Unrecognisable RAF
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Post WW2 RAF NCO Aircrew Ranking System.
A few of you old timers visiting this thread must remember that CRAZY NCO ranking system which the RAAF, to its discredit, picked up also.
When did the RAF system commence and how long did it persist?
The RAAF introduced it in 1948 and the first post war aircrew trainees wore Laurel Wreath patches to show they were Trainees.
At Wings the pilots became Pilot 4s by inserting a star into the laurel wreath.
Then it was Pilot 3, 2, 1 with successive stars and Master Pilot with a WO's crown instead of stars.
Hear tell that the RAF stars were in the reverse order - P4 = 4 stars, P3 = 3 stars, P2 = 2 stars and P1 = 1 star.
Can anyone confirm that an RAF P1 had 4 stars?
Perhaps the stars should have been rubber stamped on the back of one's hands !
A few of you old timers visiting this thread must remember that CRAZY NCO ranking system which the RAAF, to its discredit, picked up also.
When did the RAF system commence and how long did it persist?
The RAAF introduced it in 1948 and the first post war aircrew trainees wore Laurel Wreath patches to show they were Trainees.
At Wings the pilots became Pilot 4s by inserting a star into the laurel wreath.
Then it was Pilot 3, 2, 1 with successive stars and Master Pilot with a WO's crown instead of stars.
Hear tell that the RAF stars were in the reverse order - P4 = 4 stars, P3 = 3 stars, P2 = 2 stars and P1 = 1 star.
Can anyone confirm that an RAF P1 had 4 stars?
Perhaps the stars should have been rubber stamped on the back of one's hands !
Probably one of the most disturbing changes to take place is the increasing politicisation of the military. Whilst the military is an instrument , albeit a blunt one, of govt policy, and has been for since Pontius was a pilot, it seems to have gotten out of hand in recent years.
Can only lead to disaster as the politicians make yet more cock-ups and then expect the military to bail them out, whilst the senior officers at the top of the military do little or nothing to stand up to them because that wont get them their 'K' or next stripe.
Can only lead to disaster as the politicians make yet more cock-ups and then expect the military to bail them out, whilst the senior officers at the top of the military do little or nothing to stand up to them because that wont get them their 'K' or next stripe.
Last edited by Melchett01; 16th Oct 2004 at 22:59.
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Interesting thread. I've been around for more years than I care to remember and still in the Andrew. Yes things have changed and we've shrunk but has life in Service changed that much? As far as I can see the boys (and girls) are as professional as ever, fly b****y good aircraft and still seem to have fun. They certainly seem to drive better cars (good old FRIs, long may they live!) and crash less. What we need to sort out is the constant attempt in the hQs and MadHouse to get rid of each other, just because one Service is shrinking a bit faster than the other two. Life would be really dull if we were all in the RAF (I think we tried that after WW1 and it didn't work).
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Milt, The post war NCO aircrew ranking system in the RAF had the same 'star' system as the RAAF. Planning an assault on the north face of the loft this afternoon to find a book with details of the dates. However when it all ended in tears unlike the RAAF the Brits and the Kiwis retained the Master Aircrew rank instead of reverting to WO. This I was told was done to pacify 'real' WOs
Incidentally, I wonder how much the new ‘Banana Republic General’ WO rank slides cost. What exactly was wrong with the old ones?
Incidentally, I wonder how much the new ‘Banana Republic General’ WO rank slides cost. What exactly was wrong with the old ones?
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Always broken in Wilts, I can beat you.
I reckon the time of change came with the military salary (and I'd only been in 10 years then). Up until then it was still possible to find JOs sharing cars. Limited bar bills ahd only stopped 10 years earlier but we still didn't earn enough to enjoy ourselves outside the wire.
With the MS we started to earn enough to be able to eat and drink with civvies and start to buy our own cars and houses. We moved out of the mess and mess life started to die. That marked the big change.
Only of dets was everyone back in the mess. I had two good senior officers on my first sqn then we got a new boss - p*ll*ck. One result was that the sqn ldr resigned after his subsequent tour as he had been sh*ft*d too. Good news the CO got shafted on his next tour as well.
From a slightly older persepctive I started to appreciate the wg cdrs better but there were still brown nosers around who pissed everyone else off.
After the MS, the Hodgekinson report did for sqn ldrs what the V-force did for pilots - too many sqn ldrs and too many officers.
OK we now have few toys. Roger Honey's only 1,000 JO aircrew of 15 years ago is probably a lot less now. The professional Ops Support ops officers are a lot cheaper than aircrew even if they keep well out of harms way.
I reckon the time of change came with the military salary (and I'd only been in 10 years then). Up until then it was still possible to find JOs sharing cars. Limited bar bills ahd only stopped 10 years earlier but we still didn't earn enough to enjoy ourselves outside the wire.
With the MS we started to earn enough to be able to eat and drink with civvies and start to buy our own cars and houses. We moved out of the mess and mess life started to die. That marked the big change.
Only of dets was everyone back in the mess. I had two good senior officers on my first sqn then we got a new boss - p*ll*ck. One result was that the sqn ldr resigned after his subsequent tour as he had been sh*ft*d too. Good news the CO got shafted on his next tour as well.
From a slightly older persepctive I started to appreciate the wg cdrs better but there were still brown nosers around who pissed everyone else off.
After the MS, the Hodgekinson report did for sqn ldrs what the V-force did for pilots - too many sqn ldrs and too many officers.
OK we now have few toys. Roger Honey's only 1,000 JO aircrew of 15 years ago is probably a lot less now. The professional Ops Support ops officers are a lot cheaper than aircrew even if they keep well out of harms way.
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Pontius,
Whilst I agree with all you say I believe the reason we find ourselves in such a shambolic state is two fold.
1. The fact that we give our Lords and Masters two years at a time to re invent the wheel before they clear off onwards and upwards leaving absolute mayhem behind
A classic indication of this is that I can't ever remember when procurred anything, from footwear to fighter aircraft that did "exactly what it says on the tin".............can anyone 
2. Divoloving budgetry responsibilty and thus dangling the promotion carrot to those short sighted t@@sers who have left us in the dire financial state we live with day to day.
If there was some sort of accountability then those of us at the coal face could maybe understand but there simply isn't. It's amazing to think that you can make a really inept decision, which will lead to us probably buying another unfit for purpose aircraft, which further leads to the probable closure of an airbase and still move onwards and upwards
As I said I am now just waiting to see if the new pension scheme really offers what it has so far promised, then I'll simply drift in the wind till it's time to collect.........hardly very proffesional but look at the examples my lords and masters are setting
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Whilst I agree with all you say I believe the reason we find ourselves in such a shambolic state is two fold.
1. The fact that we give our Lords and Masters two years at a time to re invent the wheel before they clear off onwards and upwards leaving absolute mayhem behind
A classic indication of this is that I can't ever remember when procurred anything, from footwear to fighter aircraft that did "exactly what it says on the tin".............can anyone 2. Divoloving budgetry responsibilty and thus dangling the promotion carrot to those short sighted t@@sers who have left us in the dire financial state we live with day to day.
If there was some sort of accountability then those of us at the coal face could maybe understand but there simply isn't. It's amazing to think that you can make a really inept decision, which will lead to us probably buying another unfit for purpose aircraft, which further leads to the probable closure of an airbase and still move onwards and upwards
As I said I am now just waiting to see if the new pension scheme really offers what it has so far promised, then I'll simply drift in the wind till it's time to collect.........hardly very proffesional but look at the examples my lords and masters are setting
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Milt,
Found the book. The 'star system' was as you described for the RAAF apart from aircrew one. Aircrew one and two both had three stars; in addition aircrew one had a crown above the 'albatross'.
Aircrew under training known as aircrew cadets (as today) had the Laural leaves and 'albatross' but no stars. Aircrew Cadet to Aircrew one wore the badge on the upper arm as per stripes. Masters wore it on the lower arm as now.
The system ran in the RAF from June 1947 till mid 1950.
Found the book. The 'star system' was as you described for the RAAF apart from aircrew one. Aircrew one and two both had three stars; in addition aircrew one had a crown above the 'albatross'.
Aircrew under training known as aircrew cadets (as today) had the Laural leaves and 'albatross' but no stars. Aircrew Cadet to Aircrew one wore the badge on the upper arm as per stripes. Masters wore it on the lower arm as now.
The system ran in the RAF from June 1947 till mid 1950.
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Have things changed?
After a sojourn of a year or so I have returned to PPrune to spot the sad, tired old arguments that are dragged out by all and sundry about the decay of the RAF. As I am sure others have noted (and I will add my 2 euro-cent worth) the Services are a reflection of society and remained governed by civilians, and a good job, too. Do we want a Navy/General/Air Staff more reminiscent of Turkey - where inter alia they control the education system?
PC nonsense - it may seem like nonsense but would we find jokes about Blacks or disabled people particularly funny now? I attended a Dining In several years ago where a prominent SH driver told a particularly blue joke. There were a few embarrased titters around the room. Most of us cringingly curled our toes in embarrasment. Whether we like the apparent onslaught of 'pc' regulations or not is immaterial. They have been enacted by secondary legislation and thus the Services are obliged to implement them. Much hilarity is also made of seemingly inane H&S regulations, but as a 'Commander' within the Services - at any level - could you rest easily if one of your troops was injured or killed in a preventable peace-time accident that could be attributed to bravado rather than caution. Added to that is the loss of Crown Immunity and the risk of criminal prosecution and personal ligitigation. I accept that there has been a certain feminisation of society - and I would commend B Shephard's 'A War of Nerves', however the resolve shown by our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan show that the mettle is there when required.
Guys - and I suspect the majority of whingers on this thread are men - let's move on with the rest of society and support the Services and the diverse range of personnel contained therein.
Crash (the most boring man in NATO)
PS: Good to see you back Mr C Hine Cap.
PC nonsense - it may seem like nonsense but would we find jokes about Blacks or disabled people particularly funny now? I attended a Dining In several years ago where a prominent SH driver told a particularly blue joke. There were a few embarrased titters around the room. Most of us cringingly curled our toes in embarrasment. Whether we like the apparent onslaught of 'pc' regulations or not is immaterial. They have been enacted by secondary legislation and thus the Services are obliged to implement them. Much hilarity is also made of seemingly inane H&S regulations, but as a 'Commander' within the Services - at any level - could you rest easily if one of your troops was injured or killed in a preventable peace-time accident that could be attributed to bravado rather than caution. Added to that is the loss of Crown Immunity and the risk of criminal prosecution and personal ligitigation. I accept that there has been a certain feminisation of society - and I would commend B Shephard's 'A War of Nerves', however the resolve shown by our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan show that the mettle is there when required.
Guys - and I suspect the majority of whingers on this thread are men - let's move on with the rest of society and support the Services and the diverse range of personnel contained therein.
Crash (the most boring man in NATO)
PS: Good to see you back Mr C Hine Cap.
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BEagle - and I suppose that you find Terry Wogan still amusing? I don't listen to Radio 2 - too Kantian neo-Liberal; I want a good Positivist viewpoint.
Crash (the most boring man in NATO)
Crash (the most boring man in NATO)
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As a JO in the Army I agree that there are alot of "QFT Brown nosers" out there. But any commander worth his salt will spot this a mile away and give it the credit that it is due. *$ck All.I have been fortunate to have commanders that prefer the slightly more robust JO who likes to live life to the max, party, etc. as long as he can still do his job and well.
Having paid numerous visits to the adj's office for a slap on the knuckles for various drunken misdemeanours, I have still managed to stay on all the senior officers good books. Far more I would say than some of the brown nosers I know.
Having thought about a move to the light blue, would I have as much fun??????
debate.
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Fanstop,
I certainly hope so. I've yet to meet a senior light-blue officer without any tales of getting in trouble as a JO, so presumably the odd one doesn't do anything unpleasant to your career. Of course, they're all perfectly well behaved now...
BCH
I certainly hope so. I've yet to meet a senior light-blue officer without any tales of getting in trouble as a JO, so presumably the odd one doesn't do anything unpleasant to your career. Of course, they're all perfectly well behaved now...
BCH
Cambridge Crash - actually BBC2 is a television station. Try pushing the little '625' button on your TV, perhaps? Terry Wogan is on Radio 2, or, as you probably know it, the Light Programme. And yes, (oops, sorry DW freaks, I started a sentence with a conjunction) I find the curmudgeonly old chap's humour as amusing as ever it was.
Not the Gustav Cambridge Crash?
Fanstop sounds a bit of a character who would undoubtedly have had equal fun in the RAF of yore. But now....?
Let's have Boris Johnson for PM and bring some colour into the grey-suited world.
Not the Gustav Cambridge Crash?
Fanstop sounds a bit of a character who would undoubtedly have had equal fun in the RAF of yore. But now....?
Let's have Boris Johnson for PM and bring some colour into the grey-suited world.
Last edited by BEagle; 26th Oct 2004 at 16:22.
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I still quite like the RAF. It may be different to the one I joined almost 20 years ago but I suspect the kids of today are more aware of what it is all about than I was in 1985. In fact, I can see the 'attraction' of OOA dets etc. However, this is not the RAF that I joined and it has been a bit of a culture shock changing from Fortress Germany to Expeditionary ops.
I will leave in 2 years time. I cannot complain as I have achieved much. There is no bitterness or anger, merely a feeling of tiredness and a need to move on.
To those that have just joined, or are considering joining, good luck. The RAF is still what you make of it. In many respects, it may offer more family stability as we draw down to a relatively small number of bases.
Finally, I echo some of the previous comments. As a 19 yr old pilot officer in Germany on my first tour, I was told by an experienced flt lt "Don't hang around son, it isn't the RAF I joined". He was most probably right but I did hang around and I did enjoy it. Let's not get too negative about change; I think those of us who have had exposure to life outside the services would acknowledge that we are surrounded in uncertainty.
I will leave in 2 years time. I cannot complain as I have achieved much. There is no bitterness or anger, merely a feeling of tiredness and a need to move on.
To those that have just joined, or are considering joining, good luck. The RAF is still what you make of it. In many respects, it may offer more family stability as we draw down to a relatively small number of bases.
Finally, I echo some of the previous comments. As a 19 yr old pilot officer in Germany on my first tour, I was told by an experienced flt lt "Don't hang around son, it isn't the RAF I joined". He was most probably right but I did hang around and I did enjoy it. Let's not get too negative about change; I think those of us who have had exposure to life outside the services would acknowledge that we are surrounded in uncertainty.
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Wash your hard drive out, Cambridge Crash! How dare you come onto PPRuNe suggesting the armed forces ought to bear any resemblance to the society they serve. Why, the very notion is tantamount to high treason. If white, heterosexual, conservative men can't find asylum (asylum: don't get me started on that) in the armed forces, without having to encounter poofs, women, ethnics and bloody loafing, useless youths, what is the world coming to? Please don't get me wrong. I have absolutely nothing against gays, women, ethnic minorities or young people, provided they conduct themselves like white, heterosexual, conservative men. Is that too much to ask?
As for the EU, health & safety and political correctness, I suppose you'll be telling us next that the Euro straight banana was a myth and that the working at height regs don't really mean a warning sign has to be posted at the base of every mountain in the UK (it must be true, the Daily Mail said so).
Oh God. They said I'd catch it if I stayed here too long. I've got advanced PPRuNitus (or Clarkson-Lee-Potter's Disease) and the virulent Daily Maillitus strain at that.
As for the EU, health & safety and political correctness, I suppose you'll be telling us next that the Euro straight banana was a myth and that the working at height regs don't really mean a warning sign has to be posted at the base of every mountain in the UK (it must be true, the Daily Mail said so).
Oh God. They said I'd catch it if I stayed here too long. I've got advanced PPRuNitus (or Clarkson-Lee-Potter's Disease) and the virulent Daily Maillitus strain at that.
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Well, it is the RAF I joined just a couple of years ago. I'm leaving as soon as possible. To all those of you who enjoy it and think it's the best: Good for you guys, I wish I did.
Crash. As a "commander" in the services, do you not think it is reasonable to expect that even the lowest common denominator under your supervision, doesn't pour acid in their eyes, or that we can rely on our inherent good nature to not make inappropriate comments/jokes. And (I haven't done service writing yet) should we step out of line and offend someone, our peers should have the sense to put us straight! Do we need a team of monkey's working around the clock legislating against calling people things we shouldn't call them, or 'training' the thicker of us that acid burns?
Beagle, I will vote Boris J for PM any day of the week. Not sure if a PM with a personality and/or a spine is allowed though.
Cheers, and remember: Health and safety is a darwinian process!
Crash. As a "commander" in the services, do you not think it is reasonable to expect that even the lowest common denominator under your supervision, doesn't pour acid in their eyes, or that we can rely on our inherent good nature to not make inappropriate comments/jokes. And (I haven't done service writing yet) should we step out of line and offend someone, our peers should have the sense to put us straight! Do we need a team of monkey's working around the clock legislating against calling people things we shouldn't call them, or 'training' the thicker of us that acid burns?
Beagle, I will vote Boris J for PM any day of the week. Not sure if a PM with a personality and/or a spine is allowed though.
Cheers, and remember: Health and safety is a darwinian process!
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Crash has his reasons for coming back to the threads from Cambridge and in this way - I won't go into them, but it is better he is there - trust me! Good to see you are finally doing something constructive my man.
Some legislation is too much - some not enough. I think it is reasonable to stop bullying (initiation some call it), pollution and make things safer. Politicians rule us and they are civvies, and we work for civvies, and we were and will once again be civvies. So be it. Just make the best of any situation and make it fit best.
Oh - no such thing as a civillian - just Servicemen waiting to join up
Some legislation is too much - some not enough. I think it is reasonable to stop bullying (initiation some call it), pollution and make things safer. Politicians rule us and they are civvies, and we work for civvies, and we were and will once again be civvies. So be it. Just make the best of any situation and make it fit best.
Oh - no such thing as a civillian - just Servicemen waiting to join up
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
AWIW, I agree one hundred percent about the two year tours. If a jobs is worth doing 'for my promotion' it must be done (but not dusted) before I am posted.
Only after I am posted does the next poor sod have to dust it and see if it works. If it takes 5 years then tough on the guy in the middle.
Had one boss, now dead as he hit a hill in a Herc, he took over as SLOPS after his predecessor, a professional ops officer I was told, had designed the new Ops block. He did not even check the progress of the building as it was not scheduled to be ready before his tourex.
Come the day, under a new Slops, we went in to our brand new building. Briefing room, self-briefing room, coffee bar. Brilliant. Only one snag. No Ops Room. Ops was in a wide corridor between Admin and Comcen.
The new Slops naturally go the credit for my colleague who designed and the carpenter who built an Ops room, two walls, doors, three desks, ops boards, the lot all in two weeks.
And I bet you have been there. This was 20 years ago.
Only after I am posted does the next poor sod have to dust it and see if it works. If it takes 5 years then tough on the guy in the middle.
Had one boss, now dead as he hit a hill in a Herc, he took over as SLOPS after his predecessor, a professional ops officer I was told, had designed the new Ops block. He did not even check the progress of the building as it was not scheduled to be ready before his tourex.
Come the day, under a new Slops, we went in to our brand new building. Briefing room, self-briefing room, coffee bar. Brilliant. Only one snag. No Ops Room. Ops was in a wide corridor between Admin and Comcen.
The new Slops naturally go the credit for my colleague who designed and the carpenter who built an Ops room, two walls, doors, three desks, ops boards, the lot all in two weeks.
And I bet you have been there. This was 20 years ago.
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I joined 23 years ago, no it's not the same Air Force as then but I've enjoyed all of my time. It's like everything else in life, it's what you make it. Maybe I've just been lucky but I haven't felt that I've been "shat on" yet. I like my job and will continue to do it in the company of mates who still give the quality of banter they used to and, more importantly, still do as good and professional a job as they can.
I've only got one life to live, if things were better before I was born or joined then there's not a lot I can do about it! Think I'll just make the most of my own time and enjoy the present before it becomes "the good old days".
I'll start by not wasting any more time at this computer as I don't want to be labled with x thousand posts... I've got better things to do....
I've only got one life to live, if things were better before I was born or joined then there's not a lot I can do about it! Think I'll just make the most of my own time and enjoy the present before it becomes "the good old days".
I'll start by not wasting any more time at this computer as I don't want to be labled with x thousand posts... I've got better things to do....