SAR going out to contract.
Hooray - someone on my side at last, thanks mallard.
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Some good relevant points from mallard. - Totally concur. I think the idea of a government run SAR flight is a non starter though as the litigation, risk and liability would be too great. Sadly I think the days of Military SAR are numbered and the bean counters will have their way.
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WYGetc - don't start banging on about medals after 771 got AFCs for hovering over someones house at Boscastle
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.
I think that you are mistaken on two counts;
Firstly it was DSARFC
Secondly the crew concerned were quite positive about his inclusion in the rescue effort as it was "all we f
ing need"
yes but they weren't rude about the SARFC on the FLIR tape - tut, tut.
Firstly it was DSARFC
Secondly the crew concerned were quite positive about his inclusion in the rescue effort as it was "all we f
ing need"
- what is the legal standpoint on this?
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"I think the idea of a government run SAR flight is a non starter though as the litigation, risk and liability would be too great."
The Armed Forces do not have the comfort of Crown Immunity now so they are already open to litigation etc. So what difference would it make if heliSAR was run by a Govt Agency?
The Armed Forces do not have the comfort of Crown Immunity now so they are already open to litigation etc. So what difference would it make if heliSAR was run by a Govt Agency?
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I think that a good model to follow would be that of the Hong Kong Govt Air Service.
Still under Govt control but run obstensively as a civil organisation. I understand that their procurement programme consists of going out and buying the stuff they need off the shelf.........it would never catch on here.
Mind you the money on research and development on many of these items would have been paid for out of other Govt pockets. I wonder if that factor is taken into account when calculating the cost of UK Mil SAR.
Do those in the civil sector buy off the shelf or are they involved in paying for any research and development?
Still under Govt control but run obstensively as a civil organisation. I understand that their procurement programme consists of going out and buying the stuff they need off the shelf.........it would never catch on here.
Mind you the money on research and development on many of these items would have been paid for out of other Govt pockets. I wonder if that factor is taken into account when calculating the cost of UK Mil SAR.
Do those in the civil sector buy off the shelf or are they involved in paying for any research and development?
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Can someone clarify as to whether all of the ground role jobs will be civvy or will it only be the maintainers....?
Will there still be a role for sqn ops staff and squippers?
Cheers
Ralph
Will there still be a role for sqn ops staff and squippers?
Cheers
Ralph
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Don't be scared of change
As a soon to be ex Forces SAR person who has been enticed into the civvy SAR world by more money and better working condictions, I cannot see why everyone is against change. Everyone wants to be the best at what they do, but at the end of the day the only people that really matter are those in need of our services and no matter what colour your overalls are, the job will get done.
We should look across the water at Eire, they have sacked their Military crews in favour of civvy's under the contract of CHC, and guess what it only bloody works.
So come on guys what are you really scared of, people said the Wessex was the best for SAR but now everyone is trying to keep the old Sea King. Just think of the people whos lives will require saving in the future, a purpose built SAR a/c, faster ,greater range and better equipment is surely the way ahead or do you want to be plodding along in your old Sea King.
We should look across the water at Eire, they have sacked their Military crews in favour of civvy's under the contract of CHC, and guess what it only bloody works.
So come on guys what are you really scared of, people said the Wessex was the best for SAR but now everyone is trying to keep the old Sea King. Just think of the people whos lives will require saving in the future, a purpose built SAR a/c, faster ,greater range and better equipment is surely the way ahead or do you want to be plodding along in your old Sea King.
Sargod
If you are going to Eire you will be plodding along in your even older S61. If you are going to JIGSAW your conditions of work will be worse as living on an oil rig is no fun.
HF
If you are going to Eire you will be plodding along in your even older S61. If you are going to JIGSAW your conditions of work will be worse as living on an oil rig is no fun.
HF
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ex Forces SAR person who has been enticed into the civvy SAR world by more money and better working condictions
I've got a message from Stores: Your size 18 slippers are ready to be collected, but as you won't be needing them for the twenty days a month that you used to have off, they have returned them to stock.
Red On, Green On
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Hummingfrog
Which oil rigs have you lived on?
As an FDO I worked 15 on/15 off in the BP Forties for six months in the "summer" of 1980 - on an accom. rig that was alongside Forties Charlie. We worked 18 hours a day, were fed very well, and had 2 man cabins that were OK. The crack was good, the food excellent - so much so that I put on 20 lbs!
We had a resident 365 pilot who seemed pretty happy with his 7 on/7 off. The guys I felt sorry for were the Bristows S61 drivers who flew ex-Dyce three times a day.
Guys on the West African rigs did have a lousy time, admitted.
living on an oil rig is no fun
As an FDO I worked 15 on/15 off in the BP Forties for six months in the "summer" of 1980 - on an accom. rig that was alongside Forties Charlie. We worked 18 hours a day, were fed very well, and had 2 man cabins that were OK. The crack was good, the food excellent - so much so that I put on 20 lbs!
We had a resident 365 pilot who seemed pretty happy with his 7 on/7 off. The guys I felt sorry for were the Bristows S61 drivers who flew ex-Dyce three times a day.
Guys on the West African rigs did have a lousy time, admitted.
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20 days off a month????
Not sure where you get your info from but no one on SAR gets 20 days off a month (without leave).
Oh, and don't give me that bull about seconds being a day off - even on the seconds day we spend at least 10 hours AT WORK (midnight to about 10am).
Those unlucky enough not to live within about 20 miles of work will spend 22 hours AT WORK on a seconds day in summer (don't ask why - the answer is beyond human intelligence).
Soooooo, for some a shift can be 22 hours at work on day one - up to midnight, followed immediately by another 22 hours until they're allowed home.
Hey - Maybe that's why MilSAR is so expensive? Seconds!!
Regards.
Sooooooo, a run of 4 can equal 148 hours at work in an 8 day period.
Aren\'t there EU rules about the 148 hour week?
Oh, and don't give me that bull about seconds being a day off - even on the seconds day we spend at least 10 hours AT WORK (midnight to about 10am).
Those unlucky enough not to live within about 20 miles of work will spend 22 hours AT WORK on a seconds day in summer (don't ask why - the answer is beyond human intelligence).
Soooooo, for some a shift can be 22 hours at work on day one - up to midnight, followed immediately by another 22 hours until they're allowed home.
Hey - Maybe that's why MilSAR is so expensive? Seconds!!
Regards.
Sooooooo, a run of 4 can equal 148 hours at work in an 8 day period.
Aren\'t there EU rules about the 148 hour week?
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even on the seconds day we spend at least 10 hours AT WORK
Arrive for handover which is at 1000
1015 decide what to fly for this shift, most probably two hours day, two hours night......but this time of year don't night fly.
1030 Decide whos cooking lunch
1030 - 1200 Kerrang, cricket,secondary duties
1200-1330 Lunch including 1230 ITV news and the BBC one o clock.
Afternoon flight to include Decks, drums and radar, or if feeling a little adventurous Radar Decks and Drums.
Land by 1730 so as not to miss dinner and The Street at 1930
2000 Eastenders followed by brief for night flying
Night flying to include same as PM flight but in the dark
Down by 2300 to get the free porn on at 0000 and then to bed.
......need I go on? I know because I've been there. You have a cushy life and loads of time off. I know where I would rather be for time off at the moment and its on a SAR Flt.
The HBZ is active!!!
You forgot the crosswords and the sudoko..... and the table football........oh and the comedy ECMO in the middle of the night and the fruitless search for red flares.
As for the Irish binning milSAR - I think the mil setup was nowhere near the standard of UK in terms of trg and equipment and the trigger for change was a sad fatal crash in fog. It had a lot less to do with pure civ v mil costings.
As for the Irish binning milSAR - I think the mil setup was nowhere near the standard of UK in terms of trg and equipment and the trigger for change was a sad fatal crash in fog. It had a lot less to do with pure civ v mil costings.
airborne_artist
"Which oil rigs have you lived on?"
For the past 15 yrs:- 40sA, 40sB, 40sD, Iolair, Safe Felicia, Poly Concorde, Tharos, Esmonde and a few nightstops on others.
I think you have a romantic memory of life on a rig. A few months in the summer may be OK, but winters can be very challenging with lots of night flying in marginal weather. Rules and regulations have also mushroomed since 1980; for instance you get told off if you don't hold onto the handrail when climbing stairways.
In 1980 the 40s were only 5yrs old. They haven't been modernised much since then.
While offshore basing suits some people there are not a lot of volunteers in my company. A recent shortage of volunteers saw the offshore allowance increased by 300% as once pilots had been offshore based many were reluctant to repeat the experience.
The constant 15days on/13 off also has a wearing effect on family life. So as I said life on the rigs is not fun and I wouldn't do it if it did not fit in with my lifestyle requirements.
HF
"Which oil rigs have you lived on?"
For the past 15 yrs:- 40sA, 40sB, 40sD, Iolair, Safe Felicia, Poly Concorde, Tharos, Esmonde and a few nightstops on others.
I think you have a romantic memory of life on a rig. A few months in the summer may be OK, but winters can be very challenging with lots of night flying in marginal weather. Rules and regulations have also mushroomed since 1980; for instance you get told off if you don't hold onto the handrail when climbing stairways.
In 1980 the 40s were only 5yrs old. They haven't been modernised much since then.
While offshore basing suits some people there are not a lot of volunteers in my company. A recent shortage of volunteers saw the offshore allowance increased by 300% as once pilots had been offshore based many were reluctant to repeat the experience.
The constant 15days on/13 off also has a wearing effect on family life. So as I said life on the rigs is not fun and I wouldn't do it if it did not fit in with my lifestyle requirements.
HF
MallardPI,
If the civvies can provide the same SAR coverage, with the same standards, and make a profit at it....and do it cheaper overall than the military.....why is that a problem? The taxpayer gains out of that situation.
If the CG contract only goes to the high tide mark....alter the contract to meet the needs and let the civvies bid on that requirement. Place the standards to be met within the framework of the contract and then....compare apples to apples....when considering the cost of military SAR versus civvie SAR. A bit of competition never hurts....if you can provide the better service to the customer at the lower price...then the military keeps the contract....if not the civvies get the contract.
The point about military SAR doing other tasks that the civvies do not....is valid....but that in and of itself should not determine the issue. SAR coverage for cost is the issue.
If the civvies can provide the same SAR coverage, with the same standards, and make a profit at it....and do it cheaper overall than the military.....why is that a problem? The taxpayer gains out of that situation.
If the CG contract only goes to the high tide mark....alter the contract to meet the needs and let the civvies bid on that requirement. Place the standards to be met within the framework of the contract and then....compare apples to apples....when considering the cost of military SAR versus civvie SAR. A bit of competition never hurts....if you can provide the better service to the customer at the lower price...then the military keeps the contract....if not the civvies get the contract.
The point about military SAR doing other tasks that the civvies do not....is valid....but that in and of itself should not determine the issue. SAR coverage for cost is the issue.