RIA Saudi Airlines?

[TBL Warrior]

Originally Posted by SimoFly

what on earth are you trying to prove?
The fact that I was looking to do my ME CRI is a problem?

I need not prove anything; this time last year, you were looking to buy hours, and to reach 30 hours PIC (total) time son. Just like that, you lost any and all credibility.

[SimoFly]

Originally Posted by TBL Warrior

I need not prove anything; this time last year, you were looking to buy hours, and to reach 30 hours PIC (total) time son. Just like that, you lost any and all credibility.

you don't know the conditions that I got from the flight school I cooperate with beside my airline job.
This attitude proves once again what I said before, your arguments are without any factual basis, a very poor quality for an airline pilot.
Once again, I don't like people with your attitude, it makes it very difficult for those of us that like the middle east and has it as the only GOOD option, I don't have an a380 operator back home waiting for my CV.

[Newhairdo]

Well, TBL & Sim, from your posts I reckon that neither of you are currently suited for the role of pilot with any airline.
As a start, calm down. If all you are worried about is getting 30 hours PIC, then you have problems

[cool&thegang]

Troll…no one is this dense.

Originally Posted by SimoFly

you don't know the conditions that I got from the flight school I cooperate with beside my airline job.
This attitude proves once again what I said before, your arguments are without any factual basis, a very poor quality for an airline pilot.
Once again, I don't like people with your attitude, it makes it very difficult for those of us that like the middle east and has it as the only GOOD option, I don't have an a380 operator back home waiting for my CV.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by TBL Warrior

I need not prove anything; this time last year, you were looking to buy hours, and to reach 30 hours PIC (total) time son. Just like that, you lost any and all credibility.

I find it very credible - the dude is from Europe:

Europe requires 30 hours PIC on MEP to teach MEP. Jet PIC does not count. I have thousands of hours on wide body Boeings but I only have about 3 hours PIC on a multi engine piston airplane (from my MEP and MEIR flight tests).

I would hazard a guess that 98% of European airline pilots have fewer than 5 hours PIC on MEP and would need to buy hours in order to instruct part-time.

[Qbix]

Originally Posted by SimoFly

stay in europe! do not come to the middle east if you want money.
There are many other countries in africa and asia where they have very good and knowledgeable pilots who will join for long term, if they ever need them.
I am sick and tired of whining pilots in the middle east.
Stay home, please!

you seem to be full of hate twards expats.
The truth is that if want qualified pilots not from third world countries you have to pay. especially if they gonna stay in a sht hole place.
same goes for expat expectations. nothing comes for free. bag of money gonna be paid but expect not an easy or pleasant contract

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Originally Posted by SimoFly

you don't know the conditions that I got from the flight school I cooperate with beside my airline job.
This attitude proves once again what I said before, your arguments are without any factual basis, a very poor quality for an airline pilot.
Once again, I don't like people with your attitude, it makes it very difficult for those of us that like the middle east and has it as the only GOOD option, I don't have an a380 operator back home waiting for my CV.

if you try to go to the dessert to fly the 380 I can promise you are far away from that first of all
secondly going to the desert because of the 380 is the complete wrong approach - the desert might not be for you even you fly the 380 after all
thirdly even in ek the 380 is a dead fleet. Some off the airplanes date back to 2005 they are going to be old with no replacement. They will start vanishing in a few years to come, solving the crewing issue with the 350. it might look attractive now but that’s gonna change, as ek is constantly changing their targets and efforts.

many of the ek Oldtimers have seen how the transfer worked from 330/340 to 380 and my guess is the same will happen from 380 to 350 with same level of acknowledgment

good luck with your attempt

[SimoFly]

Originally Posted by Qbix

you seem to be full of hate twards expats.
The truth is that if want qualified pilots not from third world countries you have to pay. especially if they gonna stay in a sht hole place.
same goes for expat expectations. nothing comes for free. bag of money gonna be paid but expect not an easy or pleasant contract

Qbix, I am not in EK for very long but since arriving here I didnt receive any bad treatment form locals nor from arabs in general yet again every now and then I hear complaints about them in this forum and in the flight deck. I come from Italy, far from being a more organized and civil place. Also, if my compatriots behaved a bit better away from home I would not hear constantly "Italians always......". The issues I had in EK are all with badly educated frustrated expats, particularly Brits and Aussie, that is my experience. Regarding your comment on pilots from third world countries, I could not disagree more, I think there are many well trained and prepared individuals from not so developed nations.

[SimoFly]

Originally Posted by flyTheBigFatLady

if you try to go to the dessert to fly the 380 I can promise you are far away from that first of all
secondly going to the desert because of the 380 is the complete wrong approach - the desert might not be for you even you fly the 380 after all
thirdly even in ek the 380 is a dead fleet. Some off the airplanes date back to 2005 they are going to be old with no replacement. They will start vanishing in a few years to come, solving the crewing issue with the 350. it might look attractive now but that’s gonna change, as ek is constantly changing their targets and efforts.

many of the ek Oldtimers have seen how the transfer worked from 330/340 to 380 and my guess is the same will happen from 380 to 350 with same level of acknowledgment

good luck with your attempt

older a380 in the fleet we have dates back 2010 if I am not mistaken.
ITA offered me 3.5/4k a month to relocate to FCO flying the a320, EK package is almost 3 times that including all the extras.
Every company has its own problems, even the majors in Europe. with that being said for me EK works well for now, let's see what RIA has to offer.

[Youwish]

Originally Posted by SimoFly

Qbix, I am not in EK for very long but since arriving here I didnt receive any bad treatment form locals nor from arabs in general yet again every now and then I hear complaints about them in this forum and in the flight deck. I come from Italy, far from being a more organized and civil place. Also, if my compatriots behaved a bit better away from home I would not hear constantly "Italians always......". The issues I had in EK are all with badly educated frustrated expats, particularly Brits and Aussie, that is my experience. Regarding your comment on pilots from third world countries, I could not disagree more, I think there are many well trained and prepared individuals from not so developed nations.

you didn’t understand what he wrote.
the meaning was : if you want pilots from countries where the wages are already high, you need to pay even more, otherwise why leaving your home, your pizzas.. for LESS.
if you want pilots from other places, where you struggle to even identify if they have a legal license, you’ll find plenty of them and good luck!
You said you haven’t been long in EK but you write like you know it all. Good luck

[TBL Warrior]

Originally Posted by Youwish

You said you haven’t been long in EK but you write like you know it all. Good luck

I tend to agree, and I’d also highlight that Simo likely hasn’t been to Riyadh either, yet still feels entitled to offer an opinion on a topic they clearly lack the experience to do so.

The Austronauts are going to eat this guy alive.

[kungfu panda]

Originally Posted by ba77w

When I initially joined Saudi Airlines, I was based in Jeddah and later requested to transfer to the RUH base. The airline did not force me to make this decision, as I am originally from Riyadh. It is important to note that not all local pilots at Saudi Airlines are from Jeddah; a significant number of pilots are from Riyadh and the eastern provinces as well. For those from the eastern province, it is natural that they would prefer to be based in Riyadh due to its proximity to their homes.



While it is true that not every local employee at Saudia would be willing to relocate to Riyadh, there are certainly many who would be interested in joining Riyadh Air, both captains and first officers. Additionally, experienced local captains may opt for early retirement to receive a significant portion of their pension and a double salary with RIA.



It is a misconception to believe that Riyadh Air was established because local employees at Saudi Airlines were unwilling to move to Riyadh. If the government wished to relocate Saudia to Riyadh, it could have done so without regard to employee preferences, as seen with the Saudi aviation authority (GACA). Riyadh Air was created to transition from multiple base operations to a single base operation. The cost of moving a 79-year-old airline from Jeddah to Riyadh would be significantly greater than launching a new airline.



It is common in Saudi Arabia for individuals to move from their hometowns in pursuit of employment opportunities, as seen in various sectors such as government, military, Aramco, Sabic, and more. I’ve said it before and I will say it angain expats will be needed at Riyadh Air, the proportion of expat in the airline will not be as high as in airlines like Emirates or Qatar Airways.





Fly safe.



Best regards,

You clearly know pretty well what you're talking about, so I guess that you're an employee of Saudia, as you say. But your post isn't entirely accurate. The Saudi government wanted originally to set up a large Saudia base in Riyadh and Saudia Pilots were positively encouraged to take the Riyadh base. It was totally without success. Even Saudi guys whose family came originally from Riyadh/Eastern provinces refused to move from the Jeddah base. It was like a well orchestrated Union move to stop a Riyadh base from happening.
In the end Riyadh has a very small Saudia base made up of some Saudi's and the expats who were all moved to Riyadh by force.

In my opinion. It's going to be tough to get the required numbers of expats to come to Riyadh for Riyadh Air. I know that they can get "Pilots". That's not what they want, they want highly experienced B777/B787 Captains, who come from well recognised high quality Airlines, generally flag carriers.

[kungfu panda]

Another point. I was involved in recruiting Pilots for a Middle Eastern Airline about 12 years ago. I would approach qualified Pilots who, we believed, met our requirements and were from recently defunct Airlines. I can tell you that from 180 CV's that I received, we ended with 3 Captains on the line.

These guys needed a job and met the requirements. Yet getting them out to the Middle East, past the document checks, through the training and into the seat was a phenomenal challenge.

[ba77w]

Originally Posted by kungfu panda

You clearly know pretty well what you're talking about, so I guess that you're an employee of Saudia, as you say. But your post isn't entirely accurate. The Saudi government wanted originally to set up a large Saudia base in Riyadh and Saudia Pilots were positively encouraged to take the Riyadh base. It was totally without success. Even Saudi guys whose family came originally from Riyadh/Eastern provinces refused to move from the Jeddah base. It was like a well orchestrated Union move to stop a Riyadh base from happening.
In the end Riyadh has a very small Saudia base made up of some Saudi's and the expats who were all moved to Riyadh by force.

In my opinion. It's going to be tough to get the required numbers of expats to come to Riyadh for Riyadh Air. I know that they can get "Pilots". That's not what they want, they want highly experienced B777/B787 Captains, who come from well recognised high quality Airlines, generally flag carriers.

Hello Kung Fu Panda,

I realize that my previous response may have lacked some detail. I was intentionally being broad, as providing specifics for everything would require a lengthy explanation. Let me provide more details, as you and I are actually in agreement and will ultimately reach the same conclusion.

The government initially planned to move Saudia from Jeddah to Riyadh, which I previously acknowledged. However, I believe that this move would be just as costly as starting a new airline. If the government is truly committed to relocating the airline, they have the resources to do so, just like how they handled GACA. It is absurd to suggest that Riyadh Air was created because Saudia pilots were hesitant to move to Riyadh. If Saudia needs to relocate its pilots, they have the ability to do so, trust me .

I completely agree with you that Pilots from Riyadh/eastern province were opposed to the opening of a base in Riyadh. They would prefer to commute to and from Jeddah instead. The reason for this reluctance is due to the potential 10-15% pay cut in their salaries, stemming from the loss of expense (time away from base) and possible reduction in credit hours as well. Prior to the opening of a base in Riyadh, these pilots would typically bid for and trade their entire month with Riyadh pairings/ Dammam pairings (eastern province pilots) to get paid while sleeping at home, neat huh..

I could be wrong, but I think the challenges of hiring experienced expat pilots could be resolved by offering them a 20/10 or a descent commuting contract. I know many captains on B777 and B787 aircraft are considering early retirement to join RIA due to the current changes in Saudia. I've also heard that Riyadh Air has recruited some IP and check airmen from SAUDIA.

[Sisiphos]

ba77,

enjoy reading your posts.

Can you enlighten us about life in general in Saudia? I guess we all know the stereotypes, what do you make of them, how much is true, what do foreigners maybe don't see or appreciate, what do you like/ don't like? Also, are there major differences between cities, eg Ryhad and Jedda? What is in general the percentage of expat pilots at Saudi based airlines?

Best rgds

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by ba77w

I could be wrong, but I think the challenges of hiring experienced expat pilots could be resolved by offering them a 20/10 or a descent commuting contract.

FWIW 20:10 is hardly survivable beyond 4 years of such an employment pattern. A general comment based on lived and observed experience, I claim no knowledge or wisdom on the key topics duly discussed here.

Although one idea is hard to resist: If you want to build and run a large-scale airline (50+ A/C), solving the crewing puzzle properly will make or break the whole business plan. And nobody seems to ever get it perfectly right. For sure sourcing locally is impossible, and for most countries even sourcing nationally is much perilous. And while we like to think of our jobs foremost (for which the cost is enormous), yet for the long-haul case the sheer amount of CC is beyond imagination.

Stay safe and happy landings everyone,
Merry Christmas

[TBL Warrior]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

And while we like to think of our jobs foremost (for which the cost is enormous), yet for the long-haul case the sheer amount of CC is beyond imagination.

That's an interesting point. From my experience of over a decade in the UAE, I’ve never once encountered a single Emirati cabin crew member. That being said it’s not uncommon for the lower soci-economic Gulf states to have local Cabin crew Oman Air, Gulf air etc. However I can only assume that RIA will follow a similar approach to the UAE relying exclusively on expat cabin crew Additionally I think gender restrictions apply for the KSA airlines, as I’m yet to see a female Purser on a Saudi aircraft. Thus, while there may be a significant demand for expat cabin crew, the same might not apply to pilots, especially with this sexy option to "retire early" by joining RIA and securing double retirement pay for locals, the need for expat pilots could be much lower than we are all imagining.

[ba77w]

Originally Posted by Sisiphos

ba77,

enjoy reading your posts.

Can you enlighten us about life in general in Saudia? I guess we all know the stereotypes, what do you make of them, how much is true, what do foreigners maybe don't see or appreciate, what do you like/ don't like? Also, are there major differences between cities, eg Ryhad and Jedda? What is in general the percentage of expat pilots at Saudi based airlines?

Best rgds

This is a highly subjective matter with answers that may differ from person to person. It is important to note that Saudi Arabia has undergone significant changes over the past decade, resulting in a positive transformation. While I could provide a list of positive aspects that may encourage individuals to consider living in Saudi Arabia, others may offer contrasting opinions that dissuade individuals from coming here. I highly recommend visiting Saudi Arabia to personally observe and experience the country firsthand, rather than allowing stereotypes and misconceptions to influence your perception. Ultimately, individuals' opinions on Saudi Arabia may vary, as it is a matter of personal perspective.

When it comes to expat pilots in Saudi Arabia, the percentage of expat captains in SAUDIA ranges from 25-30%, most of whom are based in Riyadh. There are currently no expat first officers in SAUDIA. Flynas also has no expat first officers, and while I am not certain about their percentage of expat captains, I suspect it is less than 40-50%. Flyadeal is the only airline in the kingdom with a significant number of expat captains, but with Saudisation policies in place, this is expected to change in the long term. Before COVID, there were very few local first officers, but now there are many as the company undergoes localization.

I am completely certain that there will be a demand for expat pilots at Riyadh Air, especially for captains. However, it is important to understand that the ratio of expats to locals will not be as high as at Emirates, Qatar, or Etihad. The number of expats will be significantly lower in the long term, as Riyadh Air will eventually prioritize Saudization, as is the case with other airlines in the country. While Riyadh Air may initially hire a large number of expats, this will likely only be for a period of 3-4 years before transitioning to a more local workforce.

After reading the comments made by some expats on this forum regarding local pilots, I am troubled by their displays of arrogance and condescension. It appears that these individuals may be making such comments in an attempt to validate their own existence and assert that they are the sole qualified candidates for the jobs. However, I can’t pass judgment about them without understanding the specific conditions of the airline they work for or the skills of the local pilots they work with, either in the Gulf region or abroad. SAUDIA, for example, stands apart from other carriers in the gulf with its 80-year history and highly skilled local pilots, training captains, examiners, and sim instructors (some of whom are in their 70s for god sake’s). Believing that there are no qualified local pilots for the job and thinking that sourcing locally is impossible is not only ignorant, but also incorrect. Those who have this mindset will be surprised for sure.

[Sisiphos]

Great post, thank you. Unfortunately there are indeed a number of individuals in our industry who believe in their superior qualities. Could be a byproduct of the rapid change of the market and subsequent fear of replacement.

It is an interesting thought that expats might not see a long career at Ryhad Air and basically are hired to train their local replacement. Unless they become huge probably best suited for older candidates.

[ba77w]

Originally Posted by Sisiphos

Great post, thank you. Unfortunately there are indeed a number of individuals in our industry who believe in their superior qualities. Could be a byproduct of the rapid change of the market and subsequent fear of replacement.

It is an interesting thought that expats might not see a long career at Ryhad Air and basically are hired to train their local replacement. Unless they become huge probably best suited for older candidates.

Expats pilots, especially captains and instructors at Riyadh Air, are likely to have a long career, but I have doubts about first officers. The number of expats in Saudi Arabia may not be as high as in countries like UAE and Qatar. This is understandable when you consider the population statistics - UAE has 9.5 million people with only 11.5% being local Emirati, while Saudi Arabia has 37 million people with 40% being foreigners.