PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Military Aviation (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation-57/)
-   -   V Force fatalities (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/475000-v-force-fatalities.html)

Tankertrashnav 22nd Jan 2012 16:59

V Force fatalities
 
With the upcoming V-Force Reunion on 28th/29th April there is a surge in interest in the history of these aircraft. I have been asked if there is any way to ascertain the total number of lives lost over the history of the three V bombers, including their subsequent reconnaissance and tanker versions. Asking around, lots of people can come up with well-known accidents, but is there an easily accessible source which lists all the major accidents involving fatalities?

Unfortunately, because of the lack of ejector seats for the rear crew a high proportion of accidents did involve fatalities, but so far I can only guess at the total lives lost. Can anyone help?

Mods please feel free to move this to Aviation History and Nostalgia if you think it belongs there

Pontius Navigator 22nd Jan 2012 17:22

Jaclson, Avro Vulcan, 1984, in his appendix lists the disposal details for the Vulcan. There is no summary, you would need to trawl through it viz:

VX770 - crew killed (no number)
XA891 - crew unhurt
XA897 - 3 crew plus 1 pax killed
XA908 - crew killed (no number)
XA909 - crew unhurt
XH477 - crew killed
XH497 - rear crew bailed out - nose u/c down but nosewheel fell off
XH535 - 4 rear crew killed
XH536 - 5 killed
XJ781 - crew unhurt
XL390 - crew killed (IIRC plotter was not on board)
XM576 - crew unhurt
XM600 - one hurt rest unhurt
XM601 - crew killed
XM604 - 4 killed
XM610 - 2 hurt rest unhurt
XM645 - 5 killed pilots survived

Hipper 22nd Jan 2012 17:51

For Valiants, Morgan's 'Vickers Valiant' has a six page summary of the histories of all the aircraft and these mention fatalities.

For Victors, Roger Brooks 'The Handley Page Victor' has a chapter in Vol 2 on accidents which mentions deaths. This is around 50 pages though.

In 'Vulcan Test Pilot' by Tony Blackman, he devotes a chapter to Vulcan accidents and mentions fatalities.

Fareastdriver 22nd Jan 2012 17:59

The subject of rear crew ejector seats came up about four years ago. I posted a comment then that no one in particular disagreed with so I will post it again before the arguments start about how many died because they were not provided.


When the V bombers were first designed rear crew escape by ejector seats was not even considered. The Victor was conceived with a jettisonable cockpit, the Vulcan with a seat for the one pilot, the Sperrin with one seat between the two pilots and the Valiant, the last of the design phases, a seat for each pilot.

The designs for the V bombers were the first time that the British aircraft industry had to design military aircraft for prolonged operation above 30,000 ft and the Comet disasters proved how much they knew about it. When the V force cockpits were stressed to 8.5 lbs/in pressure differential that was almost a step into the unknown. It follows that any alteration like cutting extra exit holes for the rear crew was structurally impossible. The only way you could do it was to have a small hole with enough room for ONE seat to exit. This was done with a Valiant as a one off in the early sixties. This proved it was possible to eject from the cabin of a Valiant though I believe the primary research was to study the effects of rear facing ejection.

To have any chance at all you would have to sequence the ejection. You could not eject simultaneously as the seats would all meet at a point above the cockpit. All those who fly with a rocket seat attached to their backsides would think that is easy. Not with a Mark 3A Ejector seat that was necessary to clear the tail of a V bomber. That had a three cartridge, eight foot telescopic gun that ensured the occupant left the end at 80 ft/sec. With a seat like that you have to be fully prepared to eject. Should you not be fully prepared you would be crippled, if unprepared, fatally crippled.

Three scenarios were considered.

Inclined ejector guns for the outer crew members. This would involve them accelerating from Zero to 80ft/sec eight feet vertically and three feet laterally. The sideways forces would be more than sufficient to break their necks.

Tilted Ejector seats. This would require the seat to flop from the vertical to about 25 degrees to aim at the hole in the roof. Put you hand against a convenient object, tilt you seat to twenty-five degrees laterally and consider whether you are in a suitable body configuration to be punched out through the ceiling at 80 ft/sec. No, I thought not.

Shuffle Ejection. The centre occupant would eject and then one of the others would move his seat to the centre position, eject and so on. What do you do with the first ejectee’s gun which is still going to be in the way? What happens if the primary ejectee is killed or wounded? It’s a combat aircraft, remember.

I never knew of a rear crew member who complained about it in a serious way. The history of multiple abandonment of V aircraft suggest that in the time available in most cases only one or two would have survived, ejection seats or not.

It never worried me. As a co-pilot I was required to eject first so as to tell the Board of Inquiry what went wrong.

Green Flash 22nd Jan 2012 18:13

I presume, given the nature of the V Force, that there were no foriegn exchange postings? At a pinch, I could imagine there might have been someone from SAC and if so did anyone go to Barksdale/Minot/wherever for some BUF action? Or maybe an ANZAC?

Yellow Sun 22nd Jan 2012 18:33


there were no foriegn exchange postings?
There was a USAF Major (pilot) as CGI on the Vulcan OCU in the late 60s - early 70s, but whether the post was continuous and when it ceased I do not know.

YS

Pontius Navigator 22nd Jan 2012 18:49

YS, you may be correct however as with BCBS and Group, they were non-operational ie the Chief GROUND Instructor. When I was at Finningley it was Polly Pollington who volunteered for posts that others did not want but which necessitated commissioning or promotion. It stood him well, sgt pilot to Vulcan sqn cdr.

John Farley 22nd Jan 2012 19:13

The full gen
 
You want to get a copy of Category Five by Colin Cummings, Nimbus Pulishing ISBN 978-0-9526619-7-9 as it lists all RAF losses 1954-2009 with names of crew
and with a good index by aircraft type.

Lordflasheart 22nd Jan 2012 19:59

Wolverhampton Aviation Group database
 
TTN -

The Wolverhampton Aviation Group's excellent website includes a very comprehensive database of UK Military Aircraft Losses separately for each year between 1952 and 2011 – chronologically with brief details of each prang, which in general seems to include the number of fatalities - but without names.

UK Military Aircraft Losses

This is supported by a shy table named "Drone losses and x-ref by type and serial" which lists losses for each type - by serial and date. One would have to manually take the type/date/serial back to the annual list for the further details provided.

For starters - I added up the losses as -
Valiant - Ten, between May 56 and June 64.
Vulcan - Twenty-two, between Oct 56 and Nov 81
Victor – Seventeen, between Aug 59 and March 93.

HTH. LFH

Pontius Navigator 22nd Jan 2012 20:22

M'lud, that is less than half the number on the Vulcan that I listed.

Trim Stab 22nd Jan 2012 20:44

You could try looking through the "losses" page of the following website:

UK Serials

Tankertrashnav 22nd Jan 2012 20:49

Thanks for the help so far chaps, looks like I'm in for a bit of cross-checking and adding up.

Those figures surprise me, Lord Flasheart, that's a lot of aircraft.

P-N - maybe some confusion maybe? I'm assuming L-F's figures refer to aircraft losses, not crew casualties.

Pontius Navigator 22nd Jan 2012 21:23

TTN, could be though I listed 17 which were crashes as opposed to one's like the runway fire at Scampton or the undercarriage collapse at Finningley. I considered these to be in a different category to the crash landing of XJ781 in Iran.

I omitted XH561 that damaged its undercarriage at Finingley as I did not know if that was an actual crash. There was one, I can't remember more details that did an unintentional wheels up landing. The aircraft went into ground effect and suffered hardly any damage.

There was another, XM600, we flew her to St Athan for the first Major at St Athan. On take-off on return her undercarriage door shut then the main wheel retracted with predictable consequences. As the aircraft landed at Cottesmore it was declared a Bomber Command accident rather than a Maintenance Command one.

Lordflasheart 22nd Jan 2012 22:03

Oooooh yes - it was airframe losses from Her Maj's slop-chit (light-blue inventory) pov, that I was quoting. Fortunately not all of them involved fatalities. Sorry not to have made that clear. I didn't have much time for my post as I was trying to submit my tax return in the real world. As TTN observes, there's a lot of adding up to do. I think the final total will be another long depressing list, especially if names can be added. It all seemed quite fun at the time - didn't it ? Perhaps the final conclusions can be posted here please, as a respectful reminder ? LFH

sisemen 22nd Jan 2012 23:58

I've asked this before in these august pages - but does anyone have a copy of the BOI or pics of the Finningley wheels up on the pan? I was a witness to that one and, as far as I remember, it was a faulty 28vDC microswitch that was the cause.

Barksdale Boy 23rd Jan 2012 02:34

Exchange postings
 
In my Vulcan time (67-73 and 78-82) there were no exchange postings on the squadrons. There were, however, plenty of people who were Australians or New Zealanders, but all were members of the Royal Air Force, most of them naturalised Brits.

There was during my time always a USAF major as Chief Ground Instructor on 230 OCU. In 1967 it was Sam McClure, in 1970 Bill Heckendorm, in 1978 a major Goranewsky and, in 1979 to the end, the amazing John Harrington, with whom and with Bill Dart I once shared a snow hole for a night on Cairngorm.

I know that PN has in the past alluded to a USAF exchange officer at BCBS, but I do not recall that.

spectre150 23rd Jan 2012 03:09

Sisemen

My father was one of the navs in the Vulcan that suffered the u/c collapse at Finningley and he has a couple of good photographs taken, presumably by an official photographer, shortly after it happened. Unfortunately I live abroad and do not have access to them but I could ask him to dig them out for me on my next trip home. I cant help with the BOI I am afraid.

November4 23rd Jan 2012 13:37

According to Colin Cummings in his book Category Five, there were 10 Valiants, 16 Victors and 20 Vulcans lost:

Valiant

WP222 29/07/1955
Sqn Ldr RE Chalk, Flt Lt A Allen, Fg Off T Corkin, Plt Off A Lyons

WP202 11/05/1956
Sqn Ldr K Orman, Flt Lt E Evans, Mr A Knight (Co ejected and survived)

WZ398 13/09/1957
Fire on ground

XD869 11/09/1959
Flt Lt T Watkins, Fg Off P Wormall, Flt Lt D Howard, Flt Lt M Hyslop, Fg Off C Candy, CT R Sewell

Valiant XD864 12/08/1960
Flt Lt B Wickham, Flt Lt W Howard, Flt Lt H Bullen, Flt Lt A Ireson, Sgt R Johnson

WP200 14/03/1961
Take off abandoned and ran through a metal fence AEO and Nav seriously injured.

WZ399 03/11/1961
Take off abandoned and overshot airfield onto a railway track. Crew survived.

WZ363 06/05/1964
Flt Lt F Welles. Flt LT G Mills, Flt Lt J Stringer, Flt Lt L Hawkins, Sgt R Noble

WZ396 23/05/1964
Landed on foam carpet when undercarriage stuck. No casualties reported.

WP217 06/08/1964
Lower part of rear spar fractured - not repaired

Victor

WB771 14/07/1954
Sqn Ldr Ecclestone DFC, Mr I Bennett, Mr B Heithersay, Mr A Cook

XH668 20/08/1959
Sqn Ldr R Morgan, Sqn Ldr G Stockman, Flt Lt L Williams, Flt Lt R Hannaford, Mr R Williams

XH617 19/07/1960
Fg Off M Wilkes, Flt Lt J Wilding, Flt Lt R Bristow (Pilot Flt Lt J Mudford, AEO Fg Off G Stewart survived)

XL159 23/03/1962
Mr M Evans, Mr P Elwood (Pilots Mr P Murphy and Mr J Tank ejected, AEO FLt Lt J Waterton baled out) 2 Civilians on the ground killed Mrs A Gibson, Miss C Gibson

XH613 14/06/1962
Wg Cdr J Matthews, Fg Off W Lowther, Flt Lt G Spencer, Flt Lt B Stubbs, Flt Lt Ansted all abandoned aircraft and survived

XA929 16/06/1962
Flt Lt G Goatham, Flt Lt D Brown, Flt Lt J Gray, Fg Off A Mitchell, Fg Off A Pace, MTech D Smith (Fg Off Brown ejected but killed as outside of design limits for the seat)

XA934 02/10/1962
Aircraft abandoned but Flt Lt N Cooke, Plt Off J Cottridge, Fg Off D Haynes killed (Co Flt Lt E Gwinnel survived)

XM714 20/03/1963
Flt Lt A Galbraith, Flt Lt E Vernon, Flt Lt J churchill, Fg Off T Sandford, MNav A Stringer (Co ejected)

XM716 29/06/1966
Sqn Ldr J Holland, Fg Off H walsh, Flt Lt R Norman, Flt Lt K Smith

XH646 19/08/1968
Sqn Ldr M Doyle, Flt Lt W Galliene, Flt Lt K Peacock, Flt Lt R Morton

XL230 10/05/1973
Flt Lt S Stevenson, Flt Lt J Philips, Flt Lt K Quinney, Sqn Ldr J Musson, Flt Lt R Swain, Flt Lt J Gibbs

XH618 25/03/1975
Flt Lt D Crowther, Flt P Slatter, Fg Off T Evans, Fg Off J Price (PilotFlt Lt K Handscomb ejected)

XL513 28/09/1976
Crashed into overshoot after birdstrike on take off

XL232 15/10/1982
Engine explosion on take off. No injuries

XL191 19/06/1986
Crashed into undershoot during approach - "breakdown in crew cooperation"

XH671 15/03/1993
Cabin door seals damaged in pressure test - not repaired

Any errors are down to my poor typing skills

November4 23rd Jan 2012 13:44

Vulcan

XA897 01/10/1956
Sqn Ldr J Stroud, Sqn Ldr Eames AFC, Sqn Ldr A Gamble, Mr F Basset (ACM Sir H Broadhurst and Sqn Ldt D Howard survived)

VX770 20/09/1958
Mr K Sturt, Mr R Ford, Mr W Howkins, Flt Lt R Parrott

XA908 24/10/1958
Flt Lt J Willoughby-Moore, Flt Lt B Peacock, Sqn Ldr H Scull, Flt Lt J Watson, Fg Off A Baker, CT E Evison

XA904 01/03/1961
Landed on grass and undercarriage collapsed

XH477 12/06/1963
Flt Lt D Blackmore. Fg D Faulke, Flt Lt Roper, Flt Lt J Ross, Flt Lt J Chapman

XH535 11/05/1964
Flt Lt J Dingly, Flt Lt F Young, Flt Lt Chilton, MSig Christian AFM (Pilots ejected and survived Co Flt Lt R Beeson)

XA909 16/07/1964
Rear crew abandoned at 3000 feet then pilots ejected.

XM601 07/10/1964
Wg Cdr K Baker (OC 12 Sqn) Fg Off P Busfield, Flt Lt C Burkard, Flt Lt G BinghamFg Off A Jones

XM576 25/05/1965
Loss of control on landing, minor injuries including an NCO on the ground.

XH536 11/02/1966
Flt Lt J MacDonald, Fg Off G Sutcliffe, Flt Lt B Waring, Flt Lt R Clare, Flt Lt G Fuller

XH556 18/04/1966
Undercarriage collapsed

XL385 06/04/1967
Engine fire - no casualties

XM604 30/01/1968
Flt Lt A Bennett, Flt Lt S Sumpter, Flt Lt B Goodman, Fg Off M Whelan (Pilots ejected believing rear crew to be out Flt Lt P Tait, Fg Off M Gillette)

XM610 08/01/1971
Caught fire in the air - crew abandoned and survived, Pilot FLt Lt G Alcock awarded AFC

XL384 12/08/1971
Heavy landing

XJ781 23/04/1973
Undercarriage failed to lower, belly landing

XM645 14/10/1975
Sqn Ldr D Beeden, Flt Lt E Lambert, Flt Lt G Pulman, CT T Barrow, Sgt J Atkins. Mrs V Zammit killed by falling wreckage. Pilots ejected Flt Lt G Alcock AFC (see XH646), Flt Lt E Alexander

XM600 17/01/1977
Abandoned following serious engine fire - Pilots Flt Lt R Aspinall, Flt A Ryder and 3 rear crew escaped safely

XL390 11/08/1978
Flt Lt C Edwards, Flt Lt S Farlow, Flt J Hamilton, Flt Lt N Thomas

XL361 13/11/1981
Damaged beyond repair


Any errors are down to my poor typing skills

Tankertrashnav 23rd Jan 2012 13:58

November 4 - Thank you much for that - that must have taken quite a while. No criticism of your typnig skills either ;)

We intend putting the list on the V-Force Reunion website as a tribute to those who wont be there on the day so everyone's help is much appreciated. Also if anyone is aware of any that have slipped through the normal sources I would appreciate it if you would let me know.


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:30.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.