PVRs started.....
All seems relatively simple to me,
No flying pay = no fly.
Upping the PVR times is a panic response to loss of pilots. A pilot removes himself from flying duties will have the same effect as one who walks. Do you expect a senior guy to pitch up take all the responsibility, accountability and hassles that gob with his job when you cut his pay to that of OC catering? (No disrespect to all the OC Chips out there!)
The 6 months on no FP was draconian but manageable if you thought that you only actually had do a few months before resettlement. A year or 18 months held in employment against you will on a 20% pay cut? Thats the biggest shafting I've heard of in a long time. Much nastiness around the corner I reckon.
Or you can always fail your fitness test.
No flying pay = no fly.
Upping the PVR times is a panic response to loss of pilots. A pilot removes himself from flying duties will have the same effect as one who walks. Do you expect a senior guy to pitch up take all the responsibility, accountability and hassles that gob with his job when you cut his pay to that of OC catering? (No disrespect to all the OC Chips out there!)
The 6 months on no FP was draconian but manageable if you thought that you only actually had do a few months before resettlement. A year or 18 months held in employment against you will on a 20% pay cut? Thats the biggest shafting I've heard of in a long time. Much nastiness around the corner I reckon.
Or you can always fail your fitness test.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
And 'disconnect' your telephone. No out-of-hours early calls. Maybe they try to tell you a programming delay - no probs, turn up on time and start the duty clock running.
I once made the mistake of answering my phone on a Friday afternoon about 1700 when my leave ended at midnight. Saturday morning, 0600, I was out at about 15 west.
I once made the mistake of answering my phone on a Friday afternoon about 1700 when my leave ended at midnight. Saturday morning, 0600, I was out at about 15 west.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: home: United Kingdom
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure what the issue is regarding Manning holding personnel to RoS obligations. That has - at least recently - been the case; that's part of the reason behind the RoS! I wouldn't be surprised if the MRA4 RoS remains valid!
Duncs
(There hasn't been a Nimrod thread for ages
)
Duncs
(There hasn't been a Nimrod thread for ages
)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arty, it seems simple to the rest of us as well.
No Flying = No Flying Pay.
That would save **** loads of money and resentment from the deskbound types. It might also concentrate the Pilots on Piloting and show just how overmanned that "trade" is.
No Flying = No Flying Pay.
That would save **** loads of money and resentment from the deskbound types. It might also concentrate the Pilots on Piloting and show just how overmanned that "trade" is.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whether on PVR, or approaching option or 'treading water', if necessary it is easy to screw with the heirarchy using all the tools already mentioned:
- make yourself unfit to fly
- fail fitness test, out in 12 months anyway with no effect on FP
- forget how to spell and staff work correctly. Just throw it away.
- turn off phone
- etc
Once loyalty has gone, it is very hard for them to extract value from you.
- make yourself unfit to fly
- fail fitness test, out in 12 months anyway with no effect on FP
- forget how to spell and staff work correctly. Just throw it away.
- turn off phone
- etc
Once loyalty has gone, it is very hard for them to extract value from you.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
airpolice, unless that is deviation you have missed the point.
I think Arty meant that is flying pay was stopped then flying should also stop, ie a two-way street.
I think Arty meant that is flying pay was stopped then flying should also stop, ie a two-way street.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontius, I fully agree.
The problem with supporting people taking "industrial inacation" as suggetsed by sidewayspeak is that some of the blunties don't think that aircrew should ever have been getting flying pay when not in a flying post.
I can see why some might want to quit on the basis that their T&Cs are being changed. It seem svery unfair if MOD can say you are no longer getting what you were getting, if the aircrew are unable to say the same.
The problem with supporting people taking "industrial inacation" as suggetsed by sidewayspeak is that some of the blunties don't think that aircrew should ever have been getting flying pay when not in a flying post.
I can see why some might want to quit on the basis that their T&Cs are being changed. It seem svery unfair if MOD can say you are no longer getting what you were getting, if the aircrew are unable to say the same.
"No bucks = no Buck Rogers!" - memorable quote from The Right Stuff which seems somewhat appropriate.
I was once told that, many years ago, the Luftwaffe suffered an aircrew 'work to rule' for some reason or other. All very gentlemanly, but the day started with the aircrew reading every single order book and manual which they'd had to sign for. The external check of the aeroplane would be utterly meticulous and no corners were cut - same with the pre-flight checks, start up etc. As a result, the flying programme was soon in chaos..... No-one had been 'unprofessional' or refused to carry out any duties - whatever they were complaining about was rapidly sorted out!
Be careful of this 'turn off the phone' idea though - unless you're on leave. We used to hold 3 hours readiness at times; actually this meant 61 minutes as if we'd had to hold 60 minutes, it would have been a much greater embuggerance for all. Most understood this, but we had an Air Eng who insisted that he wouldn't respond in 61 minutes. So he was told that either he did so - or he could spend his readiness periods in the Sgt's Mess rather than at home. Another was called one morning and told that there was an urgent operational need for another jet to be on state - to which he responded "In that case, I've just had a pint of beer".
I'm rambling (again), but the moral is that if the RAF expects willing, flexible behaviour from its aircrew, cutting their pay and forcing them to stay in because they've asked to leave (after so many trainees have been sacked prematurely) is hardly likely to achieve that.
I was once told that, many years ago, the Luftwaffe suffered an aircrew 'work to rule' for some reason or other. All very gentlemanly, but the day started with the aircrew reading every single order book and manual which they'd had to sign for. The external check of the aeroplane would be utterly meticulous and no corners were cut - same with the pre-flight checks, start up etc. As a result, the flying programme was soon in chaos..... No-one had been 'unprofessional' or refused to carry out any duties - whatever they were complaining about was rapidly sorted out!
Be careful of this 'turn off the phone' idea though - unless you're on leave. We used to hold 3 hours readiness at times; actually this meant 61 minutes as if we'd had to hold 60 minutes, it would have been a much greater embuggerance for all. Most understood this, but we had an Air Eng who insisted that he wouldn't respond in 61 minutes. So he was told that either he did so - or he could spend his readiness periods in the Sgt's Mess rather than at home. Another was called one morning and told that there was an urgent operational need for another jet to be on state - to which he responded "In that case, I've just had a pint of beer".
I'm rambling (again), but the moral is that if the RAF expects willing, flexible behaviour from its aircrew, cutting their pay and forcing them to stay in because they've asked to leave (after so many trainees have been sacked prematurely) is hardly likely to achieve that.
Airpolice, it's a tired old subject, but it's still better if people think of it as "aircrew" pay rather than specific "flying" pay. Someone might be in a desk job through no fault of their own and against their will, after all.
Anyway, the rule you mention is already in force. If posted to a non flying-related job, your flying pay freezes, and after 2 years it drops to 50%, then after 3 years it falls to zero.
That strikes me as unpleasant and unfair for someone posted against their will, but at least the main people struck by it will be people who stay away from flying (or flying related) jobs for more than one tour, which is exactly what the blunties seem to want.
Regarding PVRing, you can all take the moral high ground about "retention pay being removed when you're no longer being retained," but the aircrew world is rather unique in that specialist pay ends up as a rather high percentage of total pay. No matter whether it's an allowance or pensionable or not, I'm one of the people who can't afford to take a pay cut of several hundred pounds per month to leave.
Anyway, the rule you mention is already in force. If posted to a non flying-related job, your flying pay freezes, and after 2 years it drops to 50%, then after 3 years it falls to zero.
That strikes me as unpleasant and unfair for someone posted against their will, but at least the main people struck by it will be people who stay away from flying (or flying related) jobs for more than one tour, which is exactly what the blunties seem to want.
Regarding PVRing, you can all take the moral high ground about "retention pay being removed when you're no longer being retained," but the aircrew world is rather unique in that specialist pay ends up as a rather high percentage of total pay. No matter whether it's an allowance or pensionable or not, I'm one of the people who can't afford to take a pay cut of several hundred pounds per month to leave.
With regards to this whole retention pay guff:
If you are being kept in the service for a year or so against your will.........
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!
If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.
If you are being kept in the service for a year or so against your will.........
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!
If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it worth £500 to leave early?
If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.
There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.
If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.
There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All very gentlemanly, but the day started with the aircrew reading every single order book and manual which they'd had to sign for. The external check of the aeroplane would be utterly meticulous and no corners were cut - same with the pre-flight checks, start up etc.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, readiness is something else - part of the contract so to speak with accommodation on base available if you wish 
.
We used to hold that 2 hrs too with par time 2hrs to scramble being under the hour. On callout this chap living only 20 minutes away ambles in in flying suit confident that he will have been too late and they would go without his services. I was alert to his plans, intercepted him in the car park and drove him straight to the aircraft where I had already loaded his goon suit and parachute.
Up the steps, doors closed, and they were off in just 55 minutes - for 9 hours LOL.
As he was not working his passage, simply a waste of space with the execs ignoring all the signs.
.We used to hold that 2 hrs too with par time 2hrs to scramble being under the hour. On callout this chap living only 20 minutes away ambles in in flying suit confident that he will have been too late and they would go without his services. I was alert to his plans, intercepted him in the car park and drove him straight to the aircraft where I had already loaded his goon suit and parachute.
Up the steps, doors closed, and they were off in just 55 minutes
- for 9 hours LOL.As he was not working his passage, simply a waste of space with the execs ignoring all the signs.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question related to PVR:
On a 16/38 permanent commission, if you elect to leave at your 12 year point (I assume everyone has the right to do this?) , is that classified as a PVR/ET? If not, does this mean you can leave on 12 months notice (as you have to tell them by your 11 year point) with no loss of flying pay?
On a 16/38 permanent commission, if you elect to leave at your 12 year point (I assume everyone has the right to do this?) , is that classified as a PVR/ET? If not, does this mean you can leave on 12 months notice (as you have to tell them by your 11 year point) with no loss of flying pay?
Also, I thought the zero FP rule hits next April so you'll get 50% until then. I guess it just means making a decision sooner rather than later to suck up the least pain financially.
If posted to a non flying-related job, your flying pay freezes, and after 2 years it drops to 50%, then after 3 years it falls to zero.
Latest RAF IBN today details Project SIRIUS - the officers career stream. What does it mean?
Officers at Sqn Ldr and above will elligible for selection to the "Executive Stream" (ES) if they are to attend Advanced Staff College (ASC) from Sep 11. If they have attended ASC in the past and are 0-5yrs senior in rank they will automatically chop to the ES and if they have 5-9yrs they will be reviewed on a case by case basis. For the rest of the Sqn Ldr+ "has beens" they join the "Main Stream" (MS).
ES will get tours of 3years or less and MS will get 3years+ tours.
Officers at Sqn Ldr and above will elligible for selection to the "Executive Stream" (ES) if they are to attend Advanced Staff College (ASC) from Sep 11. If they have attended ASC in the past and are 0-5yrs senior in rank they will automatically chop to the ES and if they have 5-9yrs they will be reviewed on a case by case basis. For the rest of the Sqn Ldr+ "has beens" they join the "Main Stream" (MS).
ES will get tours of 3years or less and MS will get 3years+ tours.
I do believe the lunatics (ES?) have finally taken over the Asylum...
LJ
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without wanting to sound like a shop floor steward at British Leyland in the mid 70's, it is time we had proper representation from a Federation!
In the past our T&C, standard of living, rights, etc. for doing a unique job were gradually eroded, however in recent time we have been treated atrociously. The BAFF are trying and have had support in the past from MPs and Parties
Browse our articles relating to armed forces personnel | British Armed Forces Federation
they seem the obvious choice to stand up for us but it seems the Government & MOD refuse to recognise them, they would much rather take forever to create a worthless "covenant" promising jam tomorrow on their terms
If the public and media really value us and want to help, campaining for an Armed Forces Federation would be the best way of showing it
In the past our T&C, standard of living, rights, etc. for doing a unique job were gradually eroded, however in recent time we have been treated atrociously. The BAFF are trying and have had support in the past from MPs and Parties
Browse our articles relating to armed forces personnel | British Armed Forces Federation
they seem the obvious choice to stand up for us but it seems the Government & MOD refuse to recognise them, they would much rather take forever to create a worthless "covenant" promising jam tomorrow on their terms
If the public and media really value us and want to help, campaining for an Armed Forces Federation would be the best way of showing it
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Is it worth £500 to leave early?
If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.
There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.
If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.
There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are being kept in the service for a year or so against your will.........
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!
If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!
If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: preston
Age: 76
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN, in 1980 I knew one Officer who went one better.
When they told him he needed to be elected to get out he decided to enter the election as the Gay Lib candidate using his Sqn Ldr rank.
They let him out straight away.
He was arampant heterosexual, by the way.
When they told him he needed to be elected to get out he decided to enter the election as the Gay Lib candidate using his Sqn Ldr rank.
They let him out straight away.
He was arampant heterosexual, by the way.