Aircrew Q&A.
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Aircrew Q&A.
Dear PPRuNe' ers
Are there any SNCO AEOps (in old money) or those 'in the know' who could advise an old guy with a career question. I realise that posting on this site can be hazardous, but I'd be grateful for serious responses only.
Basically, I'm 33 and working as a government lawyer (undergrad degree in law and postgrad degree in international relations) and am seriously contemplating a career change to flying. This is something I've wanted to do for a very long time. However, my interest has always been military flying. I recently did the RAF Cranwell flying aptitude tests with the GAPAN (www.gapan.org for those interested) and scored 'High' (top 10%, I'm advised). Whilst I am way too old for Pilot in the RAF/RN, I am genuinely very interested in the career of an SNCO AEOp, and I am aware that this is still open to me (RAF advise that one can apply up to and including 34). Whilst I realise this is not flying in the front seat sense, I am still intrigued by the prospects. I should add that I used to be commissioned in the Army, but left for the law and marriage (which put the brakes on flying for the military!).
I should be interested to hear what anyone with useful advice thinks the RAF would make of an application from someone with the above bits and pieces.
I greatly look forward to any useful thoughts and comments. Please feel free to PM me.
Sincerely yours
Argo
Are there any SNCO AEOps (in old money) or those 'in the know' who could advise an old guy with a career question. I realise that posting on this site can be hazardous, but I'd be grateful for serious responses only.
Basically, I'm 33 and working as a government lawyer (undergrad degree in law and postgrad degree in international relations) and am seriously contemplating a career change to flying. This is something I've wanted to do for a very long time. However, my interest has always been military flying. I recently did the RAF Cranwell flying aptitude tests with the GAPAN (www.gapan.org for those interested) and scored 'High' (top 10%, I'm advised). Whilst I am way too old for Pilot in the RAF/RN, I am genuinely very interested in the career of an SNCO AEOp, and I am aware that this is still open to me (RAF advise that one can apply up to and including 34). Whilst I realise this is not flying in the front seat sense, I am still intrigued by the prospects. I should add that I used to be commissioned in the Army, but left for the law and marriage (which put the brakes on flying for the military!).
I should be interested to hear what anyone with useful advice thinks the RAF would make of an application from someone with the above bits and pieces.
I greatly look forward to any useful thoughts and comments. Please feel free to PM me.
Sincerely yours
Argo
Last edited by Argo; 10th Oct 2003 at 23:44.
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Gentleman Aviator
Argo
I fear the previous commission (even an Army one!
) may be a problem. On reading your post, an aging neurone fired up in my trivia banks and said that having been commissioned, you could nevr serve in a non-commissioned capacity ........ best of luck anyway.
I fear the previous commission (even an Army one!
) may be a problem. On reading your post, an aging neurone fired up in my trivia banks and said that having been commissioned, you could nevr serve in a non-commissioned capacity ........ best of luck anyway.
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Argo,
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but.......
You will see clearly, especially as a lawyer, that there is an immense amount of unhappiness amongst the NCA world.
I left the mob earlier this year after 32 yrs as an AEOp (NOT some fancy WSO nonesense) When I joined, I was as happy as 'Happy as larry' but 32 years takes it's toll, and I fear that the vast majority of NCA are now feeling pretty much as I did, when I left. Fed Up & demoralised,
There is little (if any) job satisfaction left, other than, I suspect in the SAR world. On the Nimrod fleet you are regarded as a no-one, and the AEW is no better (even part-time aircrew , in the form of Fighter controllers are given a higher status than proffessional AEOps)
This will no doubt cause a stir amongst the others, but it is a sad fact.
Stick with being lawyer, earn lots of money and do your PPL. At least then you will be able to fly (yourself) when you like, where you like, with who you like and most important at what TIME you like.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
ps Caruthers says Check out that old pension forum onh Military Aircrew - that might convince you!!
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but.......
You will see clearly, especially as a lawyer, that there is an immense amount of unhappiness amongst the NCA world.
I left the mob earlier this year after 32 yrs as an AEOp (NOT some fancy WSO nonesense) When I joined, I was as happy as 'Happy as larry' but 32 years takes it's toll, and I fear that the vast majority of NCA are now feeling pretty much as I did, when I left. Fed Up & demoralised,
There is little (if any) job satisfaction left, other than, I suspect in the SAR world. On the Nimrod fleet you are regarded as a no-one, and the AEW is no better (even part-time aircrew , in the form of Fighter controllers are given a higher status than proffessional AEOps)
This will no doubt cause a stir amongst the others, but it is a sad fact.
Stick with being lawyer, earn lots of money and do your PPL. At least then you will be able to fly (yourself) when you like, where you like, with who you like and most important at what TIME you like.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
ps Caruthers says Check out that old pension forum onh Military Aircrew - that might convince you!!
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Argo,
Don't be put off by the negative comments you have (and may continue) to receive re: WSOp/AEOp. Having spent over 20 years in the RAF, 12 of them as an AEOp, I can tell you that, in general, it's a good life. The pay is fair and the job usually challenging and interesting. With regard to Swinging M's comment that on the E3-D:
"even part-time aircrew, in the form of Fighter controllers are given a higher status than proffessional AEOps"
I never found that to be true when I was on the E3 fleet. The job on Nimrods is about to change out of all recognition, SAR is still the best job in the RAF and E3's are are a travelling party machine. If you fancy a good job (as opposed to a career) then AEOp/WSOp still has a lot to offer.
good luck.
Don't be put off by the negative comments you have (and may continue) to receive re: WSOp/AEOp. Having spent over 20 years in the RAF, 12 of them as an AEOp, I can tell you that, in general, it's a good life. The pay is fair and the job usually challenging and interesting. With regard to Swinging M's comment that on the E3-D:
"even part-time aircrew, in the form of Fighter controllers are given a higher status than proffessional AEOps"
I never found that to be true when I was on the E3 fleet. The job on Nimrods is about to change out of all recognition, SAR is still the best job in the RAF and E3's are are a travelling party machine. If you fancy a good job (as opposed to a career) then AEOp/WSOp still has a lot to offer.
good luck.
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left one o clock
Interesting comments there, not sure I would agree with them entirely however, but....
ask yourself this one question.........
if it is such a GOOD life, and if the pay (as you say) is FAIR, and if its as challenging and interesting as you say, how come NO ONE wants to do it? There is your answer I fear
I wouldn't complain about the pay - other than FP (which we all know we got screwed on again recently) but come on, be realistic - challenging? interesting? on an E-3D? Yeh, sure, when the muck and bullets are flying it is moderately more 'exciting' but thats about it. Down at 200' in a Nimrod, yep that interesting also. But thats about it.
And FCs are NOT given higher status than AEOps? what are you on? There is no doubt whatsoever, that Fighter Controllers (NCO or otherwise) are given infinately more respect and status than any AEOp will EVER be given on an E-3D.
The only thing I agree with you on is SAR, where thank goodness, you ARE respected, and where the job IS interesting, rewarding and satisfying. Can't comment on Nimrods - so long ago now, they are a distant blur!
Good luck what ever you choose Argo, but if I had my time again, I would go for Loadie! - yes Loadie. More aircraft to fly, more interesting job I'm certain of, and being more of an (important) team member.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
ps Caruthers says 'whats wrong with being a lawyer?'
Interesting comments there, not sure I would agree with them entirely however, but....
ask yourself this one question.........
if it is such a GOOD life, and if the pay (as you say) is FAIR, and if its as challenging and interesting as you say, how come NO ONE wants to do it? There is your answer I fear
I wouldn't complain about the pay - other than FP (which we all know we got screwed on again recently) but come on, be realistic - challenging? interesting? on an E-3D? Yeh, sure, when the muck and bullets are flying it is moderately more 'exciting' but thats about it. Down at 200' in a Nimrod, yep that interesting also. But thats about it.
And FCs are NOT given higher status than AEOps? what are you on? There is no doubt whatsoever, that Fighter Controllers (NCO or otherwise) are given infinately more respect and status than any AEOp will EVER be given on an E-3D.
The only thing I agree with you on is SAR, where thank goodness, you ARE respected, and where the job IS interesting, rewarding and satisfying. Can't comment on Nimrods - so long ago now, they are a distant blur!
Good luck what ever you choose Argo, but if I had my time again, I would go for Loadie! - yes Loadie. More aircraft to fly, more interesting job I'm certain of, and being more of an (important) team member.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
ps Caruthers says 'whats wrong with being a lawyer?'
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SM
I hate to get away from the theme of the original discussion, but I must question if you have ever flown on an E-3D. I have, and I see no evidence that FCs enjoy a status above AEOs, in fact I'd argue, if I could be bothered, that there's a great deal of evidence to support the opposite.
A few AEOs/AEOps/WSOs are their own worst enemy. They arrive at Waddo and spend all their time talking about how great the MR2 is and how bad Kinloss is. They show little enthusiasm for the job, but great skill in loudly deriding every eventuality from the comfort of the crewroom. FCs by comparison have escaped a life of mundane misery. For them the E-3 is seen as the pinnacle of their trade, not some side-alley away from the main core business. Naturally then, they are generally enthusiastic, open to new ideas, and as keen as mustard.
Waddo operates a relatively strict meritocracy for the mission crews. Therefore, if you were looking for crew execs who would you pick?? I'd wager it's not the crewroom lawyer full of negative opinion. I think that if AEOs/AEOps precieve they are 2nd or 3rd class, then a fair proportion of the responsibility for that must rest in your own backyard.
R&R
I hate to get away from the theme of the original discussion, but I must question if you have ever flown on an E-3D. I have, and I see no evidence that FCs enjoy a status above AEOs, in fact I'd argue, if I could be bothered, that there's a great deal of evidence to support the opposite.
A few AEOs/AEOps/WSOs are their own worst enemy. They arrive at Waddo and spend all their time talking about how great the MR2 is and how bad Kinloss is. They show little enthusiasm for the job, but great skill in loudly deriding every eventuality from the comfort of the crewroom. FCs by comparison have escaped a life of mundane misery. For them the E-3 is seen as the pinnacle of their trade, not some side-alley away from the main core business. Naturally then, they are generally enthusiastic, open to new ideas, and as keen as mustard.
Waddo operates a relatively strict meritocracy for the mission crews. Therefore, if you were looking for crew execs who would you pick?? I'd wager it's not the crewroom lawyer full of negative opinion. I think that if AEOs/AEOps precieve they are 2nd or 3rd class, then a fair proportion of the responsibility for that must rest in your own backyard.
R&R
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Continuing to drift of topic, but heh, that's what we do.
I agree wholeheartedly that the Sentry operated a 'fairly strict meritocracy policy' and I agree that 'some' AEOps came to the aircraft with certain preconceptions, but on the whole I firmly believe the aircraft is the best in the world at what it does and that it holds that enviable position because of the synergistic effect of having a varied selection of 'backenders' operating it. A bit pompous perhaps, but true nevertheless.
Back to the topic?
I agree wholeheartedly that the Sentry operated a 'fairly strict meritocracy policy' and I agree that 'some' AEOps came to the aircraft with certain preconceptions, but on the whole I firmly believe the aircraft is the best in the world at what it does and that it holds that enviable position because of the synergistic effect of having a varied selection of 'backenders' operating it. A bit pompous perhaps, but true nevertheless.
Back to the topic?
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Held a commission before?
Dont worry Argo, Lawrence of Arabia held a commission in the army before he joined the RAF as a Senior Aircraftsman. Mind you he did change his name first!!
Good luck whatever you decide.
Min
Good luck whatever you decide.
Min
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Mucho gracias
Dear PRuNe'ers
Many thanks for your comments and thougts. I appreciate the efforts of those who wrote in and gave their '2 pennies' worth.
I do admit that I'm not too bothered by negative comments as those in the service are legitimately entitled to gripe. I have not discounted the NCA route, much less the ATPL route. That being said, my preferences were always bent towards the military. It's only because going dowe to OASC to do the RAF/RN/GAPAN tests that I re-looked at the mil route. When I was considering Pilot all those years ago, the AEOp was always my second choice.
The fact that aircrew is non-commissioned bothers me none. I made as many NCO friends in the Army as Officer. To me, the difference came down to experience, as I always took the view that any half decent leader would consult (using the good ol' fashioned 'lets have a quick chin wag on this one' route) his/her NCO's. After all, less rank has never translated into less ability (far too many officers with degrees and sweet FA experience were much more problematic. This looks and sounds suspiciously like the start of a rank to me...).
I shall continue to delve and find out more. I plan to visit the AFCO, stepping over the BS as I go, and get to as many bases as poss to speak to those currently serving. I'm pretty sure that a 33 year old ex officer/lawyer will raise a few eyebrows, but hopefully no more. On a parting note, I should add that I do like the law (well, someone has to). Working in Govt is good work and pretty good money. Hell, it could fund an ATPL and give me time off and a guaranteed job to come back to. I've just reached a stage where I realise that if I want to fly, I need to get 'my
in one sock', as the infantry saying goes.
Best wishes to all
Argo.
Many thanks for your comments and thougts. I appreciate the efforts of those who wrote in and gave their '2 pennies' worth.
I do admit that I'm not too bothered by negative comments as those in the service are legitimately entitled to gripe. I have not discounted the NCA route, much less the ATPL route. That being said, my preferences were always bent towards the military. It's only because going dowe to OASC to do the RAF/RN/GAPAN tests that I re-looked at the mil route. When I was considering Pilot all those years ago, the AEOp was always my second choice.
The fact that aircrew is non-commissioned bothers me none. I made as many NCO friends in the Army as Officer. To me, the difference came down to experience, as I always took the view that any half decent leader would consult (using the good ol' fashioned 'lets have a quick chin wag on this one' route) his/her NCO's. After all, less rank has never translated into less ability (far too many officers with degrees and sweet FA experience were much more problematic. This looks and sounds suspiciously like the start of a rank to me...).
I shall continue to delve and find out more. I plan to visit the AFCO, stepping over the BS as I go, and get to as many bases as poss to speak to those currently serving. I'm pretty sure that a 33 year old ex officer/lawyer will raise a few eyebrows, but hopefully no more. On a parting note, I should add that I do like the law (well, someone has to). Working in Govt is good work and pretty good money. Hell, it could fund an ATPL and give me time off and a guaranteed job to come back to. I've just reached a stage where I realise that if I want to fly, I need to get 'my
in one sock', as the infantry saying goes.Best wishes to all
Argo.
Don't even think about it, there's no choice, ATPL has to be the way to go. There's no need for reasoning or discussion on this topic because there's no choice to make.
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Argo,
I believe the ADF are taking people older than you for basic pilot etc training, besides, the weather is warmer over here!!
Have a look at
http://www.defencejobs.gov.au
Well, the web sites pretty anyway.....
I believe the ADF are taking people older than you for basic pilot etc training, besides, the weather is warmer over here!!
Have a look at
http://www.defencejobs.gov.au
Well, the web sites pretty anyway.....
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Argo,
If it ' floats your boat' then as Nike says, 'just do it'!!, or are you just using this life as a dress rehearsal? Head Vs Heart?, don't get to your rocking chair thinking if only......
Load Moving..............
If it ' floats your boat' then as Nike says, 'just do it'!!, or are you just using this life as a dress rehearsal? Head Vs Heart?, don't get to your rocking chair thinking if only......
Load Moving..............
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Argo
If you are as keen as you say then I can arrange a trip to sunny Kinloss and possibly a flight on a Nimrod. ( The simulator at least).This may help in your decision making process. Simply indicate your interest in your next mail and I will forward a contact address.
If not then good luck in your final 'choice'.
Having worked in the Aeop world for a reasonable time I can only say that, as in every profession, there are problems leading to unhappy people. Personally I continue to serve feeling that so far, the good outweighs the bad.
If you are as keen as you say then I can arrange a trip to sunny Kinloss and possibly a flight on a Nimrod. ( The simulator at least).This may help in your decision making process. Simply indicate your interest in your next mail and I will forward a contact address.
If not then good luck in your final 'choice'.
Having worked in the Aeop world for a reasonable time I can only say that, as in every profession, there are problems leading to unhappy people. Personally I continue to serve feeling that so far, the good outweighs the bad.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Go for it.
I dont have current Nimrod or E3 experience nor as an AEOp but I do have experience. A good AEOp as opposed to a 'knocker' is worth his weight in gold.
The dry sensor operators can talk MHz and ARP and know what is going on without all that radar cr*p. But you need to know what the enemy kit does to work out how the enemy is using it. AEOp can be a good route to intelligence and also to a commission.
The only catch is the lack of direct recruiting to AEO. Look at some AEOps like Brian MacLaren (sorry chaps) Sgt to Gp Capt.
I dont have current Nimrod or E3 experience nor as an AEOp but I do have experience. A good AEOp as opposed to a 'knocker' is worth his weight in gold.
The dry sensor operators can talk MHz and ARP and know what is going on without all that radar cr*p. But you need to know what the enemy kit does to work out how the enemy is using it. AEOp can be a good route to intelligence and also to a commission.
The only catch is the lack of direct recruiting to AEO. Look at some AEOps like Brian MacLaren (sorry chaps) Sgt to Gp Capt.
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Argo, I fear that late entry into the military, coupled with the present conditions in the Forces, and having once been commissioned, and having high status and qualifications as a specialist professional, will likely lead to you becoming increasingly frustrated. You will be treated very much as a new boy, also being led(?) by very young officers who will keep you at arms length because they don't know how to handle you, your previous experience or your age.
I remember an AEO from the Nimrod fleet (AEOp, got a commission) who in his mid thirties went for an ATPL. He's been commercial flying for 6 or 7 years now, and when I saw him recently he was wearing a permanent grin. He loves it - head and shoulders above what he was doing in the military.
After a lifetime career as a mil pilot, my advice to you is that, in view of your circumstances, I would go commercial.
FJJP
I remember an AEO from the Nimrod fleet (AEOp, got a commission) who in his mid thirties went for an ATPL. He's been commercial flying for 6 or 7 years now, and when I saw him recently he was wearing a permanent grin. He loves it - head and shoulders above what he was doing in the military.
After a lifetime career as a mil pilot, my advice to you is that, in view of your circumstances, I would go commercial.
FJJP
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Mucho gracias
Dear Fellow PPRuNe'ers
Just a short note by way of thank you to all those who took the time to read and respond to my question. I greatly appreciate the advice and insights offered, particularly those (who shall remain nameless - their good deeds consigned to the unwrritten chapter of history) who PM'd me.
Many thanks. Suffice to say, I shall get matters rolling and, as the saying goes, 'take it as far as it can go', before making any decisions. For those who advocated the ATPL route, it has not been discounted. I'm running with both in tandem.
Best wishes to you all.
Regards
Argo
Just a short note by way of thank you to all those who took the time to read and respond to my question. I greatly appreciate the advice and insights offered, particularly those (who shall remain nameless - their good deeds consigned to the unwrritten chapter of history) who PM'd me.
Many thanks. Suffice to say, I shall get matters rolling and, as the saying goes, 'take it as far as it can go', before making any decisions. For those who advocated the ATPL route, it has not been discounted. I'm running with both in tandem.
Best wishes to you all.
Regards
Argo
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NCA COMMISSIONING?
I applaud your giving consideration to such a serious change of direction. I can't speak from the NCA perspective, but you mentioned the potential for commissioning from NCA.
My experience as a flight commander and writer of many annual reports is that it is far easier to get commissioned from civvie st than it is from within the Service.
I have always considered the selection process at OASC to be as fair as possible given the limited time they have available to look at someone. Notwithstanding the efforts that go into finding out all about every applicant, it is clear that those arriving with the baggage of a few yr's worth of reports, often written by people who have no idea whatsoever what they are doing, are at a definite disadvantage.
I think it is too late for you to be commissioned as a direct entrant, so going the NCA route may be the only option for you, but I don't think it will be easy.
Whatever you decide, Good Luck!
My experience as a flight commander and writer of many annual reports is that it is far easier to get commissioned from civvie st than it is from within the Service.
I have always considered the selection process at OASC to be as fair as possible given the limited time they have available to look at someone. Notwithstanding the efforts that go into finding out all about every applicant, it is clear that those arriving with the baggage of a few yr's worth of reports, often written by people who have no idea whatsoever what they are doing, are at a definite disadvantage.
I think it is too late for you to be commissioned as a direct entrant, so going the NCA route may be the only option for you, but I don't think it will be easy.
Whatever you decide, Good Luck!