Hey Cereb,

stop spending your didums down at the yorke. Didnt you just get about 120Grand in the bonus.(70Grand if you are an F/O.) Not bad. I dont think you can completely rubbish the pay here,especially if you come from 90% of the other countries that think the wage here is pretty good.

120 and 70 grand in which currency? Dirhams?

To everyone who writes positively about EK and is happy and satisfied with the the benefits there, especially the pensions fund, I really wish you would just come out and say (or at least send me a private message with an oath that I won't tell) how much money you have in your account after the number of years you've been there. I just would like to get a good idea of how much I could actually make, and get both sides of the story. All i see is the repetitive post of one or two persons that claim they have $75 000 after 7 years and others that say they're happy with their pension but won't say how much that is. I get it, it's a private matter, but for the sake of information. Please.
I can see how somebody that didn't invest their pension money in anything didn't have any significant return so therefore they're just sitting with their vested and contribution money in their account, but just how much does somebody that did the most they can with their pension fund have in their account after, let's say 5, 7, or 9 years, or any other number of years?

Oh and this is for the Delta pension post:

yes2% (DAL contribution; no pilot match required)none/9%Profit sharing


Info is off of airlinepilotcentral. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's a 100% accurate about my airline.

Did I miss that the majors are hiring???
 

For those comparing Emirates to Delta, NW, United, Continental etc.......did I miss somewhere that these companies are hiring or will be hiring anywhere in the near future? From what I hear in the states these companies will and are laying off employees. There is no projected growth at these companies. Many friends at these companies have been furloughed after 9/11 and now they are called back there and still sit at the bottom of a seniority list with no hope for upgrade in the next 10 years. They also worry they will be layed off in the fall. So what Emirates has to offer is job stability, a pay check, the potential for profit sharing, a quick upgrade on the best planes in the sky, and by the way they are HIRING. Good luck getting a job at a US company right now. As far as I know only Netjets is hiring but they have over 10,000 qualified applicants on file. I am not saying you should ever leave a major US airline for Emirates, but if you are at other carriers with the potential for furlough, no hope for upgrade, and pay cuts eminant then Emirates is a great option. As far as saving money run the numbers yourself. Make a budget, take into account all your expenses and see what you will save. Make sure to put in an "other" category on the budget that has some extra money for unforeseen things. Also until you make captain at EK I suggest no American Schools for your kids and no maid. By cutting those two things out you can save about $2,500 a month right there. Those not saving money usually are paying extra for the maid and American Schools. American Schools for 3 kids runs about $2,000 a month for primary age kids. The Intl. and British schools will provide a great education and most US colleges (except maybe Ivy League) do not care which school your kids go to. Anyway, when the majors do start hiring maybe 5 years from now if you go to Emirates now then you will have wide body Captain time and if you hate Dubai then you leave. If you love it and stay , then with some budgeting and commitment to saving you will retire early 20 years down the road with enough money in the bank to do so.

10 years in the company and my provident fund is 110.000 US$, ok you can blame me for bad investing now, but show me one who made MUCH more.
how long can I live on that after I retire? well a long time in india or somalia, but not so long in a the US, forget europe.

dont know why the average EK pilot always brags about his income, is it to justify his decision to himself or his buddys back home?

I am not writing that to keep anybody from joining EK, because nobody will listen anyway, but I love it when I fly with them after they have been here for a year, I just tell them what I've been told years before "shut up or leave"

Kool Aid Drinkers
 

Keep drinking the Kool Aid fellows. We all know you are trying to justify why you left your home country to come to the sand. Money might be comparble or even better depending on which airline you can from but you can not put a price on quality of life or happiness.
By cutting out the American schools and the maids you are depreving you and your family of two of the basic joys of actually living in the sandbox. Why deprive yourself anymore than you have to. What is next you are not going to eat out either to save money.
If it is so much better in the sand why does not EK have all kinds of apps from all kinds of airlines. By the management own admission they are only getting 100 apps a week and they are from the commuter pilots and we all know how depserate they are. No widebody pilots or top tier airline pilots are comiing.

Gortex

Okay, as you've asked.

$119,000 and exactly 5 years here. You and Cerbus might want to consider using the C fund if you want your PF to grow. Far wider selection of funds, all of which are available to joe public. Some of these funds have produced excellent returns. I stick in 12% every month and only started 2 years ago. I also arrange at least 1 meeting a year for financial recommendations, some of which I take, some not.

Like you, i'm no expert so rely on dollar cost averaging and am looking at a 15 year minimum investment time with a versified portfolio of funds. Another alternative is to send the missus out to sell a few Dubai villas. Now that would boost your Provident Fund!

monek,
you said it, you put your own money in, I just put the company money in, cos we are talking about a pension from EK.
of course if I invest 500.000 in the C account from my own money, I would have 610.000, but thats is not a pension, you compare dates and camels here.

$75,000 after 7 years is a little low - I see about 85,000.
Managed funds on average return about 4% after fees. Those who see a significantly higher (or lower!) return are usually the beneficiary of currency movements - ie my European fund has done well.
It's a fair scheme but you'll have to stay for 30 years for it to be useful for your retirement. Which sort of makes sense if you think about it.
On another note applications rose dramatically after the profit share was announced. So that worked - no need for large salary increase now...!

cereb- that is not what the weekly propaganda rag is reporting. Plenty of apps according to management.

Jeez guys, what have you been doing?

135,000USD after 7 1/2 years. It's not that hard if you swap funds around a bit as the world economy goes through its different cycles.

Gortex

I take your point but being apathetic to the problem is hardly helping your cause. I knew from doing the maths when I joined that to receive anything worthwhile would require further investment. The C fund is a vehicle to achieve that.

My salary affords a good standard of living and the amount left over is invested. What we all invest our 'left overs' into is up to us as individuals, based on attitude to risk and goals. Join the gold rush into Dubai property maybe or how about a safe but paultry 2% in the greedy local bank?. Or you could always send it home with a crap exchange rate.

Whatever you do, what i'm not prepared to do, is come back here in another ten years and complain that my PF fund is only worth $150,000 after a total of 20 years because I wasn't prepared to invest some of my own tax free salary.

You pays your money and takes your choices in this life. Camels, dates, call it what you like but at the end of the day it's your pension, not EK's.

BYMONEK

Quick question: when you leave after 7 years, do you get the End of Service Gratuity as well as the company PF contributions, or is it just whichever is worth most?

Option 2, (your second guess).

Yeah......I guess we don't have a penson fund here. Its a provident fund. Go figure.....:8

I don't believe many people(including myself) understand the difference. The fact is most employers these days are moving to "total cost of employment" packages. They give you a certain amount of loot for doing the job and you decide how you want to split it in terms of spending money and reirement benefits.

At EK they have made the decision for us, although you can put in more through the C fund. The end of service benefit is like an insurance if you like. After 7 years you get the full company contribution(I think its 7?). If you managed to screw it up and lose most of the money through bad selection of funds then they will step up and give you at least the EOS benefit amount.

I personally wish they would ditch the PF altogether and just give me the cash. Time to get real guys, you are not going to walk away with millions like an american pilot:suspect:........the PF here may not be the best in the world but it is certainly not "non existent" as implied by some people and is probably better than most.

Uplock, unfortunately you are dreaming. The days of final salary pension schemes are well and truly over in the UK and the rest of Europe and, I imagine, in America as well. The pension/provident fund (I don't know the difference either, but I think a pension fund has to be used to buy and annuity when you retire- a provident fund you just get the cash to do with as you will. I'd rather have a provident fund thanks.) isn't the best in the world but it is no worse than I had in the UK.

Bymonek and Kenny are right, in the 21st century no company really cares what happens to its employees when they retire but Emirates at least gives us free financial advice and an opportunity to pay more into the provident fund if we want to. If we choose not to take that advice I don't see how we can then complain that the provident fund is rubbish.

ladies,
please dont call it pension if you put your own money in, call it saving instead.

a company pension is paid by the company and not by the employee.

Kenny the King, Im so glad you noticed.

I'll say it again. The point of this thread started by AC was to educate people like us who might have at one time been considering to come to the middle east about the possible negatives. But then those negatives are in the eye of the beholder arent they. If your so happy with what you have there, good for you. When its time to hand out raises, you can stay home and say no thanks. Everyone is interested in making their lot better...how can you do that if there is no one to talk to about it? You going to just accept what the company tells you? Dont be foolish...

By the way, my company, like yours is not too bad. But it has its issues as well. Alot of us are simply researching to see if there Dubai is really the paradise people like you talk about. You have your right to talk about it..and AC has his. Im much more appreciative of AC's candidness than your blind happiness.

Everyone knows Emirates is a descent job, but wouldnt it be amazing if it...
-Had a cash payment pension plan on an ongoing basis....like Cathay!
-Had a continuous seniority based bidding system....
-Had better duty time rules...
-Had better sick day rules and pay... (its beyond me that a company doesnt pay for a quota of sick days like every company and that you defend this! This is a basic human right! Everyone gets sick on occasion. You know Fatigue is sickness also.... and I need those sick days for this reason occasionally...especially after debating with you!
-etc etc!

Talking about theses things on a forum like this is productive because it gets people knowing what their getting into...and gets people talking. That in turn puts pressure on companies to improve conditions.
If AC is so dumb, then why do I have to explain this concept to you? I say it again, thanks AC for giving us the goods.

Here's a good one, I know of 2 people that left a company and gave up a seniority no. to go to Emirates, then after 1 year they both quit and went back to their first comany to rejoin at the bottom of the list again. That speaks volumes and is categorical and irrefutable FACT that what AC is talking about is true.

Finally....if your so happy Kenny, why are you surfing PPRUNE? Surfing for a job (nope), or just have no life? Or just too hot outside to enjoy your nice Villa?

Orange

Triple nickel orange you are right on with your posting. I believe there are company Kool Aid drinkers maybe paid by the company or at least strongly encourged to get on pprune and refute all "negative" postings. Negative and truth might be sonomus in Emirates view, you know how they are. They will do whatever to get to the top.

Whats the bull!!!! about sickpay. You get sick and you still get normal pay.Pretty standard stuff to me. What more do you want? A sick bonus?

Stop with the Kool Aid mentality. When you call in sick and we all know that EK pilots have to call in sick because of where they live in the world and the kind of flying they do CC can reschedule you a flight even on your days off. When you do call in sick you lost the credit for that trip you called in sick for. If you were in productivity you lost that pay as well. It is not a typical sick base system and would not stand up under any test in the first world. Drink away Kool Aid members!

It's exactley the system I worked under in both Australia and the UK. But I guess not being in North America, they're not "First World" countries....

many many airlines are , you dont fly you dont get flight pay, all depends on how much flt pay is , at EK the flt pay is very littleat the moment IE @10%

555orange,

Thank you.....at last you make some sense. I have no problem debating the merits of EK but, lets face it, your previous post was just an inflammatory dig at guys that disagree with AC.

You are quite right, AC has his right to express his opinion but he has chosen to do so on a public forum where his post is going to be scrutinised and may(or may not) be contradicted.

In terms of the points you mention........EK is a decent job with a package that is good by world standards(IMHO). Sure, I wish I had got 6 months bonus instead of 3.5 months. Sure I wish I had a 25% pay rise rather than the measly 12% that I got, but they a commercial operation and want to make a profit.

I don't know what Cathay offer, but we have a provident fund.....what more do you want? What is this cash payment pension plan you refer to?

Continuous seniority based bidding system? What for, many(me included) like the existing system?

Better duty time rules? The rules are pretty clear. I may not like working that hard but the rules are fine. Nobody likes a redeye through the night(and I just did 2 of them) but that is the nature of the job. I take the good with the bad.

Sick rules and sick pay? EK is a first rate company when it comes to this. If you call in sick, sure they don't pay you the flight pay(all of 45dhs/hr in my case) but that is life. What is more important, you can call in sick for 48 hours no questions asked. I had to go for an operation 6 weeks after being signed out and they took me off the roster, no questions asked, for as long as I needed. There have been cases of guys off sick for over a year, once again on full pay......oops, sorry, they didn't get flight pay.

If you call in sick for a long trip, once you get better, sure they put you on "available days" and sure you generally end up picking up the crappy flights. Apparently in utopia where AC comes from they console the sick guys with nice flights because crappy flights don't exist. Once again get real guys.....we have some nasty flights and if you are a free being with no roster for a few days, you are likely to land one of them. This is just a reality....not EK scheduling trying to punish you.

In terms of those guys that gave up after a year....sure it does happen. There are realities to living here. Very often, the wife takes strain and if she is not happy, you gonna pick up problems. AC makes a valid point with his post in that it is a big decision and not to be taken lightly but I have to wonder where his mind was when he came for his interview. Its almost like it came as a surprise to him that you cannot change fleets, only have one base or that we fly through the night.

I actually wonder myself why I post here.......:ugh:

Cerebus,

:D

Please can you point me in the direction of who hands out the cash for positive posting on Prune.....because right now damned if I'm not doing it for free.......its just not fair.

And what is this Kool Aid stuff:confused:

Completely off the subject here, is it true a captain got asked to leave because on a leave ticket , he was giving a hostie some action in his firstclass cube?

Another was also asked to leave as he was giving one of the recruitement ladies deep ones in the business class toilets on a longhaul flight.

Dont correct my spelling i know its bad , just give us some info here !!!

Sounds like the easy way out of EK

Jock,

Another was also asked to leave as he was giving one of the recruitement ladies deep ones in the business class toilets on a longhaul flight

Utter nonsense! It was the Economy class toilet!:}

Also have to interject about this sick pay crap...... A Capt on the B777 recently completed 7 months of sick leave after busting his leg in a desert motorbike accident. Company were (in his words) 'Brilliant' and was on full captains salary throughout.

Whats the problem? Do you guys expect a medal, and extra pay for being off sick?

Oblaaspop,

Some people and some companies would consider your example disability instead of sick..........

Sick usually implies a short period of time at some companies and it is a shame,that if you are calling in sick for a trip, you might be missing out on the productivity pay!!

But we're all professionals right......???!!

I think your a bit confused.

All employees are entitled to paid sick leave, as specified in their Contract of Employment.

Employee Handbook, Chapter 1 - A2, Page 1

Unless you leave within the first couple of years EOSB doesn't apply - all management staff above grade 9 (includes Flight Crew) are in Provident Scheme instead of EOSB.

As far as I know there isn,t any flag carrier in Europe (first world after all) with a different sick pay scheme.
Anyway has been in the contract as it is for a long time. maybe you U.S. boys who joined in the last 1 and a half year should have better read the fine print. To eager to jump from an regional I guess. After all its al about doing your homework isn,t. Shame you dragged your family into it.:=

From what I've seen over the years, the way the company has treated a number of people (pilots) who have had long term sick leave is one area you could not complain about.

We are not talking about long term medical cases. What we were talking about is short term sick issues. This is when you are sick for a couple of days, 2-3 days. Emirates does not pay you for this. You lose the trip credit and you lose the productivity pay if you are in overtime. I don't know how they did it in Europe or even care but we should get full credit for the trip, pay and overtime. That is a sick pay system.
At EK if you call in sick you DO NOT GET PAID! I know a lot of you Kool Aid partitioners think Emirates is great and the world revolves around EK and you have had worked at places nothing better than EK but wake up and at least notice what you are missing. That is a simple request.

Why do you think they started the flt pay system? Most pilots here are money hungry and as soon as they are in productivity they will think twice about booking off. But you still get all of your basic which is 90% of your total. Most airlines are pay for flying only, if they are on pure hourly they have a min pay for the month( @60-65) which covers off a book off with NO pay.

No, that is a North American sick pay system.

No, because if it's not how it was done where you came from, it doesn't exist- though you did care when you said this-

Seems the first world just got smaller!!

Yes you do, you get paid base salary!

Yes, we get it. In the US you get paid for flying you didn't do- fine and dandy.

You also get to fly for carriers that are hemorrhaging money, furloughing and downsizing or just plane going out of business. You get to spend years flying foe a regional on slave wages before finally cracking a major, only to find yourself back on the streets next time oil goes up (Oh, and FIRST WORLD countries have decent redundancy payment laws- not like that bosses Paradise in the US!).

Wake up and notice what you are NOT missing- Job Security for one.

Basic salary-call sick-get paid.
Flight pay-call sick, you did not fly-don't get paid.
Productivity pay-call sick, you did not produce-don't ge paid.
Seems fair to me.

7

Cerbus

You're talking utter tosh.

If you call in sick, you DO get paid. Simple as that. You get paid your basic salary at the months end, whether you've been sick for 2-3 days or the whole month. Of course you don't get flight pay. That's because you ain't done the flight you numpty. Why on earth should you get flight pay let alone overtime when you're at home. I've never known any Airline to do that. If they do that in the good ol' US of A, is it any wonder the Airlines are in such a mess out there.

Come out with that sort of crap on the line and it's a band aid you'll be needing, not kool aid.

Sickpay, duty rules... to me these are minor things, but nice to know what the real deal is from the guys/gals on the line. But I have to be honest, the biggest issues for me are
1. Living there...temp/treatment of wives fam/feeling like a foriengner/driving/beyond the city.. anything? etc
2. Standard of living...
3. Why are all the Villa's the same.. is there a cash scheme so you can do your own thing?
4. How easy is it to get time off when you want... Mom and Dads 50th Anniversary coming up, and id rather lose my job than take the pain from my folks for missing that shin dig!
5. How easy is it to get out of Dubai/Abu Dhabi monthly if reqd
6. Is there a min duty pay for ultra short flights? Getting paid 3 hours for a 10 hour duty day is just not right.
7. final and biggest negative.... dir entry Commanders. BIG X on the deal breaker there. How do the current FO's feel about this. Why arent they upgraded?? Not good enough? The experience of the guys i've seen going in are much more than normal... should be proficient enough. Or is it just a matter of crew experience demographics... Take note if there are in fact company people parouzing this thread... this is for many the Deal breaker.

Thanks guys.

Orange.

wizzo is a DEC, that is why he is so happy in the land of the sand. Emirates is also the best job he ever has had (says a lot of his mindset doesn't it) and he crossed the picket line in OZ to go to work for Anset. I thought the pilots in recruitment kept scum like him out of EK. No such luck for the pilot group anymore.
Well a sick based system would be you get paid for missing your trip. We will just have to disagree on that issue as well. I don't believe it is crap but a truly sick policy. I had no idea of the soft c$%& that make up EK pilots. Let's all bend over and take it where the sun don't shine because some of the world's airlines are having trouble. We don't deserve any work rules.
Why would any pilot join Emirates when the new hire knows full well how Emirates treats its employees. What they are saying is F%$# the FOs we don't care about you one bit. Buyer beware!

Guys
I was seriously considering applying to Emirates, until i read this thread!

The world over, Airlines are struggling. If you've worked for a number of carriers (like me) who are only into cutting costs down as much as possible, then it seems to me that Emirates is still a good deal.

Please, can I get some real info about what it is really like working for Emirates? :)

Regards

Dashim

Nice one cerbus (Did you mean Cerberus, the three-headed dog who guards hell? Also, AnsetT (two Ts)).

Can't hack the argument, so go for the man.

Nice.