Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?
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Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?
Ladies and Gentlemen
We live in a military world where we are constantly asked to do more with less, equipment is procured late and therefore not up to requirement and more often at greater cost, and we are seen as a burden on the taxpayer for daring to have some time off when we should be obviously confined to barracks every night whilst on detachment. We are employed as a world police force with no real support from either our lords and masters or the public, with less notice taken when we are killed than when we commit a faux pas.
Where do you feel the Armed Forces going to be in a few years time and does anyone have a sensible answer as to the way ahead? Is there an answer or shall we continue until the last few serviceable aircraft are grounded in the UK since military aircraft make too much noise for horse riders?
I ask as one who spends half the year away and half the day when he is back at work trying to keep on top of the next detachment/days work/duty/reports/knee jerk reaction etc etc.
I'm bu99ered if I know the answer and as a result becoming more and more attracted to taking the walk at IPP in a couple of years, as, no doubt, are others. I am a long time member of this forum, but am posting under another name due to rumours of participation being frowned upon by hierarchy and affecting promotion and postings (another reason to NOT be cheerful - we cant even complain anymore!)!
I'm sure all you wags drool at the chance to share your wit on threads like this, and I await your usual venting, but before you let fly with your pearls, if anyone has a genuinely good idea, now's the time.
We live in a military world where we are constantly asked to do more with less, equipment is procured late and therefore not up to requirement and more often at greater cost, and we are seen as a burden on the taxpayer for daring to have some time off when we should be obviously confined to barracks every night whilst on detachment. We are employed as a world police force with no real support from either our lords and masters or the public, with less notice taken when we are killed than when we commit a faux pas.
Where do you feel the Armed Forces going to be in a few years time and does anyone have a sensible answer as to the way ahead? Is there an answer or shall we continue until the last few serviceable aircraft are grounded in the UK since military aircraft make too much noise for horse riders?
I ask as one who spends half the year away and half the day when he is back at work trying to keep on top of the next detachment/days work/duty/reports/knee jerk reaction etc etc.
I'm bu99ered if I know the answer and as a result becoming more and more attracted to taking the walk at IPP in a couple of years, as, no doubt, are others. I am a long time member of this forum, but am posting under another name due to rumours of participation being frowned upon by hierarchy and affecting promotion and postings (another reason to NOT be cheerful - we cant even complain anymore!)!
I'm sure all you wags drool at the chance to share your wit on threads like this, and I await your usual venting, but before you let fly with your pearls, if anyone has a genuinely good idea, now's the time.
Last edited by forwardassist; 23rd Jan 2005 at 13:40.
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Forward Assist,
Seems like this could become a good thread, and will be interesting to see what others make of your comments. I can only agree with you - I have become more and more disheartened over the years and really can't see anything making me want to stay in for longer trhan I have to. I think it will be a struggle to make it to pension point!
Look forward to someone coming up with a realistic way forward - I can't!!
Seems like this could become a good thread, and will be interesting to see what others make of your comments. I can only agree with you - I have become more and more disheartened over the years and really can't see anything making me want to stay in for longer trhan I have to. I think it will be a struggle to make it to pension point!
Look forward to someone coming up with a realistic way forward - I can't!!
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If there is light at the end of the tunnel..........
........... then it is likely to be the 8:15 from Paddington!
sorry - that was an obvious comment - but it has parallels with the future of our great Service.
........... then it is likely to be the 8:15 from Paddington!
sorry - that was an obvious comment - but it has parallels with the future of our great Service.
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Given how bad our rail service is, that train will have been cancelled as well
Hi Gang;
Given that the rail service gets about a 90% success rate on trips (missions?)....who are we to talk???
Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke
Canx twice last week!!!
Hi Gang;
Given that the rail service gets about a 90% success rate on trips (missions?)....who are we to talk???
Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke
Canx twice last week!!!
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Morning chaps,
As one who is fairly new to the melting pot, but has grown up around the services, I have watched the steady decline in not only the size and shape of the Force, but the spirit and morale of those within. And things are getting bleaker and bleaker.
There is, as we all know, a mindset in the UK armed forces of making do, ie getting the job done reasonably well with the consistently sh!!ty hand we've been dealt by our lords and masters.
Our success has been our undoing. This has come up in threads past, but this seems like the best place to pop it in again.
THE ARMED FORCES WILL ONLY SURVIVE IF WE FAIL.
We are coming to the breaking point, the point in the graph where the "product" (God, I hate calling it that), can no longer be sustained by the meagre funding.
Actually being at home to mister cock-up on a grand scale might jog the purse-string holders into taking politically risky decisions that will benifit everyone in the long run, and not just get them re-elected because they've cut taxes or given a few more million asylum seekers council houses.
Rant 1 over. 2 may follow shortly with ideas of how to not be at home to mister cockup.
As one who is fairly new to the melting pot, but has grown up around the services, I have watched the steady decline in not only the size and shape of the Force, but the spirit and morale of those within. And things are getting bleaker and bleaker.
There is, as we all know, a mindset in the UK armed forces of making do, ie getting the job done reasonably well with the consistently sh!!ty hand we've been dealt by our lords and masters.
Our success has been our undoing. This has come up in threads past, but this seems like the best place to pop it in again.
THE ARMED FORCES WILL ONLY SURVIVE IF WE FAIL.
We are coming to the breaking point, the point in the graph where the "product" (God, I hate calling it that), can no longer be sustained by the meagre funding.
Actually being at home to mister cock-up on a grand scale might jog the purse-string holders into taking politically risky decisions that will benifit everyone in the long run, and not just get them re-elected because they've cut taxes or given a few more million asylum seekers council houses.
Rant 1 over. 2 may follow shortly with ideas of how to not be at home to mister cockup.
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Sweep Complete & TTH
Thank you for the input. I can only guess that everyone else are happy, have no answer, or are upset that others made the train jokes before them. I look forward to your second, and anyone else's, rant.
Thank you for the input. I can only guess that everyone else are happy, have no answer, or are upset that others made the train jokes before them. I look forward to your second, and anyone else's, rant.
TTH
I've heard the same thing said but in a different manner.
"The Armed Forces are the UK's most comprehensive Insurance Policy"
I've no problem with that, but what is the Government going to do when it finally realises it's cashed it in?
To be effective we need boots on the ground for the Army; ships at sea for the RN and I don't really care how smart Storm Shadow is it won't dish out First Aid at an RTA or put the fires out in Op Fresco 2. Or rescue trapped civilians in Carlisle, or Boscastle or the Ivory Coast.......the list goes on.
Technology and investment in it is a v. good thing but what happens when there's no-one left to operate it?
The problem is of course (and I don't know the exact figure but someone will no doubt correct me) but the majority of the money going to the Forces is paid out in wages.
Which seems strange coz' I never seem to see much of those either............
Edited because in my rant I forgot to spell check!
THE ARMED FORCES WILL ONLY SURVIVE IF WE FAIL.
"The Armed Forces are the UK's most comprehensive Insurance Policy"
I've no problem with that, but what is the Government going to do when it finally realises it's cashed it in?
To be effective we need boots on the ground for the Army; ships at sea for the RN and I don't really care how smart Storm Shadow is it won't dish out First Aid at an RTA or put the fires out in Op Fresco 2. Or rescue trapped civilians in Carlisle, or Boscastle or the Ivory Coast.......the list goes on.
Technology and investment in it is a v. good thing but what happens when there's no-one left to operate it?
The problem is of course (and I don't know the exact figure but someone will no doubt correct me) but the majority of the money going to the Forces is paid out in wages.
Which seems strange coz' I never seem to see much of those either............
Edited because in my rant I forgot to spell check!
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The newspapers today stated that the RAF would be down to 300 FJ pilots by 2020. So how come we've ordered 232 Typhoon, and 150 JSF? Who's gonna fly them?
Maybe the FJ folk will get leaned, and go into a joint FJ / truckie / Rotary central Squadron, much as the groundcrew have been forced to. Today a Typhoon bombing run, tomorrow a bit of Aerial Delivery, and Friday some Air Sea Rescue. Marvellous!
Maybe the FJ folk will get leaned, and go into a joint FJ / truckie / Rotary central Squadron, much as the groundcrew have been forced to. Today a Typhoon bombing run, tomorrow a bit of Aerial Delivery, and Friday some Air Sea Rescue. Marvellous!
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Most probable answer is 'no'.
You hit the nail on the head in the original post... the culture of our once great nation is moving inexorably away from one where the state's role is to provide external security (us) and internal security (police). These functions are both expensive and decreasingly valued. However, retrain as a social worker, social housing co-ordinator, asylum seekers' friend etc and you'll be fine. It's probably not worth getting worked up about... we're in irreversible decline.
On a positive note, the civil air transport sector isn't in a permanent state of decline! More to the point, you can work to a number of airlines' rosters from pretty much anywhere... the South of France appeals to me!
You hit the nail on the head in the original post... the culture of our once great nation is moving inexorably away from one where the state's role is to provide external security (us) and internal security (police). These functions are both expensive and decreasingly valued. However, retrain as a social worker, social housing co-ordinator, asylum seekers' friend etc and you'll be fine. It's probably not worth getting worked up about... we're in irreversible decline.
On a positive note, the civil air transport sector isn't in a permanent state of decline! More to the point, you can work to a number of airlines' rosters from pretty much anywhere... the South of France appeals to me!
Doesn't every generation of serviceman think the RAF/Army/Navy etc is going to hell in a handcart?
The shape will change (over and over), but some things won't.
There will be no shortage of aircrew candidates. It's a **** hot way to work every day; the pay's great (don't think it's not!), and no-one has to join or stay.
This site will still be home to career whingers, eternal optimists and wind-up merchants in the same proportion.
Newbies won't know any better, until they know enough to know better, and they still won't have to stay.
Now, where's my pipe n slippers?
The shape will change (over and over), but some things won't.
There will be no shortage of aircrew candidates. It's a **** hot way to work every day; the pay's great (don't think it's not!), and no-one has to join or stay.
This site will still be home to career whingers, eternal optimists and wind-up merchants in the same proportion.
Newbies won't know any better, until they know enough to know better, and they still won't have to stay.
Now, where's my pipe n slippers?
Hmmmm an interesting issue that unfortunately raises more questions than I'm sure anybody has answers for. But my first point would be
Yes CG, I think you're right about that - and it's not just confined to the Armed Forces. However, in this case, I do think that ForwardAssist has a very valid point - we are going to hell in a handcart. Actually I think we're almost there - it's the next exit just after Bliar-town and Buffoon-ville.
Whilst not exactly an old timer, I have been in for 7 years and the drop in everything connected with the military - other than our output has been quicker than a slapper's drawers on a Friday night in Peterhead (not that I have any experience of that point).
1. We can no longer do anything that costs more than we can scrape together from the loose change down the back of the sofa.
2. Any form of fun that 20 years ago would have been described as building team spirit or morale is instantly spread over pages 1-12 of those items that can only be described as 'newspapers' in the loosest sense of the word (even my dog now objects to the Mirror and Sun in his dog basket), having mortally offended some 57 year old do-gooder called Norman from Little Snoring on the Wold.
3. We have a morally bankrupt government that doesn't give a damn about the armed forces, even though we are used in all sorts of roles from steely-eyed dealers of death (what we're supposed to do), to firemen, nannies, politically correct adverts for HMG's questionable 'inclusivity' policies and instruments of Tony's attempt to get the Nobel Prize for hypocracy (what we're not supposed to do).
4. We have a procurement system that leaves me gasping for breath and incandescent with rage at it's sheer general uselessness and incompetence coupled, which is often coupled with point 3 and HMG's moral vacuum that refuses to get rid of organisations that can't provide the goods because it might cost a few votes here and there. The end result being that we go off on ops without the kit we are supposed to have or if we are lucky with defective kit - albeit not enough of it.
5. We have a bunch of airships that by and large appear to be weaker than a soggy kit-kat, who are unwilling to stand up to the politicians and defend the interests of the service and the people underneath them; just because it might get them the sack or they won't get their next stripe or their 'K'. Where are the Dowdings of today who are prepared to stand up and tell the politicians no, this can't be done and trying to force it through will end in disaster. Well I've had a good hard look, and as far as I can see, the last one was the Navy-chappy Boyce who was CDS a few years back who was asked to leave early becuase he stood up for what he believed in. Back bone???? Not something the current lot appear to have heard much about - or that's the way it appears from my end of the trench.
6. We have got to the point that the RAF has been contracted out so much, that we are losing the can-do spirit to be replaced by can-do, as long as it isn't between 1000-1030, 1500-1530 or after 1615 (1530 on Fridays); won't stop me going on leave even though there is a war on; I can still get my round of golf in every Tuesday afternoon and nobody writes anything nasty about my being an oxygen thief on my annual civil service report. Civilianizing has meant that so much of our service ethos has gone for good that if we ever tried to get it back, we'd fail dismally only finding it dead under a pile of red tape, petty bureacracy and cost cutting measures.
And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business. Whilst I'm all for financial responsibility, we have gone way too far and given the accountants and management consultants way too much sway. The really annoying thing is, we pay millions each year to employ these people and the end result of their £5.3M cost saving study is that they tell us we can't afford to pay their fees, so we'll just have to axe another hospital/ship/sqn/regiment
This all stems from having things (I won't use the term leaders 
) that have never served and cannot see the damage they have done to the forces by treating them like a business.
We do not operate in a world of profit and loss, instead our books balance when the same number of aircraft/tanks/people come home from a deployment that went out, having been successful in their mission. Defence is inherently expensive but it's output is often intangible - what do the politicians have to show for pumping billions our way each year. We would probably all point out that sleeping safe in your beds and watching your kids grow up happy and safe are probably tangible enough benefits of what we do, but that isn't enough for the politicians. They want that and they want everything else that goes with trying to buy the electorate - yes we have noticed Mr Bliar, and no we're not stupid.
So how do you fix it? Well I have to say that right now, we're bollocksed. I don't think we can fix it for the current generation. It has been said that we need to fail, to show them that we can't do everything with nothing, and then hopefully we'll get some cash. Whilst I see the logic, my personal pride will not allow me to that - not if there is a chance that I can do what I need to do successfully, no matter how meager the resources given to me to do it. Of course if I fail unintentionally, then that's a different matter. I think we need to make people realise that we are not a business and that you can't measure what we do in terms of profit and loss, and the sooner the airships (and tankships and ermm shipships??) force this point through so much the better. When they succeed there, we might get the accountants off our backs, which might ease the pressure a little to stop doing everything with nothing until you disappear in an ever decreasing circle up your own arse. I also think that part of the job specs for PM/ SoS Def should have been a spell in the forces, including time on ops, so they do actually appreciate what we are about and what the impact of slowly bleeding us to death is.
Alternatively, we call their bluffs - issue shares in the RAF and then sack the board of directors!!!!!!
Doesn't every generation of serviceman think the RAF/Army/Navy etc is going to hell in a handcart?
Whilst not exactly an old timer, I have been in for 7 years and the drop in everything connected with the military - other than our output has been quicker than a slapper's drawers on a Friday night in Peterhead (not that I have any experience of that point).
1. We can no longer do anything that costs more than we can scrape together from the loose change down the back of the sofa.
2. Any form of fun that 20 years ago would have been described as building team spirit or morale is instantly spread over pages 1-12 of those items that can only be described as 'newspapers' in the loosest sense of the word (even my dog now objects to the Mirror and Sun in his dog basket), having mortally offended some 57 year old do-gooder called Norman from Little Snoring on the Wold.
3. We have a morally bankrupt government that doesn't give a damn about the armed forces, even though we are used in all sorts of roles from steely-eyed dealers of death (what we're supposed to do), to firemen, nannies, politically correct adverts for HMG's questionable 'inclusivity' policies and instruments of Tony's attempt to get the Nobel Prize for hypocracy (what we're not supposed to do).
4. We have a procurement system that leaves me gasping for breath and incandescent with rage at it's sheer general uselessness and incompetence coupled, which is often coupled with point 3 and HMG's moral vacuum that refuses to get rid of organisations that can't provide the goods because it might cost a few votes here and there. The end result being that we go off on ops without the kit we are supposed to have or if we are lucky with defective kit - albeit not enough of it.
5. We have a bunch of airships that by and large appear to be weaker than a soggy kit-kat, who are unwilling to stand up to the politicians and defend the interests of the service and the people underneath them; just because it might get them the sack or they won't get their next stripe or their 'K'. Where are the Dowdings of today who are prepared to stand up and tell the politicians no, this can't be done and trying to force it through will end in disaster. Well I've had a good hard look, and as far as I can see, the last one was the Navy-chappy Boyce who was CDS a few years back who was asked to leave early becuase he stood up for what he believed in. Back bone???? Not something the current lot appear to have heard much about - or that's the way it appears from my end of the trench.
6. We have got to the point that the RAF has been contracted out so much, that we are losing the can-do spirit to be replaced by can-do, as long as it isn't between 1000-1030, 1500-1530 or after 1615 (1530 on Fridays); won't stop me going on leave even though there is a war on; I can still get my round of golf in every Tuesday afternoon and nobody writes anything nasty about my being an oxygen thief on my annual civil service report. Civilianizing has meant that so much of our service ethos has gone for good that if we ever tried to get it back, we'd fail dismally only finding it dead under a pile of red tape, petty bureacracy and cost cutting measures.
And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business. Whilst I'm all for financial responsibility, we have gone way too far and given the accountants and management consultants way too much sway. The really annoying thing is, we pay millions each year to employ these people and the end result of their £5.3M cost saving study is that they tell us we can't afford to pay their fees, so we'll just have to axe another hospital/ship/sqn/regiment
This all stems from having things (I won't use the term leaders ) that have never served and cannot see the damage they have done to the forces by treating them like a business. We do not operate in a world of profit and loss, instead our books balance when the same number of aircraft/tanks/people come home from a deployment that went out, having been successful in their mission. Defence is inherently expensive but it's output is often intangible - what do the politicians have to show for pumping billions our way each year. We would probably all point out that sleeping safe in your beds and watching your kids grow up happy and safe are probably tangible enough benefits of what we do, but that isn't enough for the politicians. They want that and they want everything else that goes with trying to buy the electorate - yes we have noticed Mr Bliar, and no we're not stupid.
So how do you fix it? Well I have to say that right now, we're bollocksed. I don't think we can fix it for the current generation. It has been said that we need to fail, to show them that we can't do everything with nothing, and then hopefully we'll get some cash. Whilst I see the logic, my personal pride will not allow me to that - not if there is a chance that I can do what I need to do successfully, no matter how meager the resources given to me to do it. Of course if I fail unintentionally, then that's a different matter. I think we need to make people realise that we are not a business and that you can't measure what we do in terms of profit and loss, and the sooner the airships (and tankships and ermm shipships??) force this point through so much the better. When they succeed there, we might get the accountants off our backs, which might ease the pressure a little to stop doing everything with nothing until you disappear in an ever decreasing circle up your own arse. I also think that part of the job specs for PM/ SoS Def should have been a spell in the forces, including time on ops, so they do actually appreciate what we are about and what the impact of slowly bleeding us to death is.
Alternatively, we call their bluffs - issue shares in the RAF and then sack the board of directors!!!!!!
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Melchy, in a full Service career I've seen some pretty jazzy reports and papers, but I have to doff my cap at you - that's just about the finest, most succinct that it has ever been my pleasure to read. Pity that the subject caused it in the first place...