Who cares when you PVR?
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Reckonable Service for pension (from joining or age 18 for other ranks whichever is the latter; from joining or age 21 for officers whichever is the latter) is counted up until exit/retirment.
All queries answered and resolved, thanks - apart from one re pvr pension rate affecting previous 16 years. If they must, then abate my 17th year but why do they think they can touch my original time? Will be discussing that one at some workshop or other.
PTC have been reasonable - last working day mid-Mar.
PTC have been reasonable - last working day mid-Mar.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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I am currently on my way out after 22 yrs, having PVR'd. No one gives a sh*t. They are happy to see you go as it's one less to pay redundancy money to!.
I managed to fill an A4 sheet with reasons why but never had anyone from above come and ask me 'why?', cos so many are PVRing they know all the reasons why.
I managed to fill an A4 sheet with reasons why but never had anyone from above come and ask me 'why?', cos so many are PVRing they know all the reasons why.
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Guys,
I'm amazed that many of you think you are owed something! You got paid didn't you?
But the biggest flaw is believing there is a 'they' - 'they' don't care, 'they' didn't ask why, etc. The fact is there's a bunch of blokes (and birds) just like you doing their best to get promoted, fill their quota's or get through the next det. The retention and PVR reversal desk at Innsworth is fiction.
I'm amazed that many of you think you are owed something! You got paid didn't you?
But the biggest flaw is believing there is a 'they' - 'they' don't care, 'they' didn't ask why, etc. The fact is there's a bunch of blokes (and birds) just like you doing their best to get promoted, fill their quota's or get through the next det. The retention and PVR reversal desk at Innsworth is fiction.
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Whenever I've had one of mine bang in a PVR, the first question I ask them is 'why'. I can't change the RAF for them, I can't get them more money etc, but there may be ways that I can manage or approach their expectations. Part of me doesn't care what their reason for PVRing is, as long as they've thought it through and have a reason. If they don't, I ask them enough questions to prompt them to think about it and get them to come back to me afterwards. I make it clear that if they still want to PVR, fine, but about 10-20% of them rip up their forms and return happily to work, realising that a PVR filed in a fit of picque is something that they would probably regret. I have had plenty of people, still in the Service, come up to me years later and thank me for making them think about it fully as they have stayed, done well and are having the time of their lives.
I consider that sort of handling to be the responsibility of every flt cdr, sqn cdr and stn cdr as they receive a PVR. I do not consider it appropriate or practical for PMA to serve this function - it's usually too late by the time they are involved as a lack of concern by the local command chain just cements the will to leave, regardless of the original reason.
I consider that sort of handling to be the responsibility of every flt cdr, sqn cdr and stn cdr as they receive a PVR. I do not consider it appropriate or practical for PMA to serve this function - it's usually too late by the time they are involved as a lack of concern by the local command chain just cements the will to leave, regardless of the original reason.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Opso,
I suspect you are in the minority judging by many posters' anger and dismay. However, I was incredibly well dealt with at Cranditz, where I had considerate and supportive Bosses who understood my reasons, then let me go pretty much on my own terms that fitted nicely with the start of the new job. I owe them a pint or 3.
I did fill in some paperwork asking me why I was going but PMA masters were not interested in retaining 17 years worth of flying experience (I disagree - that IS their job too!). However, while my DO was sad to see me go, his Bosses weren't - but that is another story. However, I suspect they are all far too busy wondering how they are going to fill all the staff posts and top-heavy command chain to which we seem to have regressed.
(thinks ......I wonder what is the ratio of Sqns to star-officers?)
The bottom-line is that GW2 continues to cost too much and His Royal Tonyness/Gordon Scrooge want to save money on their costly, non-vote-winning military .........and the most expensive things in the HM Forces are its people. So, as far as the beancounters and promotion-seekers are concerned, the quickest way to reduce costs was lose a few lower-level bods pdq - piece of cake!
Therefore, an increasing PVR rate is a sign of the times. In the meantime, some peeps are holding out for redundancy payouts (bit of a mistake in my book, as there probably isn't much money for that either). Others are staying in to protect their FRI/wait for their options, while many like me are getting out early to beat the rush.
While I was sad to leave many friends behind, I was not sad to dispense with the decaying top-level support.
The grass is always greener but in civ aviation, you generally get what you pay for and the companies have a clear idea where they want to go and how to do it efficiently. Generally, they consider their people a huge asset and have to stick to the rules on working times, extra duties but also pay the going wage.
I'm not sure if THIS business initiative will catch on with the treasury!
EESDL - see you out there, its not so bad!
I suspect you are in the minority judging by many posters' anger and dismay. However, I was incredibly well dealt with at Cranditz, where I had considerate and supportive Bosses who understood my reasons, then let me go pretty much on my own terms that fitted nicely with the start of the new job. I owe them a pint or 3.
I did fill in some paperwork asking me why I was going but PMA masters were not interested in retaining 17 years worth of flying experience (I disagree - that IS their job too!). However, while my DO was sad to see me go, his Bosses weren't - but that is another story. However, I suspect they are all far too busy wondering how they are going to fill all the staff posts and top-heavy command chain to which we seem to have regressed.
(thinks ......I wonder what is the ratio of Sqns to star-officers?)
The bottom-line is that GW2 continues to cost too much and His Royal Tonyness/Gordon Scrooge want to save money on their costly, non-vote-winning military .........and the most expensive things in the HM Forces are its people. So, as far as the beancounters and promotion-seekers are concerned, the quickest way to reduce costs was lose a few lower-level bods pdq - piece of cake!
Therefore, an increasing PVR rate is a sign of the times. In the meantime, some peeps are holding out for redundancy payouts (bit of a mistake in my book, as there probably isn't much money for that either). Others are staying in to protect their FRI/wait for their options, while many like me are getting out early to beat the rush.
While I was sad to leave many friends behind, I was not sad to dispense with the decaying top-level support.
The grass is always greener but in civ aviation, you generally get what you pay for and the companies have a clear idea where they want to go and how to do it efficiently. Generally, they consider their people a huge asset and have to stick to the rules on working times, extra duties but also pay the going wage.
I'm not sure if THIS business initiative will catch on with the treasury!
EESDL - see you out there, its not so bad!
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In the meantime, some peeps are holding out for redundancy payouts (bit of a mistake in my book, as there probably isn't much money for that either).
Anyway, my real reason for posting is to make the point that PMA must have an idea what the rates of application are for redundancy. The Service as a whole should be able to guage from these data what the feeling is within the various Trades and Branches. How many of those who are noy successful in their applications for redundancy will immediately submit PVR Applications?
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JtD
Yes, I appreciate that, but the point was making was that whereas, say, 50 people might PVR, they have applied for redundancy instead, along with another 50 who hadn't seriously considered PVR, but find the terms offered for redundancy attractive. Say 25 from each group are made redundant, the other 50 may well PVR, but these are currently 'hidden' from the stats, and will be until the actually redundancies are announced.
One other thing I've heard here before, and have subsequently confirmed, is that PMA does not count people who were expected to leave as part of their retention stats. Someone who joined for an initial engagement or commission of 8 years (or whatever the current rates are), who leaves after 8 years is not considered a 'retention failure'. From where I sit, I would have thought it was worth examining the rates of change in applications to convert to a PC or seek an extention of service.
BA
Yes, I appreciate that, but the point was making was that whereas, say, 50 people might PVR, they have applied for redundancy instead, along with another 50 who hadn't seriously considered PVR, but find the terms offered for redundancy attractive. Say 25 from each group are made redundant, the other 50 may well PVR, but these are currently 'hidden' from the stats, and will be until the actually redundancies are announced.
One other thing I've heard here before, and have subsequently confirmed, is that PMA does not count people who were expected to leave as part of their retention stats. Someone who joined for an initial engagement or commission of 8 years (or whatever the current rates are), who leaves after 8 years is not considered a 'retention failure'. From where I sit, I would have thought it was worth examining the rates of change in applications to convert to a PC or seek an extention of service.
BA
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BA
I believe the redunacy stuff is being announced bit by bit - I'm not sure they have mentioned large cash payouts for any aircrew yet.
I also believe that one has to apply for redundancy, with the added uncertainty that the board may not agree with you and not to mention the usual lengthy delay while they cogitate!
Otherwise, I think you are right - PMA/DASA DO know the application rate for redundancy/PVR and, as you suggest, I would expect the PVR rate to increase when those who don't get redundacy consider their options (or lack of them).
Is anyone without the chance of promotion going to be daft enough to stay on past their options in the current climate ?
I believe the redunacy stuff is being announced bit by bit - I'm not sure they have mentioned large cash payouts for any aircrew yet.
I also believe that one has to apply for redundancy, with the added uncertainty that the board may not agree with you and not to mention the usual lengthy delay while they cogitate!
Otherwise, I think you are right - PMA/DASA DO know the application rate for redundancy/PVR and, as you suggest, I would expect the PVR rate to increase when those who don't get redundacy consider their options (or lack of them).
Is anyone without the chance of promotion going to be daft enough to stay on past their options in the current climate ?
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Interesting question, the original one that is. On auto-add for my tuppence worth, which was not PVR, but at 38/16.
Opso is right; it is the responsibility of chain of command. When I decided to jump, my SO1 was surprised, the 1-Star absolutely gutted and the 2-Star asked me why and on hearing the reasons, offered to do this and that. I felt valued and wanted; however, the reasons to pull the handle overrode the temptation to become a special case so I said thanks, but no thanks.
Contrast this with the 'Desk'. The Deskie made no attempt to find out directly from me 'why' and I was in the office with the 1-Star phoned to give the Desk the hot poop on me. He left and the next one in made no attempt either, actually, he made 2 abortive attempts to send me to hot dusty places inside my last year and we eventually settled on me spending 3 months in a Bunker inside my last 9, which cost me money, ultimately. With 3 and a half working months left, the new Desk (yes, the previous did leave on promotion), asked me if anyone had offered me a deferral. Well, I 'left' by then, so it was a tadge late.
I didn't particularly feel that anyone owed me anything, but (ok, all MHO I know), given that I had a good rep, got the job done, was doing very well all things considered and was WFHR, well, I thought that someone at Innsworth would give a damn. TO be honest, that, and some nonsense from the then OC 54 really did convince that it was a good time to exit stage centre and I really have not looked back since.
In sum, if you are still with me, the 'System', in my case, did not, but the Chain of Command saw me right. That's probably par. Oh, and I got a free dinner!
Keep the faith.
Opso is right; it is the responsibility of chain of command. When I decided to jump, my SO1 was surprised, the 1-Star absolutely gutted and the 2-Star asked me why and on hearing the reasons, offered to do this and that. I felt valued and wanted; however, the reasons to pull the handle overrode the temptation to become a special case so I said thanks, but no thanks.
Contrast this with the 'Desk'. The Deskie made no attempt to find out directly from me 'why' and I was in the office with the 1-Star phoned to give the Desk the hot poop on me. He left and the next one in made no attempt either, actually, he made 2 abortive attempts to send me to hot dusty places inside my last year and we eventually settled on me spending 3 months in a Bunker inside my last 9, which cost me money, ultimately. With 3 and a half working months left, the new Desk (yes, the previous did leave on promotion), asked me if anyone had offered me a deferral. Well, I 'left' by then, so it was a tadge late.
I didn't particularly feel that anyone owed me anything, but (ok, all MHO I know), given that I had a good rep, got the job done, was doing very well all things considered and was WFHR, well, I thought that someone at Innsworth would give a damn. TO be honest, that, and some nonsense from the then OC 54 really did convince that it was a good time to exit stage centre and I really have not looked back since.
In sum, if you are still with me, the 'System', in my case, did not, but the Chain of Command saw me right. That's probably par. Oh, and I got a free dinner!
Keep the faith.
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Sorry to hear that your off Flip - I'm beginning to get a complex now that an ever increasing number of the people I've been running alongside over the years are off the other (hopefully greener) pastures. I hope the new job works out for you.
A number of the 'hidden' PVRs aren't that hidden. I know people that pushed in their redundancy application only a couple of weeks ago, waited for their boards to sit and (unsighted of the non-ratified result) bunged their PVR in straight after. This is working on the basis that if they have redundancy, the PVR will be ignored and irrelevent, if they haven't got the windfall, they're front of the queue for the exit on PVR terms.
A number of the 'hidden' PVRs aren't that hidden. I know people that pushed in their redundancy application only a couple of weeks ago, waited for their boards to sit and (unsighted of the non-ratified result) bunged their PVR in straight after. This is working on the basis that if they have redundancy, the PVR will be ignored and irrelevent, if they haven't got the windfall, they're front of the queue for the exit on PVR terms.
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Yep I was sorry too - but weighing up 15 years (to 55) behind a desk at SO2-level versus watching the golden sun pop up over the morning stratus from FL410 was a no-brainer.
There you have it in a nutshell for your average(ish) pilot. We don't like being away from that precious, chosen environment and that one glimpse of dawn that few others see, is worth every penny.
Also, the pay is good, there is no niff naff/ACRs and I get home every night - but there will always be some 'politics'. Most of all, however, I miss the peeps and cameraderie.
There you have it in a nutshell for your average(ish) pilot. We don't like being away from that precious, chosen environment and that one glimpse of dawn that few others see, is worth every penny.
Also, the pay is good, there is no niff naff/ACRs and I get home every night - but there will always be some 'politics'. Most of all, however, I miss the peeps and cameraderie.
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When I PVR'd, my Sqn chain of command understood fully my reasons, they counselled me and the Boss even went as far to champion my corner, to no avail. Finally after much dithering on my part I felt that I had made the right decision and notwithstanding my affection for the service firmly believed that the future that lay ahead for me as a SNCO was limited and would end up in frustration. So I left on target. I do not regret it one jot but I will always remember the support I received from my chain of command and their wise counsel, gentlemen to a man.
Don
Hope all is well!
I don't think people think that they're owed anything (apart from a gratuity!!) just that it would appear that it would be prudent to understand why certain people leave....or then again perhaps not:-)
I certainly don't think i'm 'owed' anything - just the right to sort out my resettlement without the RAF bleating about loyalty etc.
They've shown their 'loyalty' to me on numerous official occasions so I think it balances out.
Hope all is well!
I don't think people think that they're owed anything (apart from a gratuity!!) just that it would appear that it would be prudent to understand why certain people leave....or then again perhaps not:-)
I certainly don't think i'm 'owed' anything - just the right to sort out my resettlement without the RAF bleating about loyalty etc.
They've shown their 'loyalty' to me on numerous official occasions so I think it balances out.
"..Oh, and I got a free dinner!"
Which is more than a colleague and I ever did, despite 30+ combined years at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome!
And my sqn leaving goodies were eventually brought round in a poly bag by a mate. I just hope that no-one else ever suffers such a dismal 'thank you' for all their effort devoted to the cause over the years.
And 'they' wonder why people are queuing up to leave....
Which is more than a colleague and I ever did, despite 30+ combined years at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome!
And my sqn leaving goodies were eventually brought round in a poly bag by a mate. I just hope that no-one else ever suffers such a dismal 'thank you' for all their effort devoted to the cause over the years.
And 'they' wonder why people are queuing up to leave....
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Opso and bEagle make an important point - the "Service" doesn't actually exist. People offer a loyalty to a myth. A very powerful myth and one that sums up shared values and aspirations and all sort of old fashioned and unfashionable things like leadership, duty, honour etc.
All that exists are people. Most trying to do the job they're paid for as well as they can; some actually posessing the qualities of moral courage and humility as well as strength and professionalism - these are real leaders. It is a pity that they are so few.
Nobody ever put in their letter in a fit of pique when they were well led: sober reflection, a better offer, a growing family yes, but resentful betrayal no. In trying to become a "normal employer" and in embracing political correctness (instead of saying that we have a simple code - "do as you would be done by") and in vainly apeing business think we are not encouraging the real leaders. The men (and women) who put their people first and thus inspire the loyalty and achieve extraordinary things because people then believe in themselves and in one another.
The selfish, the insensitive, the sycophantic and the spineless are increasingly evident in the higher ranks because, corporately we are completely intolerant of mistakes and they cannot be risked.
This is the crisi that befalls an organistion that fails to build on its successes and concentrates overmuch on its failures.
When we fall into infatuation, we project much of our own personality, our dreams and fantasies onto the object of our unrequited desire. Having grown up, we fall in love with a real person, faults and all - and also because they love us back. Young men (and women, I suppose) have these romantic notions, and it is the youg who join up.
Having made the mistake of believing the Service exists; I believed that I could be loyal to it, but I am better now. I can be loyal to my subordinates, whether they deserve it or not, ditto my boss. By that I mean that I treat their objectives and their interests as my own. I can only hope (for I cannot demand) the same from them, but that is it. I can only do my best to be true to the memories of better men who wore the uniform (or one like it) before me.
In this Nelson bicentenary year it is well to remember that he may have been a consummate leader, loved by his men and idolised by the British public, but he had a very expensive mistress to support and was also very ambitious and careful of his career: and one in which it was possible to become rich. The RN still drinks a toast to "a bloody war and a sickly season" (and hence quicker promotion). PVR not Walcheron fever is more likely to thin out competitors these days. I worked for a man once who used to cross people out of the List as they were passed over or p*ssed off...
What motivates people most of all is not the hope of reward, but being valued: that their contribution to the effort of the team is worthwhile - and that the effort of the team is to some purpose.
Ultimately we must be defined by what we do, not what we believe, but whilst the Forces don't owe us anything, the myth is very important. It is quite right to suggest that one should put up or push off, but allow those of us who are leaving at least a lament for our lost love.
All that exists are people. Most trying to do the job they're paid for as well as they can; some actually posessing the qualities of moral courage and humility as well as strength and professionalism - these are real leaders. It is a pity that they are so few.
Nobody ever put in their letter in a fit of pique when they were well led: sober reflection, a better offer, a growing family yes, but resentful betrayal no. In trying to become a "normal employer" and in embracing political correctness (instead of saying that we have a simple code - "do as you would be done by") and in vainly apeing business think we are not encouraging the real leaders. The men (and women) who put their people first and thus inspire the loyalty and achieve extraordinary things because people then believe in themselves and in one another.
The selfish, the insensitive, the sycophantic and the spineless are increasingly evident in the higher ranks because, corporately we are completely intolerant of mistakes and they cannot be risked.
This is the crisi that befalls an organistion that fails to build on its successes and concentrates overmuch on its failures.
When we fall into infatuation, we project much of our own personality, our dreams and fantasies onto the object of our unrequited desire. Having grown up, we fall in love with a real person, faults and all - and also because they love us back. Young men (and women, I suppose) have these romantic notions, and it is the youg who join up.
Having made the mistake of believing the Service exists; I believed that I could be loyal to it, but I am better now. I can be loyal to my subordinates, whether they deserve it or not, ditto my boss. By that I mean that I treat their objectives and their interests as my own. I can only hope (for I cannot demand) the same from them, but that is it. I can only do my best to be true to the memories of better men who wore the uniform (or one like it) before me.
In this Nelson bicentenary year it is well to remember that he may have been a consummate leader, loved by his men and idolised by the British public, but he had a very expensive mistress to support and was also very ambitious and careful of his career: and one in which it was possible to become rich. The RN still drinks a toast to "a bloody war and a sickly season" (and hence quicker promotion). PVR not Walcheron fever is more likely to thin out competitors these days. I worked for a man once who used to cross people out of the List as they were passed over or p*ssed off...
What motivates people most of all is not the hope of reward, but being valued: that their contribution to the effort of the team is worthwhile - and that the effort of the team is to some purpose.
Ultimately we must be defined by what we do, not what we believe, but whilst the Forces don't owe us anything, the myth is very important. It is quite right to suggest that one should put up or push off, but allow those of us who are leaving at least a lament for our lost love.
