V Force fatalities
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The fatal accident on 7/10/64 was captained by Wg Cdr Baker who was OC 9 Sqn (not 12 as stated). He took our aircraft as his had gone u/s as I recall.
XM601 Vulcan B2 9 Sqn RAF Coningsby
The squadron commander who was not particularly experienced on the Vulcan having come from a Valiant unit, was carrying out a check on a co-pilot who was handling pilot for the majority of the sortie. The captain advised that the aircraft would make an asymmetric approach for a roller and all appeared normal until the aircraft crossed the threshold. Power was applied and the aircraft was seen to bank to starboard and turn sharply away from the runway and when it was about 300 yards up the runway and some 175 yards to the right of the runway centreline, the starboard wing tip struck the ground and the aircraft broke up and caught fire. The two pilots attempted ejection but were unsuccessful because the angle at which the seats left the aircraft but the three men in the rear had no opportunity to abandon the aircraft at the height involved. The cause of the crash was a loss of control during the overshoot but the captain failed to take control from the co-pilot, who was relatively inexperienced.
Wg Cdr Kenneth John Lewis Baker 39 Captain (OC 12 Sqn) as already stated this should read 9 Sqn and according to the Armed Forces Roll of Honour A/Wg Cdr
Fg Off Paul Elliot Busfiled 23 Co-Pilot
Flt Lt Charles Vernon Burkard 23 Nav(Radar)
Flt Lt Geoffrey Bingham 34 Nav (Plotter)
Fg Off Alan Hubert Jones21 AEO
The squadron commander who was not particularly experienced on the Vulcan having come from a Valiant unit, was carrying out a check on a co-pilot who was handling pilot for the majority of the sortie. The captain advised that the aircraft would make an asymmetric approach for a roller and all appeared normal until the aircraft crossed the threshold. Power was applied and the aircraft was seen to bank to starboard and turn sharply away from the runway and when it was about 300 yards up the runway and some 175 yards to the right of the runway centreline, the starboard wing tip struck the ground and the aircraft broke up and caught fire. The two pilots attempted ejection but were unsuccessful because the angle at which the seats left the aircraft but the three men in the rear had no opportunity to abandon the aircraft at the height involved. The cause of the crash was a loss of control during the overshoot but the captain failed to take control from the co-pilot, who was relatively inexperienced.
Wg Cdr Kenneth John Lewis Baker 39 Captain (OC 12 Sqn) as already stated this should read 9 Sqn and according to the Armed Forces Roll of Honour A/Wg Cdr
Fg Off Paul Elliot Busfiled 23 Co-Pilot
Flt Lt Charles Vernon Burkard 23 Nav(Radar)
Flt Lt Geoffrey Bingham 34 Nav (Plotter)
Fg Off Alan Hubert Jones21 AEO
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Coninsgby Wing moved in toto to Cottesmore around that time. I think initially it had been planned as a Bolthole (not a term at the time) but the planned changed to a permanent move around August.
We had planned to go to the Far East around 24 Sep but instead deployed on the 9th. The Station Commander deployed as the task force commander but returned to UK around the 13th or 14th as he had a pressing engagement - the Summer Ball and to move the Wing.
It is unlikely that the whole wing moved in the space of a few days and Wg Cdr Baker may well have been on the posted strength of Cottesmore but still flying from Coningsby.
The aircraft had the more powerful 301 engines and possibly had take-off power selected. Take-off power could deliver up to 104% static thrust. If the throttles for all engines were advanced together the live engines would produce maximum power around 30 seconds ahead (IIRC) the idling engines. The relatively small rudder did not have enough authority to overcome the asymetric forces. A similar instance had occurred when Ron Dick, a highly experienced pilot, was put in the same situation. He said he had never seen the horizon move across the windscreen so rapidly. His recovery which was counter-intuitive was to throttle back all 4 engines and then advance the power on all 4.
Ramshorn, you're right but they were actually November 4's original dates. Jackson also shows 781 at May not Apr. I was at Akrotiri in Apr and had left by the time 781 went in so it must be May. Now corrected.
We had planned to go to the Far East around 24 Sep but instead deployed on the 9th. The Station Commander deployed as the task force commander but returned to UK around the 13th or 14th as he had a pressing engagement - the Summer Ball and to move the Wing.
It is unlikely that the whole wing moved in the space of a few days and Wg Cdr Baker may well have been on the posted strength of Cottesmore but still flying from Coningsby.
an asymmetric approach for a roller and all appeared normal until the aircraft crossed the threshold. Power was applied and the aircraft was seen to bank to starboard and turn sharply away from the runway
Ramshorn, you're right but they were actually November 4's original dates. Jackson also shows 781 at May not Apr. I was at Akrotiri in Apr and had left by the time 781 went in so it must be May. Now corrected.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Think of the Nimrod too, around 46 or so were ordered and at least 5 crashed or were Cat 5 - ove 10%.
Does XH669 count as a loss? IIRC it had to land at Waddington due to a major electrical problem. Due to the cost of repair and the approaching end of the Victor's service life, it was not considered cost-effective to carry out repairs and the aircraft was subsequently declared Cat-5 and scrapped in-situ.
Wasn't XH671 in the ground display line-up for the RAF 75 celebrations - and wasn't that after the mishap with the door seals?
Wasn't XH671 in the ground display line-up for the RAF 75 celebrations - and wasn't that after the mishap with the door seals?
Last edited by 4mastacker; 25th Jan 2012 at 11:26.
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Quite so P-N. I never much relished the thought of stooging around at low level without an ejector seat, so was quite happy with my posting to tankers after Lindholme.
The Vulcan accident you describe bears a remarkable similarity to the loss of Victor SR2 XL 230 on 10 May 73. I could never understand the point of practising rollers after an assymetric approach and landing and was very pleased when they were banned soon after these incidents. Two crews lost needlessly IMOH.
The Vulcan accident you describe bears a remarkable similarity to the loss of Victor SR2 XL 230 on 10 May 73. I could never understand the point of practising rollers after an assymetric approach and landing and was very pleased when they were banned soon after these incidents. Two crews lost needlessly IMOH.
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PN - The accident to XM 576 at Scampton in May 1965 was another example of a roller from an asymmetric approach causing unexpectedly severe yaw. In this case the port wing tip touched the ground, the a/c slewed to port, the port u/c collapsed and the a/c came to rest in the Air Traffic Control car park.
A number of cars were demolished and one (a Mini Minor) even went missing. It was later found crushed in the Stbd u/c bay.
November 4 - Your quote concerning the Coningsby accident contains a minor error that may be worth mentioning.
Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad
A number of cars were demolished and one (a Mini Minor) even went missing. It was later found crushed in the Stbd u/c bay.
November 4 - Your quote concerning the Coningsby accident contains a minor error that may be worth mentioning.
Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ron, there was another accident at Cottesmore with my skipper. We knew nothing of it until the following morning when we overheard the words "runway marker board" and "hit".
We interrogated the driver who 'fessed up. We were relieved to find that it was while he was flying as IRE with another crew. The copilot was doing a roller at night and had clipped a marker board with the port wing.
Now we know where the boards are sited, we know how high they are, and the impact was 10 feet in from the tip. figure how close that was to the ground!
I am pleased to say the copilot was employed elsewhere after that tour.
We interrogated the driver who 'fessed up. We were relieved to find that it was while he was flying as IRE with another crew. The copilot was doing a roller at night and had clipped a marker board with the port wing.
Now we know where the boards are sited, we know how high they are, and the impact was 10 feet in from the tip. figure how close that was to the ground!
I am pleased to say the copilot was employed elsewhere after that tour.
PN - to go back to your question about approaching hot wheels - in my previous incarnation in AFRS we were taught to approach from a 45 deg offset in order to avoid both the fore/aft risk of the tyre exploding and the lateral risk of the hub flying off.
OH
OH
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OH, was that approach arrived at by logic or hard learnt experience? Reflecting on some of the crashes which have occurred at air displays:
The Victor, the Vulcan, the Nimrod, the F4, that B52. I believe each was a one-off for that type but too many altogether.
The Victor, the Vulcan, the Nimrod, the F4, that B52. I believe each was a one-off for that type but too many altogether.
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Siseman - Was that the one when Eric Fell was the QFI
Later on Eric's daughter married my best mate. And they are still together and attended my 3rd wedding in Vegas in 2007.
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November 4 - Your quote concerning the Coningsby accident contains a minor error that may be worth mentioning.
Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad
Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad
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Looking at this site UK Serials I see 25 Victor 2were cancelled.
Part of the aerospace industry rationalisation and a slap on the wrist for Sir Fred.
Part of the aerospace industry rationalisation and a slap on the wrist for Sir Fred.
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Anyone know which squadrons were flying the aircraft involved in the crash of XJ781 in Iran in May 73 and the crash of XL 385 at Scampton in Apr 67? I have the Wings but not the individual Sqns.
Thanks....
W
Thanks....
W
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Iran was IX Sqn, look at my post above.
As Ron points out below, the aircraft at this time were allocated to wings. In the case of 781 it was Akrotiri Bomber Wing but as you asked, it was IX flying it.
Also, pedantically, 385 did not crash as it failed to take-off and didn't even hit the runway.
As Ron points out below, the aircraft at this time were allocated to wings. In the case of 781 it was Akrotiri Bomber Wing but as you asked, it was IX flying it.
Also, pedantically, 385 did not crash as it failed to take-off and didn't even hit the runway.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 1st Feb 2012 at 17:36.
November 4,
I can confirm that Burkard was an AEO and Cummings is wrong. The Nav Radar was Jones.
I contacted Cummings today and gave him a jolly good slap - he has promised to take more care in future!
He does however plead that the RAF had about 9400 aircraft written off through accident and occasional enemy action since VE-Day and these included something like 6500 fatal casualties. All these have been covered in his series of books. The inevitable incorrect designation he suggests is regretable but probably inevitable.
O-D
I can confirm that Burkard was an AEO and Cummings is wrong. The Nav Radar was Jones.
I contacted Cummings today and gave him a jolly good slap - he has promised to take more care in future!
He does however plead that the RAF had about 9400 aircraft written off through accident and occasional enemy action since VE-Day and these included something like 6500 fatal casualties. All these have been covered in his series of books. The inevitable incorrect designation he suggests is regretable but probably inevitable.
O-D
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Thanks O-D
I appreciate that errors and omissions do occur. Maybe time for an addendum to be added or like Chorley's Bomber Command Losses which has a website with updates and corrections.
I appreciate that errors and omissions do occur. Maybe time for an addendum to be added or like Chorley's Bomber Command Losses which has a website with updates and corrections.
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Wensleydale:
XL 385 was part of Scampton 'Wing' and, as such, was not allocated to any particular Sqn. But at the time, the aircraft was in the hands of a 617 Sqn crew (Bill Taylor's, I think). So, if you want to associate the demise of 385 to a particular squadron, then it has to be 617.
There was an ATC cadet on board when this dramatic and potentially life threatening incident occured. He must have wondered if he was aspiring to the right profession
XL 385 was part of Scampton 'Wing' and, as such, was not allocated to any particular Sqn. But at the time, the aircraft was in the hands of a 617 Sqn crew (Bill Taylor's, I think). So, if you want to associate the demise of 385 to a particular squadron, then it has to be 617.
There was an ATC cadet on board when this dramatic and potentially life threatening incident occured. He must have wondered if he was aspiring to the right profession