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Saudiís dirty game against its pilots

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Saudiís dirty game against its pilots

Old 18th Aug 2020, 13:58
  #141 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 0
Metro trash what you saying is not based on facts
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 15:37
  #142 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Mecca
Posts: 34
I know at least 18-19 Ex Saudi captains who were given less than 24 hours ‘notice’ for their termination letters to be emailed to them and who on final settlement were shortchanged by an average of 40 percent of the monies that they were duly owed to them.
One way or another, this airline gets you. And it always seems to get you when you’re at your weakest. A sign of a coward? Maybe. A sign of a greedy corrupt system taking advantage of your current weakness. Positively!
If your final settlement is expected to be say 300K and your are ‘offered’ 200K, what do you do …????!!!
Just got to hear that all the UPL candidates above 55 will be terminated 2 months before their UPL period expires. Thus staying legal and having had their cake too.
Lots of legal documents gonna be slapped on this excuse of a GM’s desk very soon !!
Lucifer786 is online now  
Old 18th Aug 2020, 16:38
  #143 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middle East
Posts: 338
Can't speak to the notice period, the Capts I know that did not take UPL were all given 2 months notice. They are using Force Majeure, Covid certainly qualifies as a Force Majeure by any definition.
End of service (EOS) is paid out at 3 different rates. This is by Saudi law. It is also not commonly known but has been the same way for 20+ years.
0-5 years of service = 1/3 EOS
5-10 years of service = 2/3 EOS
10+ years = Full EOS
Everyone I knew that had 5+ years were paid exactly or more than expected.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 18:13
  #144 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middle East
Posts: 338
I admit I know of the time frame given to choose UPL or Termination. Everyone I know terminated was given 2 months. I know of ZERO given less.

I also know that 7 year Capt would be paid around 200k EOS. That is with full EOS paid. I also know that there are only a handful of people with more than 10 years so I can't see very many getting to the 300+ mark.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 18:32
  #145 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Mecca
Posts: 34
The 300k and 200k was simply being used as an example metro. Not actual figures. But pilots getting paid 40-45% less than what they expected is real !
And ALL the ones who were given 2 months notice for termination were given only 24 hours to decide on termination or on NPL.
About 10 pilots thus terminated and stuck out of kingdom were not even paid their basic salaries for the 2 months they served legally.
Fact sometime IS stranger than fiction. Especially here in SAUDIA.
Lucifer786 is online now  
Old 18th Aug 2020, 19:18
  #146 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middle East
Posts: 338
I hear you. Painful I know, my point is that I have not personally seen someone lose on what they were actually owed. I have seen MANY that think they were owed more, expectations were often higher than reality. I know of examples of guys being over-paid during service and then losing money on exit as it was reclaimed.

I also believe that rumour over here is stranger that fact and fiction combined.

When Covid shut the world down it was expected to get messy. I am simply not a fan of publicly slagging any employer based on rumours.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 21:26
  #147 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10
get what you’re saying, but let’s not pretend that our western countries are high and mighty. Some of the biggest names in western aviation have used this as an opportunity to tear up contractual terms and conditions at will and relegate long serving employees to the scrap heap..... despite the contracts they all held.

I know that everyone feels bad when it happens to them, but expats would be first to go in any airline in any country. What government could justify letting expats stay while firing locals.

every expat knows that when you go to the Middle East you are always expendable and always at risk of being thrown on the scrap heap at short notice...... but that’s the price you pay for the quick succession and tax free money!
Themeatfleet is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2020, 01:46
  #148 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Muscat
Posts: 24
Couldn't have put it any better..
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 09:30
  #149 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 328
Themeatfleet & Boembus : exactly. Finally got there ! And as professional "commercial" pilots we will always continue to do that in order to put food on the table.Offered B747 twice with Saudia in my career. IN GF, considered it again when things looked grim. I could never justify family life in a Saudi ex-pat compound but quite liked the deal on all three occasions.

Settled in GF for nearly 20years but finally booted out with no notice after a bit of a battle. Had to fight hard for three month's "in lieu" of notice and saw lots of reductions by messing about with other terms.

But we, surely , know what we are signing up for on day one eh ?

Went off to the City Mall, bought myself my long-service watch, looked in the mirror and thanked myself ,climbed into my repatriation flight (sub-load in practice, of course) and left.

Given all events, would do it all again in the same circumstances. That is why, according to our profession, we fly for " Hire or reward". Purely commercial on both sides of the table.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 15:41
  #150 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10

Absolutely!! My seven years were quite rewarding, and I left on my own terms. Regardless of the good and bad, I would still go back again, but would always do so mindful of how quickly it can end.

ultimately, the Middle East and it’s people provide countless expats an opportunity to work and earn at standards well above their home countries. When it all turns bad it’s easy to let racism take hold and aim everything at the locals.... but let’s remember, this is the first time that major middle eastern airlines have ever laid off crew en masse. And they are doing so along with every other airline in the world.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 07:48
  #151 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 285
True Themeatfleet in regards to a financial rewarding place but disagree with your racism comment. I was fortunate to be under contract with a non-middle eastern country working in the middle east. Therefore any breach of contract could be resolved in a place that looked at the law and not other aspect s for a resolution. I have seen first hand other expats under contract to a local company that has ended in tears due the company not honoring the contract with this nothing to do with corona virus and years ago. You may call it racist to point out that a) if you are not a local you are treated differently and b) a very different mindset to a logical, reasonable, and fair treatment of non-local employee’s.
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 18:49
  #152 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: World
Posts: 1
Thank You Saudia

Expat first officer here, hired during the 2015 hiring boom. The training was hard but fair. The housing situation wasnít perfect but Saudia always made sure that we were comfortable. Once released my salary was always higher than I expected.

The move to Riyadh was messy but the housing in Riyadh was great. Saudia always treated me fairly to the last day. On the last day I was given every cent owed to me and was told that I could stay in the house as long as I needed to make it home safely.

As an expat I didnít force Saudia to hire me. I didnít take anyoneís job, Saudis hired me and Saudis decided not to renew my contract. Donít blame the foreigners for taking your jobs.

For the expats complaining, Saudia honored our contracts. The Captains were under no obligation to take UPL, they couldíve taken their two month notice and left (like some did). If anything the UPL was a blessing, Saudia could have easily given everyone two month notice.

Working with Saudia wasnít perfect but nothing is. I have hung up my wings and have joined the family business but I will remember Saudia with many happy memories. Iím embarrassed to see all the hate in here coming from both sides. Iím sure Iíve flown with many of you guys and itís sad that you need anonymity to show your true colors.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 09:05
  #153 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 531
"you need anonymnity to show your true colours " ; So says "Bahonkadonks " located in the "world".........gotta larf eh ?..............
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 09:35
  #154 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Mini KSA
Posts: 141

You may rename now Stockholm syndrome as saudi syndrome (when applied for professional relations).

Last edited by Python27; 10th Sep 2020 at 10:50.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 10:15
  #155 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: terra firma
Posts: 107
One fundamental difference exists between Saudi and European/US airline pilot policies. Saudi (and perhaps certain other ME carriers) are dismissing pilots who are not their own nationals. This simply does not take place in so-called civilised countries.

My own experiences operating in and out of JED on Hajj flights through the years have not been good, Aside from Saudi ATC favouring local and royal flights without any pretence, the immigration and customs differences in treatment between Saudi and foreign incoming crew were profound and sometimes unpleasant. (Long and unnecessary waits, dismissive and obstructive local officials, bias and sometimes prejudice against foreign people)

However, I was doing a paid job for a foreign carrier, not a Saudi airline. I knew what to expect. Although refusing to fly there would have created a problem with my own employment, so I was not making a choice.

Good luck to the folk now hoping for alternative employment in these troubled times.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 17:42
  #156 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: sydney
Posts: 2
What you say is absolutely incorrect, I worked more than 20 years in Saudia and when I left evey last penny and more was paid to me, nobody shortchanged me, on the contrary they didn't want me to leave but unfortunately I had pressing family issues.

The best years of my flying were spent in Saudia; sure there were ups and downs, sure they were unorganised at times but overall Saudia was very kind to me and I have no complaints or animosity. Even though professionally a very great injustice was done to me by an indivisual and saudias system that was not designed to address such personal biased politics but that could have happened anywhere. You obviously believe in hear say.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 03:09
  #157 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Mecca
Posts: 34
You would then be one of a handful of pilots who have stuck around this hell hole for so long.
Free upgrades and transitions maybe 🤔
Lucifer786 is online now  
Old 23rd Sep 2020, 07:59
  #158 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: sydney
Posts: 2
You sound like one of those disgruntled expats who get flunked during induction process, or perhaps who came for up-grades but that didn't materialise. Once again you are wrong? I wasn't amongst a handful of expatriate pilots who stuck around long years in Saudia I was amongst many of them, the early generation American/European Pilots stuck around in Saudia for over 30 years, even more, their entire flying career was groomed in Saudia and when time came to leave; I have seen tears in their eyes.

one particular American pilot friend of mine told me, that he knew of no other home and his three kids were born in Saudi city and they all keep coming back, he wished Saudia Arabia would gave permanent residency to those retired pilots who wanted to stay back. As for myself I have no complaint against Saudia, One of my friends who is still in Saudia for last 33 years is coming up for retirement, I would call him the last of the old Expat pilots generation coming to a close, he also is leaving with a heavy heart, It may be a hell hole for you? but for the like of him and me it was the best Airline in the world, but then again we are Muslim Expatriate pilots and for us Saudia Arabis has two of our sacred most holy places and that has its own attraction and dynamic. Good day and Salam
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 15:02
  #159 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: terra firma
Posts: 107
Sal 380, your response to me was quite disrespectful. I was not incorrect, as you so glibly stated. I was reporting my own experiences, in the main, and reporting them honestly. Your response to Lucifer 786 was also impolite, presumably because you were annoyed.

Irrespective of your manners, would you not consider a country where your own religious beliefs were suppressed and could not be practiced some sort of hellhole? Especially if it also prohibited you from enjoying a customary glass of wine or a chilled beer in public. Anyway, this is going off-thread, so I'll stop there. Saudi Arabia, and Saudia are not everyone's cup of tea. And operating professionally in and out of JED has been an unpleasant business for many of us foreign and non-muslim pilots. Clearly not for you and your colleague. Each to his own.

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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 18:22
  #160 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ex-Brisvegas
Posts: 217
Originally Posted by MissChief View Post
One fundamental difference exists between Saudi and European/US airline pilot policies. Saudi (and perhaps certain other ME carriers) are dismissing pilots who are not their own nationals. This simply does not take place in so-called civilised countries.
US airlines primarily hires Americans and Green Card holders so technically they are all locals. So are European airlines (except Norwegian probably, or back in Air Atlanta Icelandic days).

So Air Japan letting go of all foreigners and Korean Air / Asiana not renewing contracts foreigners equate to Japan and Korea being uncivilized?

Apples and oranges.
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