Riggwelter

Atuk,
Let me clarify my statement "If you're Asian or "other arab" you can probably do better elsewhere in the region".

First off, this statement applies only if you are a full time employee. Contractors all recieve the same pay, irregardless of nationality, which when coupled with tax free status and free housing and transportation(to work and back) is very good short term (i.e. a 1st Year Aramco contractor pilot will make more than a 1st year Emirates pilot, and I would say this is true until the Emirates pilot makes Captain and his benefits really start to accrue). So if you want to come here for a few years and have an adventure and save some cash I would say we are very competitive.
Having said that you would have to take a good hard look at the Asian package, if you were hoping for full time employment. We have no Malaysians working as pilots for us, but we do have a Pakistani guy, and he is very happy. His situation may be different than yours, though. He's a retired Air Force pilot(and all that implies) and has a family, and family life here plays a big part in why most of us stay. I have to admit that I am not really familiar with the nuances of other payrolls. I do know that the way Aramco comes up with the salary packages is they look at what you'd be making in your home country for the same job and then devise a scheme that would entice you enough to come out here. I'd be suprised if it wasn't significantly better than anything back home, all things considered.
All I can say is apply and see what they offer. Best of luck.

One last thing, As we fly U.S. registered aircraft everyone flying for us needs a US ATP. I think you do not need one for the interview but will need one to come over if we offer you a job.

BrasiliaCaptain

Riggwelter,

I gave Gary Bain a call yesterday and emailed him my resume and cover letter. The time in type thing still seems like an important factor, but Gary sounds like he is willing to give it a shot running it by the guys in Dhahran. My father is going to go through his manager as well to see if I can get some more backing. I will let you know what comes of it. Thanks again.

NG_Kaptain

Been lurking here a bit but I found the comments by Riggwelter very interesting. Two buddies of mine quit our company and have joined Aramco, saw one of them recently and had nothing but praises for the company and its operations. Made me want to dust off my resume and send it in. Are any contractors hired directly into left seat 737? Got a bit over 1300 hrs left seat 737 and 738 NG's, but have gone over to the other side and am a bus driver on the 343. BTW the guys are IJ and BS you should know them.
Cheers,
NG_K

Nevrekar

Riggwelter is obviously "on scene" and so has the latest information. When I was there it was pretty much the same. I was hired for the 737-200 (F/0).
I was already typed in the airplane with 6,000 hrs and a Master's degree.
When I got there I was also "assigned" the Twin Otter and then the CE-550.
I was sent to the States for the CE-550 S/P type authorization. The DHC-6 training was done locally. The CE-550 is only used for aerial photo missions. The twin otter was used for mostly medivac flight out of Shaybah. The pilot group when I was there consisted of Saudi nationals followed by U.S. citizens and Canadian citizens. There was 1 French national (U.S. green card holder). Everyone must have U.S. licenses and a medical. BTW you have to do your medical with the Dr. in Dhahran. So if you have something medical and have "Santa Claus" MD--think again!!

I did all my 737-200 training in DFW before heading to DHA. When you get there you train in the aircraft again--since money is no object, nor is ATC congestion. We went out in the 737 and did steep turns and stall recognition.

Riggwelter

NG Kaptain,
BS and IG do a very good job, if you're like them you should do fine over here. As for direct entry, well, yes we do it in almost all of the fleets, but it's done fairly rarely and getting a left seat in the 737-700 requires a lot of experience, our DE guys are retired Delta, Egyptair, Gulf Captains and have tons of time (several thousand PIC). IJ for example, would be a good candidate (I think he has 1000+ 737 PIC) but his experience level is too close (albeit superior) to guys that are senior to him and in the company but in a lower position. As you can imagine it's tough on everyone senior to the DEC but in a lower position.
Aramco purposely maintains a small pool of DEC contractors in most fleets to allow for contraction and expansion of requirements without having to axe/hire a company guy. Also, if you get hired on as a DEC contractor it's much harder to be selected as a full time employee(in a DEC position) because of the morale impact on other full time employees senior to you but lower than you. Having said that if the Aviation Department finds a really amazing guy with talent, personality, good attitude, and of course good political skills(whether genuine nice guy or whatever) they will occasionally offer full time DEC employment; Currently we are converting to full time employment one (1) DEC 737 Captain. He’s a retired Delta Captain and very, very good in the cockpit and in helping with office work (MEL revision, Ops manuals, that sort of fun stuff). It also helps that he’s as humble as pie.
We currently have DEC’s on the contracts side in the B737, H800, CE550, Twin Otter, Dash 8, and Air Tractor. Most expats that are hired full time usually jump straight into the 737 as an F/O (bypassing the Ab Initio Saudi’s in the Dash 8 and CE 550 F/O position) due to their experience and then rapidly move into Captain position in one of the smaller aircraft (like the CE 550 or more recently the H800), just like Nevrekar stated in his own experience. Over the past 4 years we’ve had about 4 guys get hired full time into the G-IV and 737 as skippers, which are Aramco Aviations top tier positions.
As one can imagine this has caused some frustration within the ranks, but due to steady turnover I think it’s rare that someone doesn’t reach the top within Aramco’s prescribed aircrew progression plan (give or take a couple of years). Basically someone who gets hired on by Aramco should be able to make Skipper on the 737 or G-IV within 9-12 years of fulltime service, irregardless of DECs and their starting position in the company.

NG_Kaptain

Thanks Riggwelter,

I might be marketable, Have 14,000+ total, 11,000 PIC spread out between HS 748, DC9, MD83, 737NG and A340. Am an oil brat too, grew up in the oilfields and am the only one in the kids in the family who flies. My siblings are with Baker, Schlumberger and Haliburton, the old man (Pops) was director of maintenance and pilot for one of the subsidiaries of Gulf Oil. Am an airline pilot now but am seriously looking for a change and your outfit seems very interesting. Was born and raised in a place sounding very similar to your base and am a US citizen. Appreciate your candid response. Tell the boys Captain America says Hi!!!

Riggwelter

In response to NG Kaptain/Captain America and all you other interested high time fella's out there. Due to a "Perfect Storm" of events it seems like we are on the cusp of experiencing a major shortage of 737 NG Captains (like in the next 1-6 months). Now, while I expect/hope that we will be upgrading some guys from the ranks I think there might be some room for a couple of guys to come in from the outside. Either way I am certain that we will be hiring for many positions and if you have any interest in our humble little operation I would suggest throwing your hat in the ring. From past experience preference seems to go to guys with lots of time in our types, who are current or at least rated in one or more of our types, and are open minded. So if you got 3000 hours in 737NG that'll probably beat a guy w/ 25,000+ in 747-400. Also a US ATP is a must before you can come over(but not for an interview, I think), and the job openings will be for contract pilot positions only. We evaluate our contract guys once they've been here a while and a lucky(?) few might get picked for full time offers. Happy hunting gentlemen.

vagabond 47

Its all getting a bit "Sick Making" Guys...........remember we are grown ups and this the Middle East and not Happy Valley.........off target Garry?

Riggwelter

Ha ha you're right, this place sucks. Where are my matches?

The Middle East definitely isn't for everyone, ditto for Aramco. However, in the big scheme of things I really am happy, and there are lots of people like me here. There are also lots who are unhappy. I guess it's a matter of personal preference/taste. I see from your title you're in the UAE, how do you like it over there?


"...And those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music".
-complementary pithy qoute.

vagabond 47

At times and places like these I think of "Jack, in One flew over the Cuckoos nest".

Riggwelter

I've recieved many emails from people requesting contact info for jobs at Aramco, or more info on Aramco itself. Check out www.jobsataramco.com . This website should point anyone interested in the right direction. Disregard the fact that we are currently not advertising pilot positions on the website, we are actively looking, updating of this specific site is slow. Good luck.

sorath5

I am a US based Technician who has sent my resume several times to them. I have the experience they are looking for, but have never been contacted. Is it like a government job where you have to know someone to get hired? Does anyone have a name in HR they can provide? Seems like the application process is not very personal.

QSK?

Can anyone supply the relevant contact details for the Manager, Flight Operations for Saudi Aramco (ie name, telephone, email address)? I have tried the SA switchboard and their webmail inquiry facility with no joy.

Thanks.

Human Cargo

For those of you that may be concidering Aramco / Saudi Aramco Aviation as an alternative to recover your retirement or maybe as "NEW OPPORTUNITY" BE VERY CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!
1..Contrary to popular belief or rumor Saudi Aramco is not a career move at any level, it is pure and simple just another contract, but with a Multi Billion Dollar Oil Company........IT IS NOT AN AIRLINE!!!!

2..You will probably be recruited by someone from Aramco Aviation Services in Houston TX, they do all the selection, evaluation,and pay for the recurrent/ Initial B737NG or Dash8 Training as needed. THEY ARE A FIRST CLASS ORGANIZATION!!!!!!. They really treat you as a company such as ARAMCO should. They really take care of any problem you have almost as though you are a perminent Pilot with the company everything is first class!!!!, ( even though at this time you are just a potential Contractor/ Consultant nothing has been signed!!) from the moment you are contacted by them to the day you arrive in Bahrain on your way to SAUDI, everything is First Class!!!, no problem is too big or too small for them.
3..The problem comes when its time to fill out the NUMERIOUS forms (actually its the same form) but as there is no one to show you the correct way to fill them out so you now engage in a sort of back and forth game with the Chief Pilot's secretary untill someone out of compassion shows you the correct way( because the same thing happened to him when he was new) or they get tired of you. Remember this is all your expense money you have from your training in the USA and the hotel cost's you encur during your travel from the USA to SAUDI.
4.. Both The Chief Pilot and The Fleet Manager of the Type aircraft you will be flying know the date and time of you departure and arrivial into the Kingdom of Saidi Arabia, but the do not even have ANY CONCERN about your well being other than the fact they have to send some one to have you picked up at the hotel in Bahrain. There is NO PHONE CALL OR ANYONE THERE TO MEET YOU ON YOUR ARRIVAL!! in Bahrain!!! Just a hope that everthing has gone as it should so far.
5..The Accomodation is basic, they provide no transport except to and from work. There is no internet supplied, no TV, However their is internet available but it requires coersion and underhanded ways to have it installed.There is phone service in the apartment BUT SAUDI ARAMCO SECURITY OFFICIALS LISTEN IN ON ALL CALLS!!! The distance form the housing area to the grocery or the resturant is approximately 5Km. and there is no way there but to walk or find the bus schedules and take the bus,and it is a little too far to walk in the average 43 degree C./
122 Degree F. average daily temperature you will face. So in addition to your jet lag and disorientation you now have to find a way to get to the resturant to eat.There are alot of good guys there who will help you out, but untill you find them and make friends with them, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN.
6..As time goes by and you get into your routine,some things become Quite apparrent....All the proceedures that you have learn't or were taught in the sim training while in the USA are TOTALY USELESS!!!
Your are part of the Saudi Aramco Aviation Department which DOES NOT HAVE AN OPPERATING CERTIFICATE!!! and is operating under the provisions of FAR Part 61!!!!! Imagine that Operating a B737 or a Dash8 on a scheduled passenger Operations and not have so much as an Operating Certificate!! They use a mix of SOME FAR's SAUDI Proceedure's and local In "House Desert"proceedure's as their day to day operating proceedures.
7..Their "Training Department" comprises of very experienced Pilots from various parts of the world, !!!BUT NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER HAD ANY FORMAL TRAINING OR INSTRUCTIOR's or IN BEEN A TRAINING CAPTAIN!!! and NEITHER HAVE THEY BEEN APPROVED BY THE FAA.
8..They were appointed Instructors BY MEMO FROM THE CHIEFPILOT!!!NOT buy the FAA AS IT SHOULD!
So now you show up for your first day to go fly with someone who does not even know the FUNDERMENTALS OF INSTRUCTING,and WORSE.... Neither DO they HOLD AN FAA FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS RATING or do they HOLD ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY BY THE FAA TO CONDUCT ANY TRAINING!!! ground or Flight, which means that you the Pilot are putting your Ticket out the for the FAA to revoke IMMEDIATELY!!! Becausethis is an illegal opperation!! THERE IS NO FAA OVERSIGHT!! The Chiefpilot claims that the company has a FAA POI in DUBAI. But his is prohibited from traveling to SAUDI ARABIA because of the Present Government Ban on all travel to SAUDI ARABIA, so the are "SELF POLICEING" Honestly in SAUDI ARABIA is as fleeting as the Rains in Jubail!
9.. After the first month has passed you expect to be paid....ALL the perminent pilots have been paid, BUT YOU HAVE NOT RECIEVED YOUR CHECK!! You ask about and they say they'll look into it, but nothing, you check with your bank in the country you live but there is nothing!!!! FINALLY half way thru the next month your money "may show up" or they cut you a check. But by then you have exhausted nearly all your funds.
Numerious complaints to the chief pilots office or his secretary(who is very powerful) yelds little concern!
10.. As a "Consultant" you are a 2nd class person in Saudi ARAMCO!! you do not exist there!! outside of the Aviation Department, you do not have an residence papers(AGAMA) you were issued a non employment visa.that clearly states "NOT PERMITTED TO WORK" also you were issued the Camp ID and the Plant ID,
11..If you are unfortuneate enough to get sick, and try to go to the ARAMCO Hospital to get first aid or Medical attention for a serious illness,YOU DON'T EXIST IN ANY COMPUTER SYSTEM except for the Aviation Department, and if you dont exist in computer system then you Cannot get any medical attention in the SAUDI ARAMCO Hospital. So what do you do? You go to the other hospital there in Dhaharan...SAAD but you will pay!!! almost twice as much as you would for comparable treatment in the US,but your Medical insurance will not cover you,even though its the EXACT same insurance as you have in the USA.
12.. SO working for SAUDI ARAMCO is not for every one and any rational to going there is pure speculation untill you are are offered a perminent position. There is no garantee of that ever happening to you and there is not seniority or requirements to fill or lenght of time served,it total dumb luck,and whether they like you, and how hard you try to Wank them off!!!
Some Guy's try to convert to Islam in hopes it will help them, but it didn't.
But once you Become perminent all of a sudden you exist and you are treated with respect,and The SAUDI PILOTS begin to open up you a bit.
13.. Depending on the fleet you are goning to be on The quality of pilot you fly with is questionable, On the Dash8 even though you are the Pilot In Command, and "ICAO Law say you are the Final Authority"if you are a "Consultant" you have no Athority The Local SAUDI First Officers are the ones that run the show, AND EVEN REPORT ON CAPTAINS PERFORMANCE, On the Boeing with FEW exceptions The SAUDI PILOTS flighing skills are at best poor, they CANNOT EVEN FLY A SIMPLE VISUAL VFR Traffic Pattern with out the help of the VNAV/ LNAV Function of the FMC, and though most of the flying is in VMC conditions they would be lost with out the RNAV approaches that they fly at various airports they fly to. They do not respect the 250kts below 10000 feet that everyone does and are always trying to find away or short cut dispite the companies mandate about safety. Not too long ago the had a SAUDI CAPTAIN Take the B737 to an altitude above its OPTIMUM ALTITUDE, needless to say he is still employed because HE IS SAUDI, while "CONSULTANT PILOTS" have been sent home for much much less.

So Though they throw alot of money at you,and though The Folks at ARAMCO AVIATION SERVICES treat you with PROFFESSIONAL Courtesy.
DON'T BE FOOLED STAY AWAY FROM SAUDI ARAMCO!!!!

Defenestrator

Welcome to the desert mate.
Good Luck

WhatsaLizad?

Would that be MAX or OPTIMUM?

filejw

Sounds like somebody doesn't know the difference between a corporate operation and an airline.

411A

...nor 14CFR61 and the more appropriate 14CFR91.

GlueBall

Didn't you know that an oil company is not an airline [Part-121] but a private airplane operator [Part-91]. Did you honestly think that you'd be something more than just a contractor truck/bus driver with wings...?

Petrovsky

Agreed: At this stage I believe they operate under a waiver of (most of?)Part 125. i.e Part 91. The decision for the FAA not to require full part 125 compliance may very well be as a result of pressure from other government departments as the said company may have supported (financially) re-election campaigns of a certain president.....