain military and with £18bn more cuts coming....
ZH, without the FI there is no reason for SAR to remain military and with £18bn more cuts coming....
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From the Sunday Telegraph
Sea and air rescue will be sold by Government
By Sylvia Pfeifer (Filed: 29/05/2005)
Rescue missions in Britain's seas and mountains could soon be operated by the private sector under plans being drawn up by the Government.
The Ministry of Defence is expected to put Britain's search and rescue operations out to tender within the next 12 months under a private finance initiative that could be worth as much as £1bn.
Search and rescue activities are currently handled from 12 stations around the country by a combination of the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA).
The RAF's distinctive yellow Sea King helicopters are due to be withdrawn from service in the next few years and under the plans the PFI contract would cover both the crews and the helicopters for all search and rescue activities.
The service exists primarily to assist military and civilian air crews who get into difficulty, but a large proportion of the work involves assisting shipping or people who find themselves in difficulties both on land and at sea.
Thought that the mighty Queens were going on until at least 2014?
By Sylvia Pfeifer (Filed: 29/05/2005)
Rescue missions in Britain's seas and mountains could soon be operated by the private sector under plans being drawn up by the Government.
The Ministry of Defence is expected to put Britain's search and rescue operations out to tender within the next 12 months under a private finance initiative that could be worth as much as £1bn.
Search and rescue activities are currently handled from 12 stations around the country by a combination of the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA).
The RAF's distinctive yellow Sea King helicopters are due to be withdrawn from service in the next few years and under the plans the PFI contract would cover both the crews and the helicopters for all search and rescue activities.
The service exists primarily to assist military and civilian air crews who get into difficulty, but a large proportion of the work involves assisting shipping or people who find themselves in difficulties both on land and at sea.
Thought that the mighty Queens were going on until at least 2014?
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Also as reported by the BBC this morning....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4598701.stm
CVs in a plain brown envelope to.........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4598701.stm
CVs in a plain brown envelope to.........
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It seems the cornish fishernmen only want to be rescued by the Navy and not by superior helicopters flown by Former Navy guys....very odd. The comment from the MP is a disgrace....
....it clearly is broke.....
If it aint broke, dont fix it
Saint Evil - are you near St Eval by any chance? The mighty Queen is supposed to go on to 2017 but unless something magical happens to the serviceability, I think this is unlikely.
Problem - SAR has a very limited military function and is non-deployable, it costs a lot to run and the platform (Sea King) is an old design with aging avionics and electrics and a known cracking problem.
Answer - let industry provide a new platform/mix of platforms.
Problem - where does industry get the crews?
Answer - Use military crews or a mix of mil and civvy crews.
Problem - will MOD sanction the use of mil pilots for non mil purposes?
Answer - No - make them redundant and let the PFI offer them jobs at less than market rates because they will all have pensions. This eases the need to downsize the military to meet the new defence budget cuts.
Problem - where will the SAR aircraft be based?
Answer - give the PFI all the current locations/hangars etc so the PFI bid looks cheaper on paper than the military cost of providing.
Problem - what about the cost to the taxpayer?
Answer - start charging people to be rescued to offset the costs.
Bye bye Military SAR
Problem - SAR has a very limited military function and is non-deployable, it costs a lot to run and the platform (Sea King) is an old design with aging avionics and electrics and a known cracking problem.
Answer - let industry provide a new platform/mix of platforms.
Problem - where does industry get the crews?
Answer - Use military crews or a mix of mil and civvy crews.
Problem - will MOD sanction the use of mil pilots for non mil purposes?
Answer - No - make them redundant and let the PFI offer them jobs at less than market rates because they will all have pensions. This eases the need to downsize the military to meet the new defence budget cuts.
Problem - where will the SAR aircraft be based?
Answer - give the PFI all the current locations/hangars etc so the PFI bid looks cheaper on paper than the military cost of providing.
Problem - what about the cost to the taxpayer?
Answer - start charging people to be rescued to offset the costs.
Bye bye Military SAR
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Problem - Where does industry get the crews....
Answer - they put and Advert in the paper...same as everyone else! where do you think the crews for Portland SAR got there?
Problem - what about the cost to the taxpayer?
Answer - the Taxpayer will be relieved to know that the cost will be significantly reduced. Just compare the cost of Culdrose SAR with that of Portland SAR.
Answer - they put and Advert in the paper...same as everyone else! where do you think the crews for Portland SAR got there?
Problem - what about the cost to the taxpayer?
Answer - the Taxpayer will be relieved to know that the cost will be significantly reduced. Just compare the cost of Culdrose SAR with that of Portland SAR.
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Do you mean the cost of 771 which, on top of SAR, carries out pilot and observer training, aircrewman training, engineering training, parents Gannet plus secret squirrel stuff we cannot talk about but which appears in the current recruiting bumpf?
Are you comparing all of that to a helicopter at Portland?
Are you comparing all of that to a helicopter at Portland?
Sorry if this has been asked already.
I can understand the logic of Contracting UK SAR but what about the RN cabs. We still need SAR qualified crews at Sea. Unless the NAAFI are going to provide the crews. (CVF???) Can crews get enough training in this role without "double tapping" as civilian SAR as well?
I can understand the logic of Contracting UK SAR but what about the RN cabs. We still need SAR qualified crews at Sea. Unless the NAAFI are going to provide the crews. (CVF???) Can crews get enough training in this role without "double tapping" as civilian SAR as well?
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Can crews get enough training in this role without "double tapping" as civilian SAR as well?
Vecvechooketc. - do you really think there are 80 SAR pilots just sat out there waiting for the adverts? The only place the pilots can come from is from within the military unless you drop the qualification requirements and put any Tom, Dick or Harriet into the seats.
Is that the daylight only Portland SAR you are talking about? The same ones who were given all the infrastructure at Portland instaed of having to build it themselves. Not really a fair comparison to 771 is it?
I guess from your remarks that you have no experience of SAR - if all studes are taught it and it is so easy, why do we have SAR flights at all? Anyone can hover over the sea on a nice day, well almost anyone but it is the nasty weather and darkness that needs an extra little bit of skill.
Is that the daylight only Portland SAR you are talking about? The same ones who were given all the infrastructure at Portland instaed of having to build it themselves. Not really a fair comparison to 771 is it?
I guess from your remarks that you have no experience of SAR - if all studes are taught it and it is so easy, why do we have SAR flights at all? Anyone can hover over the sea on a nice day, well almost anyone but it is the nasty weather and darkness that needs an extra little bit of skill.
I think you may be missing vecvechookattack's point. The treasury looked at the numbers and came to a conclusion(sp?). Civilians are cheaper, at leat for the first the first five years, the whole argument of experience etc. is lost on bean counters bless them
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"Civilians are cheaper, at least for the first the first five years, the whole argument of experience etc. is lost on bean counters bless them."
Thanks Bing, but do you mean that civilians are cheap or are cheaper to employ?
In my experience, the civvies are paid more, with less staff to perform the same, (if not more) function
In other words, it is sad for the mil as far as the serving mates as well as traditions
are concerned, but the bean counters and non mil types will win.
Myself , I am pro Forces SAR.
exleckie
Thanks Bing, but do you mean that civilians are cheap or are cheaper to employ?
In my experience, the civvies are paid more, with less staff to perform the same, (if not more) function
In other words, it is sad for the mil as far as the serving mates as well as traditions
are concerned, but the bean counters and non mil types will win.
Myself , I am pro Forces SAR.
exleckie
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No SAR experience???? you clearly don't know me, but to give you a clue my first SAR job was the rescue of a small boy drifting out to sea on an inflatable off Browndown point. Still, back to the thread and it has to be agreed that civilian SAR operators do it far, far cheaper than the military. As far as experience goes...well just give Portland or Lee SAR a ring and ask them where there guys did their Flying Training. Think you'll find the answer is in Cornwall.
Recruiting Pilots won't be a problem. Whats the difference between a pilot and a SAR pilot? A 2 day course. Recruiting crewmen to relocate to Culdrose will be easy as there are dozens of them already there.
Nope, all in all it will be cheaper and more efficient.
Recruiting Pilots won't be a problem. Whats the difference between a pilot and a SAR pilot? A 2 day course. Recruiting crewmen to relocate to Culdrose will be easy as there are dozens of them already there.
Nope, all in all it will be cheaper and more efficient.
Last edited by vecvechookattack; 2nd Jun 2005 at 14:58.