Who cares when you PVR?
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But BEagle - surely you must be a member of RAFA (you know, lots of old blokes hanging around talking about the good old days!!
) - pay your £10 and you can get an RAF Veterans ID Card. That'll impress the civ guards at your former stomping ground and allow you full and unescorted access to see how even further it (and the RAF) has gone downhill ...!
Or maybe not!
) - pay your £10 and you can get an RAF Veterans ID Card. That'll impress the civ guards at your former stomping ground and allow you full and unescorted access to see how even further it (and the RAF) has gone downhill ...!Or maybe not!
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PVR seems to be full of folklore methinks. I knew a guy who got out quick/threatened a lawsuit/talked nicely to PMA/Got shafted for his last 6/12/18 months etc etc.
Does anyone really know the definitive answer in terms of eligibility for PVR?
1 - Amortisation from 1st/subsequent OCUs?
2- Amortisation after promotion (is that substantive or acting?)
3- Can you PVR if you are currently in acting rank?
4 - Can you be held to more than 12 months?
5 - Can you get posted anywhere in your last x months after applying for PVR or are OOAs out of bounds?
The answers don't seem to all that well documented. Well they might be but if you start asking for obscure APs etc, the deskie will think I'm up to something!
I suppose I might be up to something actually!
Does anyone really know the definitive answer in terms of eligibility for PVR?
1 - Amortisation from 1st/subsequent OCUs?
2- Amortisation after promotion (is that substantive or acting?)
3- Can you PVR if you are currently in acting rank?
4 - Can you be held to more than 12 months?
5 - Can you get posted anywhere in your last x months after applying for PVR or are OOAs out of bounds?
The answers don't seem to all that well documented. Well they might be but if you start asking for obscure APs etc, the deskie will think I'm up to something!
I suppose I might be up to something actually!
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Eye off the ball
Some pointers for your Qs - Amortisation no longer exists however some trg (and promotion for officers) attracts a Trg Return of Service - details should be in AP3392 Vol2 which is available on the RAF/MOD Intranet if you don't want to bother your Stn P Staff/deskie (also details of Trg ROS are published in DCI JS 4/04- again available on the Intranet - First OCU is 72 month RoS, subsequent OCUs are 26 month ROS (varies for Army)). I don't have access so I can't give you any further steers. Rules on PVRs are similarly covered. If that doesn't help then the Air Sec's Personnel Staff Instructions (ie to Desk Offrs) are also on the Intranet - look under publications then personnel.
There are no get out of OOA clauses; however, deployments should (whenever possible - (a big get out clause)) - enable individuals to complete any resettlement benefits.
The other myth is that PVR is vulnerable to challenge in employment law - it has been challenged and the challenge failed. Even the Europeans - who had largely conscripted Armed Forces when the legislation was drafted - wouldn't allow someone just to leave their forces because they didn't like it! As an aside the European-Based Human Right preventing forced labour includes and exemption for the Armed Forces! Moreover, PVRing is not a right. Airmen have the right to give 18-months notice (enshrined by parliament in the RAF Terms of Service Regulations (work out the abbreviation yourselves). PVR is a manning tool that can be granted or withheld.
Hope this helps
Some pointers for your Qs - Amortisation no longer exists however some trg (and promotion for officers) attracts a Trg Return of Service - details should be in AP3392 Vol2 which is available on the RAF/MOD Intranet if you don't want to bother your Stn P Staff/deskie (also details of Trg ROS are published in DCI JS 4/04- again available on the Intranet - First OCU is 72 month RoS, subsequent OCUs are 26 month ROS (varies for Army)). I don't have access so I can't give you any further steers. Rules on PVRs are similarly covered. If that doesn't help then the Air Sec's Personnel Staff Instructions (ie to Desk Offrs) are also on the Intranet - look under publications then personnel.
There are no get out of OOA clauses; however, deployments should (whenever possible - (a big get out clause)) - enable individuals to complete any resettlement benefits.
The other myth is that PVR is vulnerable to challenge in employment law - it has been challenged and the challenge failed. Even the Europeans - who had largely conscripted Armed Forces when the legislation was drafted - wouldn't allow someone just to leave their forces because they didn't like it! As an aside the European-Based Human Right preventing forced labour includes and exemption for the Armed Forces! Moreover, PVRing is not a right. Airmen have the right to give 18-months notice (enshrined by parliament in the RAF Terms of Service Regulations (work out the abbreviation yourselves). PVR is a manning tool that can be granted or withheld.
Hope this helps
Last edited by Climebear; 7th Dec 2004 at 11:59.
Had an army chum who wanted out after completing 4/5 yrs. Was told it would take a minimum of a year, which everyone thinks was a deliberate ploy to shaft said person as they had an offer to go and train as a solicitor starting 8 months later.
The army dragged their feet, trying to persuad my mate to stay even though it was obvious there was no chance and then produced the 12 month clause just as he had been accepted for a law course.
Many weeks of wrangling later and my mate had got his escape chit signed by the committee and was over the wire. He had gone back to his prospective employers who had argued on his behalf that he only needed to serve a period of notice equivalent to the period he was paid over ie one month. After a few weeks of muttering and hurrumphing they gave in and let him go.
So it does appear that if you know EXACTLY what you are talking about and are prepared to challenge the muppets that live upstairs, you do stand a chance of winning.
PS Don't quote me if you ever need an early escape chit!!
The army dragged their feet, trying to persuad my mate to stay even though it was obvious there was no chance and then produced the 12 month clause just as he had been accepted for a law course.
Many weeks of wrangling later and my mate had got his escape chit signed by the committee and was over the wire. He had gone back to his prospective employers who had argued on his behalf that he only needed to serve a period of notice equivalent to the period he was paid over ie one month. After a few weeks of muttering and hurrumphing they gave in and let him go.
So it does appear that if you know EXACTLY what you are talking about and are prepared to challenge the muppets that live upstairs, you do stand a chance of winning.
PS Don't quote me if you ever need an early escape chit!!
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Anyone can challenge a decision on PVR (through redress to judicial review if you want to spend the money) such a decision would be based on reasonableness taking into all circumstances.
As far as the legal status of PVR stands it remains and has not been challenged at either court of employment tribunal. The civvy law firm would have known that the Armed Forces are specifically exempted from the notice provisions of the Employment Rights Act (Armed Forces personnel don't have a right to go to an Employment Tribunal for this unlike their civilian counterparts - ET rights are restricted to sex/race discrimination and equal pay act).
Without knowing the cases mention, I would guess that the challenges were down to the efficacy of individual decisions rather than general legality.
As far as the legal status of PVR stands it remains and has not been challenged at either court of employment tribunal. The civvy law firm would have known that the Armed Forces are specifically exempted from the notice provisions of the Employment Rights Act (Armed Forces personnel don't have a right to go to an Employment Tribunal for this unlike their civilian counterparts - ET rights are restricted to sex/race discrimination and equal pay act).
Without knowing the cases mention, I would guess that the challenges were down to the efficacy of individual decisions rather than general legality.
It certainly can be done, but there is a subtle distinction in WHAT can be done.
I went midway through my third tour, I had some severely senior legal help and got out almost at the time I wanted, that still took a good 16 weeks and I was then free to go in another eight. I wasn't challenging PVR as such but the right to be denied employment prospects based on the length of time I had to serve AFTER pulling the yellow and black.
I was so impressed with the legal process that it led to an entirely new career direction for me, I had no intention of being a solicitor when I left and had no idea what a Barrister was.
That was all a long time ago and it must be much easier now, I also had some rather draconian restrictions on publicity placed upon me that if I knew now what I knew then I would have challenged with the utmost vigour. Though in hindsight my acceptance of them at the time certainly smoothed my path.
I went midway through my third tour, I had some severely senior legal help and got out almost at the time I wanted, that still took a good 16 weeks and I was then free to go in another eight. I wasn't challenging PVR as such but the right to be denied employment prospects based on the length of time I had to serve AFTER pulling the yellow and black.
I was so impressed with the legal process that it led to an entirely new career direction for me, I had no intention of being a solicitor when I left and had no idea what a Barrister was.
That was all a long time ago and it must be much easier now, I also had some rather draconian restrictions on publicity placed upon me that if I knew now what I knew then I would have challenged with the utmost vigour. Though in hindsight my acceptance of them at the time certainly smoothed my path.
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Climebear,
OK, that makes sense. I think that what pr00ne talks about is what this particular chap probably did then - the 'don't tell anyone' clause was certainly employed (on him, not me!). Looks like they try and keep these things very quiet, I know of a few just because I was in the locality when they ocurred.
MT
OK, that makes sense. I think that what pr00ne talks about is what this particular chap probably did then - the 'don't tell anyone' clause was certainly employed (on him, not me!). Looks like they try and keep these things very quiet, I know of a few just because I was in the locality when they ocurred.
MT
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There's a few Dark Blue stories of personell challenging the 12 months rule and stating they would only give one months notice aka the European Courts version of notice vs pay interval if you are without contract, as I believe all commissions are. One corker involved the Naval Provost turning up on the doorstop on day 32 and attempting to arrest the retiree, only to be confronted by his rather large solicitor threatening writs for wrongful arrest, harrasment etc, etc worked a treat!!
Appears that if you fight your corner the agreement is "okay you can go but don't tell anyone else!!"
In fairness 12 months notice does give a decent chunk of paid time for those who want it, if His Tonineness really wants 12 months notice then he should put it in the contract.......
,...........you've all got one haven't you??
Appears that if you fight your corner the agreement is "okay you can go but don't tell anyone else!!"
In fairness 12 months notice does give a decent chunk of paid time for those who want it, if His Tonineness really wants 12 months notice then he should put it in the contract.......
,...........you've all got one haven't you??
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More turnover means more people with fairly fresh skills who can be re-called and mobilised for another of Trust-me's expeditonary extravaganzas.....
That would be assuming I got to the letterbox before Mrs Dog, who would simply burn the brown letter!
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I've heard abbreviated/ exaggerated versions of the above stories before. I'd also heard about the instances of the off the record "Alright then, we'll let you go but don't tell anyone about this, ok"
I've had a quick look through my filing cabinet for my contract but can't find it; I must have mislaid it at some stage I presume.
What if you have signed a 6 or 3 year post ocu training return though, or are in acting rank; can they then hold on to you? Seems unlikely that having not given you substantive rank they can then demand your services for 3 years because you accepted acting rank. I've been surprised before though mind you!
I've had a quick look through my filing cabinet for my contract but can't find it; I must have mislaid it at some stage I presume.
What if you have signed a 6 or 3 year post ocu training return though, or are in acting rank; can they then hold on to you? Seems unlikely that having not given you substantive rank they can then demand your services for 3 years because you accepted acting rank. I've been surprised before though mind you!
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EOTB,
Think it breaks down like this;
Acting rank, doesn't change the price of fish.
Return of Service is enforcable as you sent a joining letter in response to your appointment (dark blue speak I'm afraid)
which you signed, therfore accepting the required return of service for that particular course, which you were informed of on the Appointment letter. If you therefore leave you are backtracking on that agreement and therefore have to "Buy" yourself out to recompense the crown for a tiny proportion of the cost of the course or sty until the end of that return of service
Not a Naval Barister by trade but believe this is about right!!
Think it breaks down like this;
Acting rank, doesn't change the price of fish.
Return of Service is enforcable as you sent a joining letter in response to your appointment (dark blue speak I'm afraid)
which you signed, therfore accepting the required return of service for that particular course, which you were informed of on the Appointment letter. If you therefore leave you are backtracking on that agreement and therefore have to "Buy" yourself out to recompense the crown for a tiny proportion of the cost of the course or sty until the end of that return of service
Not a Naval Barister by trade but believe this is about right!!
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Jess
Right on mate I am the same as you!!
Having said that though and having read through the reserve acts, some one like you and me i.e. time served +22 on a permanent pension would only be called out in defence of the homeland anyway.
Not for us a reserve tour to Thumrait!!
Right on mate I am the same as you!!
Having said that though and having read through the reserve acts, some one like you and me i.e. time served +22 on a permanent pension would only be called out in defence of the homeland anyway.
Not for us a reserve tour to Thumrait!!
No one really...why should they in this present climate? (I know they should..but let's face with mass redundancies on the horizon....) One man leaving is not going to make much of a difference; when we are smaller or when getting out becomes an even more attractive option, then maybe they'll take more notice (retention bonuses?????) It reminds me of the analogy about taking your hand out of a bucket of water...there's no hole left is there?
Will we survive long enough to celebrate the Air Force's Centennial..I doubt it and I'm not alone. The future is not that rosy for us Crabs staying an independent arm of UK MOD Plc. There are around 40 starred posts in the Light Blue at the mo....and over 1100 Wg Cdrs waiting for a chance to fill them...the maths isn't good.
HM
Will we survive long enough to celebrate the Air Force's Centennial..I doubt it and I'm not alone. The future is not that rosy for us Crabs staying an independent arm of UK MOD Plc. There are around 40 starred posts in the Light Blue at the mo....and over 1100 Wg Cdrs waiting for a chance to fill them...the maths isn't good.
HM
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I decided to leave at my 8 year point and what really sealed my decision to leave was my AE leader calling me into his office for a chat and intimating that if things went well I could look forward to sitting in that chair one day....hmmmmm...If that was the best I could hope for then it was time to go and try something else!
I found the whole process of leaving very strange - just handed in my 1250, kept what bits of kit I could get away with and went on terminal leave/resettlement.
Thoroughly enjoyed my time but do not regret leaving at all. I am lucky, I still visit Kinloss and get to fly every now and again....the same banter, the same jokes, same faces - but the food is better now!
I found the whole process of leaving very strange - just handed in my 1250, kept what bits of kit I could get away with and went on terminal leave/resettlement.
Thoroughly enjoyed my time but do not regret leaving at all. I am lucky, I still visit Kinloss and get to fly every now and again....the same banter, the same jokes, same faces - but the food is better now!
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PVR Questionnaire
I just learned that the reason I was not sent a PVR Questionnaire was because the that particular process has been taken as a savings measure! Amazing!
We manage to interview the lower ranks when they put their notice in and establish trends in PVR, but there appears to be no (dark blue at least) process in place to address the officer corps!
Surely this is madness?
We manage to interview the lower ranks when they put their notice in and establish trends in PVR, but there appears to be no (dark blue at least) process in place to address the officer corps!
Surely this is madness?
Whilst I wait for my Resettlement clerk to get back to work can any of you advise whether or not one is still eligible for resettlement/ELCs if you PVR?
Just wondering!
Just wondering!
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Oh yes!
You are certainly entitled to ELC's (as long as you have already registered) and you will also be able to claim ELCs for some years after you have departed for greener grass. I can't remember the detail but it's an unusually good deal.
You'll also be pleased to know that after PVR you will also qualify for GRT (Graduated Resettlement Time) which varies with years service but 8+yrs = 25 days, 12+yrs = 30 days.
The admin clerks just love digging all this stuff out. There can be an element of 'if you don't know what you're entitled to then I'm not telling you' but the one I spoke to was very helpful. I'm sure you'll be paying yours a visit when he/she's back at work!
Hope I've cheered you up!!
You are certainly entitled to ELC's (as long as you have already registered) and you will also be able to claim ELCs for some years after you have departed for greener grass. I can't remember the detail but it's an unusually good deal.
You'll also be pleased to know that after PVR you will also qualify for GRT (Graduated Resettlement Time) which varies with years service but 8+yrs = 25 days, 12+yrs = 30 days.
The admin clerks just love digging all this stuff out. There can be an element of 'if you don't know what you're entitled to then I'm not telling you' but the one I spoke to was very helpful. I'm sure you'll be paying yours a visit when he/she's back at work!
Hope I've cheered you up!!
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Huey,
Taking it that your figures are fairly accurate, if the RAF has 1100 Wg Cdrs, assuming each Wg Cdr is responsible for 100 personnel, (a typical figure for a Squadron), then there must be an awful lot of Wg Cdrs with very little responsibility !!!
I also dread to think how many Sqn Ldrs there are in the RAF, I guess there are at least 8 on each of the Squadrons here.
The phrase " too many chiefs and not enough Indians" springs to mind.
Happy New Year everyone,
Taking it that your figures are fairly accurate, if the RAF has 1100 Wg Cdrs, assuming each Wg Cdr is responsible for 100 personnel, (a typical figure for a Squadron), then there must be an awful lot of Wg Cdrs with very little responsibility !!!
I also dread to think how many Sqn Ldrs there are in the RAF, I guess there are at least 8 on each of the Squadrons here.
The phrase " too many chiefs and not enough Indians" springs to mind.
Happy New Year everyone,
Eye off the Ball
Do they count your years served for your PVR pension rate to the date of your PVR submission, or to the date of your departure (ie your term served)?
Strange question but I'm sure you understand my pessimism!
Admin clerk back in work tomorrow!!!!
Do they count your years served for your PVR pension rate to the date of your PVR submission, or to the date of your departure (ie your term served)?
Strange question but I'm sure you understand my pessimism!
Admin clerk back in work tomorrow!!!!