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Qatar/Doha vs Emirates/Dubai (life and work)

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Qatar/Doha vs Emirates/Dubai (life and work)

Old 11th Jun 2022, 02:47
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Get your command, enjoy Riga for 3 years and pack your bags for a nice DEC job in SE Asia.

This time and the next year it's still crap. For the rest go check Airbus Global Market Forecast 22-40, published recently. DaNang beaches await...
I have spent most of my flying career in these areas you mention, and found out that most of the pilots here still are miserable, leave for greener pastures (oh boy, when they realize what they have done!!), and are unable to stop seeing the glass half empty. As Tom hast just said, "it is not the airplane, it is the pilot".

The OP is on another league, he knows where his happiness is, and that is something that most of us should learn from. Let him be!

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Old 11th Jun 2022, 08:03
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I'm appreciating all the comments really.

I know that the happiest career would always be at a money losing, government pampered legacy with a rock solid contract, protected by an agreement set in stone, back home and 30 years ago. Like a few here have understood, I'm trying to find the sweet spot between the experiences/happiness and the money/stripes. I used to fly a bigger cargo jet. It was alright but it was too far into the opposite end. I was flying barely 30-40h and the salary wasn't great but it was enough. It was a small operator it felt like a family. But there was no "magic" to it. Most of the people working where already back from the adventures. They were working there just as a career closing episode, basically waiting to retire. Same night flights and back home every day as if I hadn't been anywhere.

There are those for whom this would be a perfect package. There are people who, as long as their work doesn't bother them too much and pays good enough, they'll be happy. It's a valid position. For them, work is that thing they do purely for money to enjoy while off work. The more money they make and the quicker, the better. So they go to the ME, they hold their breath while they save money and when they can't take it anymore, they'll run away hopefully with full pockets, ready to take that 30h captain job in an old learjet or a rusty cargo converted -400. Call me naive but many years after I started flying I'm still looking for that magic as I was growing up wanting to be a pilot (And I'm not 30 anymore...). I don't think that's gonna change in the near future and I don't think I'm gonna find it at any low cost short haul European.

For me it's really not like that. Work is a huge contributor to my happiness. I need to look forward to go to work. If I have a 2 hour flight and back to some European city where the only "magical moment" will be to say hello to the dispatcher in the local language and it'll just be like driving a bus there and back. Work feels just like a remunerated disturbance of my time off. Nothing to look forward to. On the other hand, if I'm at home on sby and they call me for a 9 day BKK SYD AKL, I'd be excited. I know it will be an immensely fatiguing week, for sure, but I will look forward to the experiences. I'll meet people, I'll eat out, I'll take walks and eat my breakfast at Whalebridge and in Auckland I'll spend the day on a bicycle with some of the crew like we used to do every time. I know Qatar would also offer me that experience during layovers but I'm starting to understand that my days off in Doha would not be as enjoyable as in Dubai and I would again be invaded by the need to commute back home on every chance like I do now. So my concern has shifted. Is delaying command worth it only to go to a city/work where I'd be looking forward to go to work and enjoying it in a way that being tired would not make me feel miserable? Would the fourth stripe immediately make me feel less miserable and to start loving my job again? I'm good at FO'ing. I'm easy to fly with and I've never had a bad flight even with the captains that nobody enjoys flying with so command for me only means more money, not a change of experiences. Is it better to be a miserable captain feeling like a bus driver or a happy first officer feeling like a true airline pilot... I guess nobody can answer that.

Last edited by Spongeboeing; 11th Jun 2022 at 10:10.
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Old 11th Jun 2022, 09:24
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As you describe, later in the career it boils down to a simple equation

(cash-brought-home X family-days) / days on duty.

The formula may miss some square roots, logarithms or exponents, but well noted it does NOT include what the job is like or any soft effects. And is pretty valid for comparing different paths one against another - later in the career.

You are not there yet, nor were others at your (st)age.

Iggy pressed the big red button with 'could not stop themselves from seening the glass half-empty'. That reveals the big truth, cheesy as it sounds, that happiness comes from within.

Imagine a pilot who has 160 days of pure family time with annual net 250k and is still consumed irritated? What other job or lifestyle could fix that? (*)

I've met the happy ones with a decade under their belt but truly enough I did not speak to those who ran away after 3 years or even ejected from their contract. And the ratio is about 1:4!

(*) Actually, any job or no job at all did it for the escapees, who desperately sought relief from mental and emotional purgatory.

I won't praise you for your zen-like clarity of mind, having sensed (trough double translation probably) trace amounts of shiny longhaul metal syndrome. Not really diluted by the last post.

But does it matter? Absolutely not. If you need bigass metal for stop hating being stuck on a crossroad between two nowheres, you owe to yourself, parents, future spouse and the creator himself to go and do it!

Everybody plays their cards differently but you know the game well enough. All-in, have a blast and feel good about what you decided to do if that is your heart's calling. Following your heart is the easy part, understanding it is what gets complex.

That will define your mental health.

My previous post is not contradictory, only filling some perceived holes in the narrative. But then again, taking an informed choice to get what you want is not the problem, understanding the need itself is.

Loop back to the original question. Despite that being a relayed experience, not personal, there seem to be 3 patterns with lads happier in QR than EK
- genuinely liking the place better to Dubai
- got their deep wish fulfilled by ejecting from EK
- smiling at the money bucket filling the fastest no matter what.

For the moment, you seem to describe yourself being the opposite on all three accounts.

Sure, event the most beneficial solution will have its cost to pay and never be returned.



Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Jun 2022 at 09:36.
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Old 11th Jun 2022, 09:36
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
As you describe, later in the career it boils down to a simple equation

(cash-brought-home X family-days) / days on duty.

The formula may miss some square roots, logarithms or exponents, but well noted it does NOT include what the job is like or any soft effects. And is pretty valid for comparing different paths one agains another - later in the career.

You are not there yet, nor were others at your (st)age.
Yeah... I'm almost 40. Should I be worried that I'm still looking for happiness from work rather than looking at work as a means to reach happiness outside of work? Maybe there's something wrong with me and I'm looking an idealized airline life that doesn't exist anywhere anymore. The rest of what you wrote, very appreciated. Interesting comments about the shiny longhaul metal syndrome I obviously do have and can't hide. For sure this'll make me think. For now I will keep both applications (QR and EK) but I wouldn't drop everything and leave to QR until I'm sure EK are done calling Boeing people for the time being as it seems.

Last edited by Spongeboeing; 11th Jun 2022 at 09:52.
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Old 11th Jun 2022, 10:01
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Originally Posted by Spongeboeing View Post
Yeah... I'm almost 40. Should I be worried that I'm still looking for happiness from work rather than at work as a means to reach happiness outside of work? Maybe there's something wrong with me and I'm looking for a love of aviation that doesn't exist anywhere anymore.
Don't f**Ing put your self down! Sorry for being more directly personal than expected here. It is necessary.

OK, not perfectly what I said. Career fulfillment is important, it's captains only to whom the on-the-job aspiration gets truly dissolved. Despite the age and personal maturity, the career midpoint lies still ahead.

My key point, also to equalise the cold technical first post, was typed below the part you quoted.

If your hunger is leaving gloomy EE and finally getting a stable, high-value proper job, there is not other good choice but to do it.

​​​​​The people who look for happiness outside work are those who reached theirs on the job already, and are now moving beyond.

They are no different in their thinking, feeling or motivation than you. Only now aim for a different goal, as their life's fulfillment target has shifted and they came to understand that. (Which can be a very ugly experience also known as mid-life crisis BTW ​​​​​​) They are just looking for satisfaction, same as anyone primally, your present situation included.

Different nutrition for different patients.

​​​​​Know your diagnosis and heal your own ache, grow a smile on your face and share that inner love to others. Your glass will remain forever half full.


​​​​​








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Old 11th Jun 2022, 10:15
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
​​​​​The people who look for happiness outside work are those who reached theirs on the job already, and are now moving beyond.
​​​​​

Thanks
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Old 11th Jun 2022, 10:23
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[QUOTE=Spongeboeing;11244399] syndrome I obviously do have and can't hide. For sure this'll make me think. [/QUOTE] The top class neurosurgeons, who operate brains on open skull, sure do their job because they wanted to do exactly that. Achieving big is not a shame.

Do ask, however, how many nights in own bed are attached to the ULR duty life.







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Old 11th Jun 2022, 10:30
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Sponge, you are approaching 40 and already worked in DXB from 2005-08. Something about you doesn't add up eh.
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Old 11th Jun 2022, 11:06
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Not sure he said to have worked as a (LH) pilot in UAE before.
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Old 12th Jun 2022, 10:19
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Ah ! Been there, done that. 7 years ago, at 33 I was at your shoes. I left my narrow body command ( did not 1000hrs pic) for a widebody middle east right seat job. Made twice or at times thrice the money than that narrow body job back home. Travelled the world, fulfilled my dreams. It was 5 awesome years until the coivd hit us hard. I do not regret my decision, because the company I left, treated me/us like sh)t. I did want to give them back. And I am glad I could do it. Not everyone eats s&it to get command, only some do. Looking back, Yes logging that one or two thousand pic hrs would have been nice but hell ya, even capts with 1000s of widebody jet PIC are right now sitting at home with no jobs. And I wouldn't bought German sports car that ran on cheap fuel, and wouldn't have did all that international travel when my kids didn't go to school and when my wife wasn't working. I cant do it now, as they all are busy. So no regrets. Everything in life happens for a reason.

Now looking at your case, at 40 say if you join Qatar, and they fire you after 5 years as FO, you'll be ineligible for most of the FO jobs. Like all the wisemen's advice here, its always better to get left seat and shift from left seat at career perspective. 3 years from now you will be eligible for Qatar DEC job, or EK DEC (as they are getting 787s too) if middle east is the only place you want. There is going to be heavy shortage of captains in this region in the coming years.

Or If you are adamant on going now, log your 1000PIC, pay your bond and join Emirates, that if you clear the assessment. Emirates and Dubai are way better than QR with a little compromise.
Else take that huge risk of joining QR, many are happy in Qatar too. You can always leave during probation or in 3 years if you don't like. But leave your current LOCO on good terms.

Adios !
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Old 12th Jun 2022, 11:24
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Originally Posted by fighterkok View Post
Sponge, you are approaching 40 and already worked in DXB from 2005-08. Something about you doesn't add up eh.
I was cabin crew. Came back to Europe to finish up my pilot training and started working as a pilot. I started late and I know command should be my priority given my relatively low hours/age ratio but I'm just not feeling it. I would love to be a captain don't get me wrong, but I feel I would be happier as an FO for a few more years at a company that gives me some level of professional fulfilment and more memorable experiences at work than what European low cost short hauler can offer. I'm not alone in this as basically 50% of my colleagues are also considering a move to the ME (and many already got the job). The truth is that most of them are in their early 30s or younger and their motivations are completely different than mine. I'm sure many of them, on arrival to Dubai, the first thing to do will be to get a Maserati loan or something stupid like that. That's not what I'm looking for which makes me feel that my expectations are more realistic and "mature".

Last edited by Spongeboeing; 12th Jun 2022 at 11:40.
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Old 12th Jun 2022, 13:38
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What is wrong with a long term career at NetJets? Genuine question... Personal profile sounds like a nice fit.

You do understand the lifestyle available upon arrival will be starkly different from that seen 15 years ago, maybe even comparing the CC then to a present day FO. (at the absence of schoolgoing offsprings on both sides)

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Old 12th Jun 2022, 19:34
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Again it’s subjective.I am not aware of your region specific market info. In my case, from where I come, that 1000 pic makes a big difference. May be not in your or sponge’s-case. Some guys in ME never make it command and retire as FO. In that case having flown 1000 pic will give a sense of satisfaction at the time of retirement.



Originally Posted by de fumo in flammam View Post
And what with the "just get the command time"? To what purpose?

It's what I did, and I think it's the worst thing I could have done, spending the rest of my career trying to find airlines which would take me direct as a Captain, most of them bottom of the barrel, whilst turning down RHS at flag carriers. Unless that's your career plan, 1000 hours narrow body command is worse than useless.
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Old 12th Jun 2022, 19:57
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Originally Posted by de fumo in flammam View Post
And what with the "just get the command time"? To what purpose?

It's what I did in my twenties, and I think it's the worst thing I could have done, spending the rest of my career trying to find airlines which would take me direct as a Captain, most of them bottom of the barrel, start ups, or financially sailing close to the wind, whilst turning down RHS at flag carriers. Unless that's your career plan, 1000 hours narrow body command is worse than useless.
Exactly what I have seen from the industry. Ok you get command 1000PIC most jobs DEC are usually pretty crap. I know a couple of guys went EK 2014/2015 with around 4K hrs 737. Both are now LHS. Ok get command get 1-2k HRS LHS. No guarantee EK will take you LHS in the future and you still have to pass EK LHS assessment which is meant to be ninja style. They usually like people with way more P1 time
anyway so what you get more P1 when you could have just gone to EK earlier anyway.
From what I heard QR is same as well. I don’t know anyone that’s gone to QR LHS with less than 2k P1. Soooooo same as EK why not just go there anyway?

Yes people will say I know FOs who been at EK/QR for like 10 years still waiting for command blah blah but I would say usually there is a reason for this.

Yes it is a hard decision. You could go EK/QR and never make command for multiple reasons.

Can’t predict the future.

I’m not far off 40 either, last few years with all this COVID etc has made me look at life differently. Yeah command would be great at some point but ideally I want to be at an airline that doesn’t have multiple bases they can send you to at a moments notice with the promise of, “we will get you to your base in 6 months” (yeah ok) or is about to go bankrupt in 5 mins.
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Old 13th Jun 2022, 03:17
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Choosing EK/QR right seat at 20s or even early 30s is prudent. But at 40 one has to tread carefully. It’s a lot of risk, as you are at their mercy for career progression. And downturn in aviation happens every 5 to 7 years. If all goes well, no sweat but we are only talking about the next economic recession or world war or a pandemic etc. They won’t think twice to fire. Why do you think they are always hiring in spite of not having a phenomenal growth in fleet size. With 2k command time you’ll be eligible for most of the WB command jobs anyways.
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Old 13th Jun 2022, 05:44
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Originally Posted by 777JockeyIN View Post
Choosing EK/QR right seat at 20s or even early 30s is prudent. But at 40 one has to tread carefully. It’s a lot of risk, as you are at their mercy for career progression. And downturn in aviation happens every 5 to 7 years. If all goes well, no sweat but we are only talking about the next economic recession or world war or a pandemic etc. They won’t think twice to fire. Why do you think they are always hiring in spite of not having a phenomenal growth in fleet size. With 2k command time you’ll be eligible for most of the WB command jobs anyways.
If Emirates fires you because of economic conditions, your 2k command time is worthless anyway. Nobody will be hiring....
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Old 13th Jun 2022, 07:37
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Hope this explains it all…

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Old 13th Jun 2022, 07:50
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I bet those results are not from last year.....
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Old 13th Jun 2022, 08:53
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Originally Posted by 777JockeyIN View Post
Hope this explains it all…
Those are all brokers. Not ideal.
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Old 13th Jun 2022, 11:31
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Originally Posted by 777JockeyIN View Post

Hope this explains it all…

Proves my point exactly. A320 P1 great but you end up going through recruiters ending up at some really crappy places. I heard first hand of some really horror stories. The pay is advertised as high for a reason. I also bet many of those jobs will be doubled up. When I first got made redundant I have 3 recruiters call me for the same job.

Searching B777 specifically is a bit vague. I have a mate who’s FO 737, 777/787 rated. (Never flew 787). He was out of work for only 6 months and had interviews for 737/757/777 and 747 all Europe based. Offered jobs on all of them. Take your pick.
A320 Command unlikely to go straight to A330/340/350 as you have no LH experience.
Op would have SH and LH experience.
COVID proved this with cargo going crazy. Hence my mate being offered jobs left right and centre. SH and LH experience.

Last edited by AIMINGHIGH123; 13th Jun 2022 at 12:12.
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