Yup
 

That is exactly what will happen.
There is a reason the policy has the 330/340 Captains passing a Captains Review Board in order to return to the left seat. This is because after 3 PPC's and 24 months and 1000 hours, these captains will find the 380 fleet has shrunk by 20-30 aircraft. Since there will not be any 380 left seats available there will be no Captains Review. The 24 months policy will expire and the Captains will be returned to FO pay. And once again the pilot group will remain indifferent because it wasn't them. The famous EK carrot and the stick. Keep em around long enough to commit them. Anyone who thinks with EK who is loosing millions flying around half full 380's will continue operating those A/C at the current level is wrong. The captains are not getting the left seat due to lack of experience, they are not getting the left seat because there will be a reduction in 380's. These 330 captains will not see a left seat again for a long long time, and after 18-24 months will back to FO pay. Yes it is speculation on my part, but honestly could anyone truthfully say they could not see this playing out exactly this way.

120 feet: totally agree
at present they try to hire Lufthansa 380 TRE's and offering them a huge( 1Mio €) sign on bonus if they stay for more than 4 years.
So far nobody took the offer!

120feet absolutely spot on... I feel the 380 could be the end of EK if they are not careful.. They need to seriously look at cancelling their orders and maybe ground some planes if they are to move forward..

Olbie:
the number is not made up.
PM me for the evidence
But numbers are not important here, get the point: They pay TREs to sign up while you get nothing additional. But hope for your payrise-good luck

Don't know if Talparc's number is right. But the rumour that EK shows a "big fat" carrot to LH TRE's is around for some time....

120ft Talparc Exdubai olbie Jetkopite
thanks...

Honestly...do you have something more than conspiracy theory ?

What about writing together with us ("dirty dozen times 5") a letter to the 9th floor to express disgust or at least sympathy for you fellow colleaugues?

...what a sadness...

CTWO
PM me if you want evidence unfortunately this is no conspiracy theory!

I tend to agree about the theories about the future of the 380, which will affect what happens to these guys going across to the RHS.

Rumour has it that the majority of the 380 routes are losing hundreds of millions of dirhams a month (overall). If that's the case, clearly CM's first job will be to deal with that.

It gives EK a chance to bail out of future 380 deliveries and save face. They'll negotiate a deal with Airbus, who will be happy to shut down the production line and transfer orders across to the 350.

The whole thing will delay further deliveries to EK, which is exactly what they need right now....a huge drop in passenger numbers and not enough pilots..the perfect solution for a complete halt in expansion while blaming everyone else.

Interesting times ahead.

Guys, again rumors do not help...

So far I got no evidence, only gossips and rumors and "trough the grapevine" via PM....

Letters would help....

Losses
 

KC makes a good point , I think we all know that the massive 380 orders incl showers ! Was a bridge too far .
I'm no finance expert but I ask myself why this strategy wasn't followed by other carriers ? Are Ek so brilliant ? STC has staked his reputation on this & talks a good game but even with fuel prices at a low point , is it a success ? I'm not sure , surely a token 10 - 20 or so airframes as a " jewel in the crown" marketing strategy might have been sufficient . Lots going on behind the curtain & it is a nice pax experience ... But I still sense that the " pissing contest " mentality got the better of business nous ...

O.K, I'm send an Email to the LH CP and ask him to confirm. Do you want it on the LH letterhead?

Yes it is a rumour, but I don't know why somebody asked me about EK, Dubai and the qol if he doesn't think about the option.

To the rocket scientists that believe that the shafting of the A334 skippers is directly related to the demise of the 380 fleet, can you please explain why upgrades are still underway on it? Much less time and money to take a 334 skipper than upgrade an FO. And we all know dollar is king in these parts.
Grow up. Your colleagues are being shafted. Take your paranoia elsewhere.

@Don Any idea why this happens?

Confused ?
 

I recall all 380 F/O,s had to iupgrade initially on the 330/340 prior to transferring to the LHS 380 ? . Then to accommodate a few local Captains this policy was changed ...( hours needed etc . ) Headline News , upgrade celebrations and so on ! Now it seems everyone can " have a go " except for many 330 / 340 captains ....
Confused !

First command
 

Just to clarify their first command was the A380 .... Thoughts ?

And your point is? Just wondering if you're one of the stereotypical 777 guys who are always first to point out that the 380 is "just another plane" but are even quicker to cry like a baby when A380 FO's get their first command on the jet.

Ex dubai. Until recently you required 3000hr command on an EK type to move onto the 380 as a Capt.

As the 330/340 wound down, it became obvious that some Capts on that fleet could not achieve this. So recently this requirement was exempted.

It would appear that this exemption and exemption of reduction of hours to start command course on any fleet has been removed since the 777 burnt out in front of the HQ.

The option of sending Capts to the right seat is badly thought out. Transitioning them onto the 777 would have been much fairer.

There is no conspiracy nor boogey man behind the door. Just simple bad management.

@Don


intressting that a commander needs 3000hr to go over, while a FO is in CCP with just 2000hr EK 380 and not a single minute widebody before that. expierence way less than the Commander.


and does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them.


This is not only bad management

But many of the guys being shifted from A330/340 to the RHS have well over 3000 hours EK Command. Where is the logic or benefit of this shoot-from-the-hip policy??
My sympathies to those who have been royally shafted on this.

Lots of root causes behind the recent B777 crash. While no one yet knows all the answers, I'm pretty certain that a lack of A380 time for the Commander was NOT a factor!

I didn't make the rules WB1900, nor do I agree with them. 334 Capts have been shafted with this 3000hr ruling for years. It was only recently exempted.

Avid you sure about that? Its only the fellas with less than 2000hrs command that are being shafted isn't it?

You are correct...non of these changes would have stopped that 777 from crashing.

@don


Does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them?

WB you may have missed the bit where I said I didn't make the rules. Nor do I agree with them.

donpizmeov

you got that right,only guys with less then +2000hrs PIC EK A330/340 are being shafted..

point is those guyshave been sitting on the LHS long enough to accrue 3000+ if not 4000 ,were they flying an A380 or a 777.

For years flying many short sectors, many cycles, low hours ( average 50 a month) with 7-8 days off a month, all night time, all monsoon all was zones...doing MFF on the different birds..copying with old airplanes and snugs, working in **** hole airports,with following handling and ATC..

getting paid less, working much harder...

is that less experience then watching movies and sipping coffee in a ULR augmenting???
are we not SAFE????

I don't know why, but I sense, were you in our shoes your comments would be a little less accommodating...

This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.

Plus not applied to every captains equally.. why a <2000 hrs PIC 777/380 captain is SAFER then me, to not deserve to seat on the RHS to gain experience and make them feel SAFE?


why not give the possibility to change fleet? why do not make us cruise captain? why another upgrade review and "captain transfer course"? why the shame? why the ****?


...what a sadness...

only first sentence is for donpizmeov....to clarify

If only Airbus had designed their aircraft with a level of commonality to allow a relatively straightforward transition between types, then EK wouldn't have to implement such a policy. Oh, wait...

Eeeeeer not true. Back when Gulf Air crashed in 2001, the EK command criteria went from 4500hrs/competence to 9000hrs/3years before coming back to 6000hrs/3years. Gulf Air didn't change theirs.

In the US to appease the Colgan families the FAA mandated 1500hrs for commercial operations. We all know that was just dumb but the FAA believed something needed to be seen to be done which is the same reason for a Captain having to ask a Grade 2 to come to the cockpit so they can go pee pee.

You clearly believe they are trying to personally shaft you. They are not; they are doing what all managers do, something to be seen to be doing something. But...whilst your frustrations can be understood the way you present them risks vindicating the decision taken.

Just confused
 

As I said I'm just confused at the constant changes to 380 LHS requirements ... In fact I rarely follow the ever moving goalposts but in this case I feel that some of our colleagues have been treated badly . Hasn't occurred to me to cry like a baby though ! .. and some of the posts were very informative regarding required hrs etc . I also believe that Rh to Lhs transitions on type are fine , more experienced carriers than EK have successfully done this , & with the reduction of the 330/340 fleet I suppose there weren't many other options .. There is probably a financial angle as well but unsurprisingly I can't see it .

Errr....Schnowzer

How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.

And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back.

Eeeeeer....

Schowzer

" having people with four stripes and 4years WB experience sitting on the RHS as FO and go again trough command upgrade" IS unheard of!
...raising requirement might be something needed to be seen ..although not quite fair..

If this is the case why do not go retroactive and put RHS all the captainss with less then 2000 hrs EK WB PIC time ? How would you like that?

You see, we are the worst enemies of ourselves :if things do not touch you, or you have been screwed somehow,somewhere or somewhat before you instantly get happy to see someone else suffer of unfairness...

talking about frustration and "vindicating decision taken" , may be you misunderstood that my sadness is toward the numbness and the responses of the population,not the fact per se..

As far as I am concerned, nothing can be done except taking a decision at home ,each one with his own family and for the best..of the family..

l have learned many years ago not to hope in rescue coming from unions or pilots or management...

Finally Just consider this "more for your benefit then mine"..today is me;tomorrow ,who knows?

More hours does not necessarily equal greater experience
 

The entire aviation industry needs to wake up to the fact that using total hours as measure of a pilot's experience (and therefore suitability for a role) is outdated and irrelevant. Number of sectors flown is far more relevant.

Since the advent of long haul and ultra long haul flying, it has been possible to build thousands of hours whilst gaining very little useful experience.

The nature of the flying at Emirates means that many EK pilots have done just that.

The guys who have gained really useful experience on a widebody Airbus in the meantime are now the ones being screwed by this ridiculous policy.

Funnily enough I had a chap from Airbus on the CDG flight a few weeks back. We got talking and basically he said that EK would struggle to carry on with the 380. The ideal use for them is like someone already pointed out, 10 or so with fancy cabins, and Jewell in the fleet etc.

But anyway- why the f*** would a company demote experience 330/340 guys? Surely the whole idea of the similar familiar cockpit design was to assist in such a transfer, not to downgrade etc! I believe BA did this when then acquired the 380 buy having guys off the 320 move over.

OMAAbound

Considering that the skipper in question most probably did a transition upgrade (i'm not absolutely sure though), maybe this was a bad idea .....

The 'family ghost' always appears when such transitions retard the personal carreer :{, but there is something to it. AB and B put in quite some effort to make transitions within their product easier (cheaper for company). Pilots however want to be promoted and for that would not deny any equipment change (more doe). Both sides easily swap arguments pro or con to suit their momentary needs. I remember the T7 FOs grinding at the idea of 334 FOs transit upgrading, just as 380 FOs called T7 skippers transiting dangerous.

As i said, there is something to it. Trained and experienced on one philosophy, regarding the complexity of modern aircraft, one might have to remain in that line, as a lot of automatisms and underlying programmation (thus inherent dangers) can be better mitigated (Swiss cheese model).
Same goes with a seat change. The one time we change is the time we get the most training -- upgrade. Downgrades are done with little regard to training needs, short and often unnecessary. I am no fan of seat changes (see the problems AF447 revealed).

Considering the above, i find the actual policy inadequate. The EK 334 skippers are qualified enough to make the jump onto the 380. If they upgraded from the 334 they are more suited to operate the 380, even with only 1000h captaincy, than a T7 skipper with the required hours.

Well if the company would downgrade all 380 captains with less than 2000 pic hours on 380... It would be hundreds of captains downgraded...not an option.
This downgrade story happened already in history in western europe in 2006 or 7 then with the time those concerned left or got promoted again.
In EK most of us have been trapped at least once( twice personnally).
Wouldn't be an insurance problem now after the accident if those criterias are changing? Who knows?

Lots of LHS A330 jobs on the first page of Flightglobal jobs website...didn't even scroll to second page.

https://jobs.flightglobal.com/searchjobs/?Keywords=Captain&radialtown=&LocationId=&RadialLocation=5

The best part is, if you miss the pit (don't laugh!) - you can come back in a couple of years time as a 380 DEC and go through the transition with one of your downgraded mates!


😂
TIC -

sad but stranger things have happened around here

Good stuff Toledo .
I've read a lot of junk here and your post is right to the point.
Hours as a measure of suitability is utter nonsense.
Moreover, As a point of note : I'd rather be sat in the back with my family of a 380 who's captain is fresh off the ccq and has 15 years experience on 320, 330 and 340.
Verses sat in the back of a triple 7, who's Captain is fresh off the 330 to 777 transfer and has 15 years experience on the 320 330 and 340.
Notice I've made no reference to hours - I'll take the Cm1 with the most time below 10,000ft on a similar type.

The focus on block hours in this industry is madness. If you don't look at number of flights and type of flying block hours says absolutely nothing about your experience.

Camel,

None but then again we also had guys complaining about being stuck on the A310 even though it gave them a command 2 years quicker than their peers! In the past, the rules changed on a whim and instead of having a Captain's pay packet they stayed as FOs flying to just the same crappy destinations that you have been to for another 3 years or so whilst the company employed DECS.

Believe it or not crappy rosters have been around since before you joined, as have DECs and shifting terms and conditions. I actually wouldn't give a toss if I was in the RHS but being paid as a Captain, if the alternative was to be stuck as an FO. For years we argued for bypass pay, it sounds like you have got closer to it than anyone ever before.

Out of interest, how would you feel about a Captain upgraded on the 330 jumping ahead of their more senior peers on the A380 that didn't get upgraded on the 330 before they were then forced into a fleet transfer?

"And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back."

I didn't say anything about that! I have been a massive supporter that experience has nothing to do with flying hours, so I am with you on that one, but do you think that has anything to do with it? I also don't think it matters which seat you are in as long as you are fully engaged, experience is experience.

As to downgrades, we have had guys recruited as DECs turned into First Officers on their course and guys passed over for command at will. At various times the 330 has been faster than the 777 and vice versa. I joined and ended up behind all the 777 guys that joined with me but that was just my tough luck. I know many of the early movers to the 380 were really screwed by the change in command criteria after they joined the fleet and ended up years behind their mates on the 777.

Thanks Don, i understood your point on the rules




I just liked to ask if somebody knows whats going to happen with those DEC from 2013/14 which already shifted to 380, if they are safe or not. I believe they never ever have made 2000 stick time in 2,5 years either on 330 or 380 or on both together. this just out of couriosity w/o any comments who made the rule or how good it is.
i just liked to find out who is effectively effected by this


thanks