Disbandment Options...
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Disbandment Options...
Current rumours about cutbacks involve the following:
Bye bye Jags
Goodbye GR4s
Ta-ta the Maritime fleet
Tschuss to the F-3
My question is this...
what will all the bird-scarers do?
Bye bye Jags
Goodbye GR4s
Ta-ta the Maritime fleet
Tschuss to the F-3
My question is this...
what will all the bird-scarers do?
The maritime fleet? Can't see that with all the entertaining jobs you guys do? Where'd you hear that ratrod?
Jags yes, maybe even a squadron of GR4s and increase the airframe numbers on the remaining sqns. But F3s as well? I thought the ALARM F3s idea was quite good. Maybe even do a complete re-role of an F3 sqn??
Jags yes, maybe even a squadron of GR4s and increase the airframe numbers on the remaining sqns. But F3s as well? I thought the ALARM F3s idea was quite good. Maybe even do a complete re-role of an F3 sqn??
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Bit obvious this really is it not? So here is my guess....
6 Sqn to disband by 31 Jan 05, with the remaining three Jag Sqns merging to 2 over the course of that year with an end date of sometime late in 06.
Lose another F3 Sqn and GR4 Sqn as well as the entire Puma force, reduce Typhoon numbers to below 100 airframes, scrap MRA4, get rid of 3 Group and have only 1 & 2 Groups.
And a wish list, cnx A400M and buy something that's proven operationally, purchase a few more chinooks and replace Puma with Blackhawk (muted around the rotary arena). Oh yes shut Buchan, Neatishead and Boulmer and move them all to one new build ASACS unit, Scampton sounds as good a place as any!!!
Restructure the RAF Regiment!!
6 Sqn to disband by 31 Jan 05, with the remaining three Jag Sqns merging to 2 over the course of that year with an end date of sometime late in 06.
Lose another F3 Sqn and GR4 Sqn as well as the entire Puma force, reduce Typhoon numbers to below 100 airframes, scrap MRA4, get rid of 3 Group and have only 1 & 2 Groups.
And a wish list, cnx A400M and buy something that's proven operationally, purchase a few more chinooks and replace Puma with Blackhawk (muted around the rotary arena). Oh yes shut Buchan, Neatishead and Boulmer and move them all to one new build ASACS unit, Scampton sounds as good a place as any!!!
Restructure the RAF Regiment!!
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Civilian calling – Clearly there isn’t going to be enough money, the Army need more blokes, the Navy need more carriers and the RAF need more pilots and aircraft.
So why should there be an RAF Regiment at all?
So why should there be an RAF Regiment at all?
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MINOR UNIT BASING STUDY
Originally posted this as a new thread, but the way this one's going thought I would relocate it.
For some months (years?) now, a study has been going on into the viability of continuing to operate the number of 'small RAF units' that we currently have. I believe it is called the 'Minor Units Basing Study'
The Study was expected to be completed before Xmas 2003, and results announced in Jan, then Feb, then Mar now possibly Apr 2004.
Amongst other things, the expansion of Scampton seems to have been considered as a home for several other units, including TCW, 1 ACC, ASACS and a number of others. This would, in many cases, lead to closure of existing units, so the issue is quite sensitive in areas where unemployment and the local economy are an issue.
Our local MP visited the Min AF this week, but would not give out any information on TV other than to say he was 'disappointed' with the outcome of his discussions (I believe Coltishall and Neatishead were his particular areas of concern).
Does anyone out there have any idea whether and what decisions have been made? Does anyone have any firm idea when the results are to be announced? Will those of us affected be the last to find out?
STH
For some months (years?) now, a study has been going on into the viability of continuing to operate the number of 'small RAF units' that we currently have. I believe it is called the 'Minor Units Basing Study'
The Study was expected to be completed before Xmas 2003, and results announced in Jan, then Feb, then Mar now possibly Apr 2004.
Amongst other things, the expansion of Scampton seems to have been considered as a home for several other units, including TCW, 1 ACC, ASACS and a number of others. This would, in many cases, lead to closure of existing units, so the issue is quite sensitive in areas where unemployment and the local economy are an issue.
Our local MP visited the Min AF this week, but would not give out any information on TV other than to say he was 'disappointed' with the outcome of his discussions (I believe Coltishall and Neatishead were his particular areas of concern).
Does anyone out there have any idea whether and what decisions have been made? Does anyone have any firm idea when the results are to be announced? Will those of us affected be the last to find out?
STH
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DuckDodgers:
Why No6 Sqn? Seems rather specific for a rumour network.
Sir Toppo:
Rumour has it that decisions not likely before the Defence Management Board have had a tree-hugging sometime next month. May be some months after before anything is announced. So what's the urgency?
Why No6 Sqn? Seems rather specific for a rumour network.
Sir Toppo:
Rumour has it that decisions not likely before the Defence Management Board have had a tree-hugging sometime next month. May be some months after before anything is announced. So what's the urgency?
No.6 is already scheduled to be the first of the Jag units to disappear (down declaring on 1 November 2006), with the others following in 07 and 08.
The problem is that getting rid of the Jag early would:
a) result in an unacceptable loss of capability.
b) be getting rid of arguably the most cost-effective way of delivering capability
c) make it more difficult to maintain a single-seat OS-experienced cadre for the Typhoon force, which requires at least four such blokes for each forming EF AD squadron (and presumably more for the FB and MR squadrons?), along with eight F3 mates and no more than four ab initios.
If anything, as the EF slips to the right, the Jag force needs to be bolstered and even expanded, perhaps by adding some of those nearly new jets now sitting as GI airframes at Cosford. One could see real value in the Jags being used in the way that the Hunters of 45/58 Squadrons were used back in the 70s, maintaining a pool of OS-trained single seat pilots pending the availability of Typhoon vacancies.
Who When Why
It's all gone very quiet on F3 ALARM, and my guess is that the one year's funding gained with the original UOR has run out and not been replaced.
Cutting a GR7 Squadron, a GR4 Squadron and an F3 Squadron would all make sense if the released airframes were used to sustain the remaining aircraft through to a later OSD, helping to cover the gaps left by Typhoon, JSF and FOA delays, and if surplus aircrew were used to plug gaps and man the extra Jag units!
I could see the Puma fleet down-sizing (even with the extra ex-SAAF airframes bought recently - anyone know what happened to those?) simply because the airframes are old, tired and well-used.
Quiz question: How many Gripens could you buy for the £5.5 - 5.8 Bn we're spending on these two carriers?
A: About 230-250........
The problem is that getting rid of the Jag early would:
a) result in an unacceptable loss of capability.
b) be getting rid of arguably the most cost-effective way of delivering capability
c) make it more difficult to maintain a single-seat OS-experienced cadre for the Typhoon force, which requires at least four such blokes for each forming EF AD squadron (and presumably more for the FB and MR squadrons?), along with eight F3 mates and no more than four ab initios.
If anything, as the EF slips to the right, the Jag force needs to be bolstered and even expanded, perhaps by adding some of those nearly new jets now sitting as GI airframes at Cosford. One could see real value in the Jags being used in the way that the Hunters of 45/58 Squadrons were used back in the 70s, maintaining a pool of OS-trained single seat pilots pending the availability of Typhoon vacancies.
Who When Why
It's all gone very quiet on F3 ALARM, and my guess is that the one year's funding gained with the original UOR has run out and not been replaced.
Cutting a GR7 Squadron, a GR4 Squadron and an F3 Squadron would all make sense if the released airframes were used to sustain the remaining aircraft through to a later OSD, helping to cover the gaps left by Typhoon, JSF and FOA delays, and if surplus aircrew were used to plug gaps and man the extra Jag units!
I could see the Puma fleet down-sizing (even with the extra ex-SAAF airframes bought recently - anyone know what happened to those?) simply because the airframes are old, tired and well-used.
Quiz question: How many Gripens could you buy for the £5.5 - 5.8 Bn we're spending on these two carriers?
A: About 230-250........
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Ref: Very tired Puma fleet
The purchased white elephant Pumas are apparently in containers in or around Wattisham, probably to stop them being robbed for spares.
The engines and avionics are incompatable with the present fleet, and the powers that made the decision to buy, do not want a fleet within a fleet. Especially as the SAAF ones have anticipators which the Puma mates have been asking for for over 30 years.
Most Puma aircraft have been cat 4 at some time and XW210 is a classic cut and shunt. The top half has been to the bottom of the English Channel and back. The bottom half rolled over and caught fire after being taxied into a hangar in Belize. The tail is from a third aircraft. This is what our front line is flying!!
Ripple lines and `structeral strengthening` plates are indicative of how bodged the Puma fleet is, yet there is supposed to be at least 12 years life left in it.
The fleet has served the UK well since 1971, but without any torque guage or HUMs has been `tested` by crews since day one.
If a replacement is not announced soon (SABR?) it will soon let everbody down in the manner that the once mighty Wessex did in its last days of service.
Even the Argentinians and Rumainians have retired theirs to museums or atop poles outside bases.
How long before we get a reality check on this faithfull (if French) old warhorse:
The engines and avionics are incompatable with the present fleet, and the powers that made the decision to buy, do not want a fleet within a fleet. Especially as the SAAF ones have anticipators which the Puma mates have been asking for for over 30 years.
Most Puma aircraft have been cat 4 at some time and XW210 is a classic cut and shunt. The top half has been to the bottom of the English Channel and back. The bottom half rolled over and caught fire after being taxied into a hangar in Belize. The tail is from a third aircraft. This is what our front line is flying!!
Ripple lines and `structeral strengthening` plates are indicative of how bodged the Puma fleet is, yet there is supposed to be at least 12 years life left in it.
The fleet has served the UK well since 1971, but without any torque guage or HUMs has been `tested` by crews since day one.
If a replacement is not announced soon (SABR?) it will soon let everbody down in the manner that the once mighty Wessex did in its last days of service.
Even the Argentinians and Rumainians have retired theirs to museums or atop poles outside bases.
How long before we get a reality check on this faithfull (if French) old warhorse:
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Losses
Cant believe that 6 Sqn will be the first Jag sqn to go. Arent they the senior sqn at Colt? I would guess that 54 would go first but also suspect they will all go in one fell swoop
jack_k: that's exactly why they'll go first. The idea is that 6 will reform as one of the first two front line Typhoon units, leaving 11, 16, 25, 41, 43, 54, 56 and 111 to compete to be the numberplates for the remaining five or six Typhoon squadrons (complicated by the fact that 3 Sqn is almost certain to take one of these slots after it loses the GR7).
If you're feeling really bored, the thread about disbandments and numberplates gives hours of endless fun explaining all of this. If you browse it, remember to don an anorak!
If you're feeling really bored, the thread about disbandments and numberplates gives hours of endless fun explaining all of this. If you browse it, remember to don an anorak!
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Urgency?
Phil Sparks
Neatishead will up-sticks this summer and relocate to use the new UCCS kit at Boulmer. In theory, this will be for several months whilst Neatishead is renovated and the new UCCS kit is installed there, whereupon Buchan will close, leaving 2 CRCs; one at Boulmer and one at Neat.
A good number of people have already spent a significant amount of time living separated due to the planned move slipping to the right. People posted to Neatishead in, say May 2003, anticipated a move to Boulmer in the summer of 2003. It made good sense to move families direct to Boulmer pending the due move. However, the project has gradually slipped to the right (for various reasons that I won't go into here) so that we have an ever-increasing number of people (at ALL ranks) serving separated for an ever-increasing period.
Some people will be posted to Boulmer, but many will not, expecting to return to Neatishead once it has been refurbished. Some of these people are opting to serve unaccompanied (though there is not enough accommodation for everyone at Boulmer anyway) until they return, giving families a bit of stability at the expense of separation. People have houses here, Spouses have jobs in the local area, children are in schools and so on, but the future is uncertain. Rumours abound of a move to Scampton, or possibly elsewhere.
The powers that be at Neatishead are doing their very best to ameliorate the impact of the delays on the lives of the personnel, but until the decision about the Minor Units is announced, no-one really knows what's happening.
Apart from the domestic issues, there is a whole raft of operational, trg and planning activity that is almost impossible to make sense of without knowing the end target. A huge number of 'what-ifs' will simply disappear once the decision has been announced.
Most people accept that we have taken HM's shilling and will move as required. However, it would seem that the decision has been made about our future, but the Government won't approve it's release. This is, at best, somewhat frustrating.
By the way, the new kit is needed because the old kit is obsolete and can no longer be supported. No significant increase in capability is planned, but the new kit should at least be more reliable than what we currently have, and may even meet the H&S requirements!
So what's the urgency?
A good number of people have already spent a significant amount of time living separated due to the planned move slipping to the right. People posted to Neatishead in, say May 2003, anticipated a move to Boulmer in the summer of 2003. It made good sense to move families direct to Boulmer pending the due move. However, the project has gradually slipped to the right (for various reasons that I won't go into here) so that we have an ever-increasing number of people (at ALL ranks) serving separated for an ever-increasing period.
Some people will be posted to Boulmer, but many will not, expecting to return to Neatishead once it has been refurbished. Some of these people are opting to serve unaccompanied (though there is not enough accommodation for everyone at Boulmer anyway) until they return, giving families a bit of stability at the expense of separation. People have houses here, Spouses have jobs in the local area, children are in schools and so on, but the future is uncertain. Rumours abound of a move to Scampton, or possibly elsewhere.
The powers that be at Neatishead are doing their very best to ameliorate the impact of the delays on the lives of the personnel, but until the decision about the Minor Units is announced, no-one really knows what's happening.
Apart from the domestic issues, there is a whole raft of operational, trg and planning activity that is almost impossible to make sense of without knowing the end target. A huge number of 'what-ifs' will simply disappear once the decision has been announced.
Most people accept that we have taken HM's shilling and will move as required. However, it would seem that the decision has been made about our future, but the Government won't approve it's release. This is, at best, somewhat frustrating.
By the way, the new kit is needed because the old kit is obsolete and can no longer be supported. No significant increase in capability is planned, but the new kit should at least be more reliable than what we currently have, and may even meet the H&S requirements!
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Exodus into the light?
Sir Top!
When are the CRC brigade going to finally decentralize and embed into the squadrons?
Do ya think it will ever happen? 1 ACC are ever expanding, proving that mobilty is the key (or was that flexibilty) - do the light blue widger-wavers have the technology to pitch up mit laptop, plug into some wiggly amp socket and control from remote locations? How many risk assessments will that take!?
Always questions, never answers
When are the CRC brigade going to finally decentralize and embed into the squadrons?
Do ya think it will ever happen? 1 ACC are ever expanding, proving that mobilty is the key (or was that flexibilty) - do the light blue widger-wavers have the technology to pitch up mit laptop, plug into some wiggly amp socket and control from remote locations? How many risk assessments will that take!?
Always questions, never answers
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Embed with the sqns?
Love to! IMHO the technology already exists to do it and, with the right 'drive' I am sure it will happen ... just as soon as the RAF's remaining 2 sqns relocate to Scampton in 2007!
The current moves are being undertaken on the basis that they are needed due to the existing kit being knackered. The plan has been sold to the bean counters on the basis that this is a UKADGE Capability Maintenance Programme (UCMP), so there will be no 'increase in capability'.
I think the new kit (MS Windows-based) has far more potential for portability and configurability. There are also developments with the (MACE?) kit used by 1 ACC when 'in garrison', and recent installations at Waddington that are edging towards the sort of capability you suggest. Unfortunately, in the current climate, I don't see any additional cash being made available to provide a sqn-based control capability, but IMHO, we should be aiming for CPs at the 2 Typhoon MOBs within the next 5-10 years (well, I can dream can't I?)
STH
Love to! IMHO the technology already exists to do it and, with the right 'drive' I am sure it will happen ... just as soon as the RAF's remaining 2 sqns relocate to Scampton in 2007!
The current moves are being undertaken on the basis that they are needed due to the existing kit being knackered. The plan has been sold to the bean counters on the basis that this is a UKADGE Capability Maintenance Programme (UCMP), so there will be no 'increase in capability'.
I think the new kit (MS Windows-based) has far more potential for portability and configurability. There are also developments with the (MACE?) kit used by 1 ACC when 'in garrison', and recent installations at Waddington that are edging towards the sort of capability you suggest. Unfortunately, in the current climate, I don't see any additional cash being made available to provide a sqn-based control capability, but IMHO, we should be aiming for CPs at the 2 Typhoon MOBs within the next 5-10 years (well, I can dream can't I?)
STH
