Pilots' fatigue investigation
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OK it's official now - even the BBC agrees.....
Last edited by Plank Cap; 12th Apr 2016 at 13:49.
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@ Paula Slier and other journalists, please check out Clive Irving's recent article on thedailybeast.com, closely related to the subject. Link and Pprune discussion here:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...onal-news.html
Thanks for running the story.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...onal-news.html
Thanks for running the story.
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Latest stories on RT
Hi all
Thank to everyone who is in touch.
Please see our latest report airing today at https://www.rt.com/news/339399-emira...tigue-reports/
We've done a series of reports - I have not posted them all here - if you are interested please look at : (or google Flydubia and Emirates / RT (Russia Today)
https://www.rt.com/search/?q=flydubai+
Best,
Paula
Thank to everyone who is in touch.
Please see our latest report airing today at https://www.rt.com/news/339399-emira...tigue-reports/
We've done a series of reports - I have not posted them all here - if you are interested please look at : (or google Flydubia and Emirates / RT (Russia Today)
https://www.rt.com/search/?q=flydubai+
Best,
Paula
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Pilots asleep during turbulence and landing?? Give me a break!! How would this 'senior' know this? The pilots, or one of them anyway, has to unlock the door to let him in, therefore one of them is awake.Total bs!
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The EK rosters are obviously tough, but let's stick with the truth.
Last edited by nakbin330; 13th Apr 2016 at 17:53.
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Pilots asleep during turbulence
But I've never yet woken to find the F/O asleep too! Not sure who this 'crew member' is but it ain't on my flight!
I like the sentiment of the article but as nakbin says - let's stick to the truth!
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As a senior I have seen many-many occasions where we would go into the cockpit and see pilots sleep not on their breaks, but just asleep during critical periods of their flights, like during turbulence, during landing – just seen them fast asleep,” a former flight attendant for the Emirates told RT, recalling fear. “This would be on long haul flights over 10 hours, on flights to many different destinations. We have seen that on regular occurrences.”
He said both pilots were sleeping.
Where?
Keep in mind that this senior probably isn't a native english speaker and that anyone would emphasize in their interview the fact that both pilots were sleeping but this guy didn't do that. He just used plural because he said "many, many occasions". Let's not twist his words.
If you want to be specific or to correct these words you can always give an interview to Ms Paula.
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Nikita81
As a pilot with over 30 years experience, never, ever have I seen someone 'asleep' during landing. Plenty of micro sleeps during descent for sure and once or twice fallen asleep during cruise without briefing or planning on it, but never the actual landing. How would this cabin crew member know unless he was physically in the cockpit during the actual landing anyway? And on 'many, many occasions'? I doubt it.
I'm very supportive of any individual or organisation that can highlight genuine safety concerns or deficiencies within our industry but for this campaign to be truly effective, the information needs to be factual and from credible sources. Whilst some of our cabin crew are indeed extremely knowledgeable about flying itself, aircraft and the pilots duties, the vast majority are not. When a male Egyptian CSV can seriously ask 'have you ever collided with another aircraft in the air before', you know the level of 'expertise' you're dealing with! Professional evidence is one thing, emotive ignorance is quite another.
No doubt you will provide more of your opinion to the contrary.......again.
Harry
As a pilot with over 30 years experience, never, ever have I seen someone 'asleep' during landing. Plenty of micro sleeps during descent for sure and once or twice fallen asleep during cruise without briefing or planning on it, but never the actual landing. How would this cabin crew member know unless he was physically in the cockpit during the actual landing anyway? And on 'many, many occasions'? I doubt it.
I'm very supportive of any individual or organisation that can highlight genuine safety concerns or deficiencies within our industry but for this campaign to be truly effective, the information needs to be factual and from credible sources. Whilst some of our cabin crew are indeed extremely knowledgeable about flying itself, aircraft and the pilots duties, the vast majority are not. When a male Egyptian CSV can seriously ask 'have you ever collided with another aircraft in the air before', you know the level of 'expertise' you're dealing with! Professional evidence is one thing, emotive ignorance is quite another.
No doubt you will provide more of your opinion to the contrary.......again.
Harry
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FTL Limits Busted = Pilots Fatigued, Aircraft Broken and Passengers Dead
When will the industry wake up - why is damage control always so reactive, accepting change only after people end up dead??
It's pretty obvious that individual performance decays with the sort of rostering, flying hours and fatigue management practices that go on throughout the industry, and particularly in the Middle East. We will kill more people in this business as a result of the way it is run, particularly here - it's not a question of if, but when.
Fly Dubai may or may not be the latest fatigue-related accident, time and (maybe) the accident report will tell.
The reality is ladies and gents, that the operators and regulators have shown themselves consistently unwilling, unable and uninterested in combatting the issue. That leaves one entity (excusing the media's valiant attempts) - ourselves. For goodness sake, and for the sake of your passengers and crew, know when to say STOP. Whether it is on a monthly, annual or daily basis, we have to realise that the final protection in the system is us in the flight deck.
It's not right, it's not fair, it's morally and ethically abhorrent, but ultimately we are all gifted the opportunity to save lives in this business...... Sounds dramatic, but we sure have the ability to lose lives by getting it wrong. May God, or whoever your chosen overseer is, give us all the sense (and whatever remaining mental faculties we may have left) to use that gift wisely when the time comes.
It's pretty obvious that individual performance decays with the sort of rostering, flying hours and fatigue management practices that go on throughout the industry, and particularly in the Middle East. We will kill more people in this business as a result of the way it is run, particularly here - it's not a question of if, but when.
Fly Dubai may or may not be the latest fatigue-related accident, time and (maybe) the accident report will tell.
The reality is ladies and gents, that the operators and regulators have shown themselves consistently unwilling, unable and uninterested in combatting the issue. That leaves one entity (excusing the media's valiant attempts) - ourselves. For goodness sake, and for the sake of your passengers and crew, know when to say STOP. Whether it is on a monthly, annual or daily basis, we have to realise that the final protection in the system is us in the flight deck.
It's not right, it's not fair, it's morally and ethically abhorrent, but ultimately we are all gifted the opportunity to save lives in this business...... Sounds dramatic, but we sure have the ability to lose lives by getting it wrong. May God, or whoever your chosen overseer is, give us all the sense (and whatever remaining mental faculties we may have left) to use that gift wisely when the time comes.
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Hello PS123,
Pls verify your facts correctly.
As previously mentioned, how did the person on your video get access to the flight deck, if the so called sleeping pilots did not open the door for him to come in?
Sensationalism is one thing, reporting the truth is your obligation as a journalist worthy of its name.
While I agree that there are issues, let's not just make it sound a lot worse than what they are.
If you embarked in a journey to do a service to the flying community and general population, do it the right way and verify your facts with credible witnesses, cutting down on the ratings generated by sensationalism. Do yourself a favour and don't become a CNN...
All the best.
Pls verify your facts correctly.
As previously mentioned, how did the person on your video get access to the flight deck, if the so called sleeping pilots did not open the door for him to come in?
Sensationalism is one thing, reporting the truth is your obligation as a journalist worthy of its name.
While I agree that there are issues, let's not just make it sound a lot worse than what they are.
If you embarked in a journey to do a service to the flying community and general population, do it the right way and verify your facts with credible witnesses, cutting down on the ratings generated by sensationalism. Do yourself a favour and don't become a CNN...
All the best.
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Strange choice for the first post here, skyrider. Let's not make an elephant from a mouse. That also qualifies as sensationalism, this time from your side.
Steward from the video is not a native English speaker. He probably meant on descent, not on landing. Choosing to criticise one word over everything else that's said makes you more similar to CNN journalist than to a pilot. Or a management troll.
Things are way worse than presented in the video because of the simple fact that not every wrongdoing of EK managers can be mentioned and described there.
All the best.
Steward from the video is not a native English speaker. He probably meant on descent, not on landing. Choosing to criticise one word over everything else that's said makes you more similar to CNN journalist than to a pilot. Or a management troll.
Things are way worse than presented in the video because of the simple fact that not every wrongdoing of EK managers can be mentioned and described there.
All the best.
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I agree EGGY1, but only in cases when people choose a valid argument over exaggeration and hairsplitting, and when they don't criticise an american news station in their first post in a situation where EK has problems with that part of the world.
Sorry, a person in my situation does not have a benefit of trusting people of skyrider's profile. I am dealing with a lot of management trolls. Maybe he will prove me wrong.
Sorry, a person in my situation does not have a benefit of trusting people of skyrider's profile. I am dealing with a lot of management trolls. Maybe he will prove me wrong.
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So the latest tactic is to claim other airlines are doing the same.
Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.
I am also surprised to see Sir Brigade linking Air India Express Mangalore incident to fatigue, when it was concluded as CRM issue where Captain(PF) ignored more experienced (with that tabletop airport)FO's repeated warnings. FO tried to recover but was too late.
Captain took a quick nap at some point during the 3 hour flight which was/is allowed per that CAA regulations.
According to rumor mill, that accident is one of the reasons Indian carriers avoid hiring expat pilots.
Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.
I am also surprised to see Sir Brigade linking Air India Express Mangalore incident to fatigue, when it was concluded as CRM issue where Captain(PF) ignored more experienced (with that tabletop airport)FO's repeated warnings. FO tried to recover but was too late.
Captain took a quick nap at some point during the 3 hour flight which was/is allowed per that CAA regulations.
According to rumor mill, that accident is one of the reasons Indian carriers avoid hiring expat pilots.
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So the latest tactic is to claim other airlines are doing the same.
Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.
I am also surprised to see Sir Brigade linking Air India Express Mangalore incident to fatigue, when it was concluded as CRM issue where Captain(PF) ignored more experienced (with that tabletop airport)FO's repeated warnings. FO tried to recover but was too late.
Captain took a quick nap at some point during the 3 hour flight which was/is allowed per that CAA regulations.
According to rumor mill, that accident is one of the reasons Indian carriers avoid hiring expat pilots.
Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.
I am also surprised to see Sir Brigade linking Air India Express Mangalore incident to fatigue, when it was concluded as CRM issue where Captain(PF) ignored more experienced (with that tabletop airport)FO's repeated warnings. FO tried to recover but was too late.
Captain took a quick nap at some point during the 3 hour flight which was/is allowed per that CAA regulations.
According to rumor mill, that accident is one of the reasons Indian carriers avoid hiring expat pilots.
Pilot error.. fatigue? now thats the Q
short flights long nights
I was not aware US regionals were flying ULR flights across many time zones, I must have missed something.
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Sky7, Do you have roster for AIX812 PIC handy?
Bringing Air India into fatigue discussion is an insult to EK/FZ pilots working extremely hard.
Most AI pilots file written complaint with CAA at 41 hrs. They are so efficient in gaming the system they show up couple of hours late for DEL-LHR and complain AI didn't give 22 hour minimum layover for a 9hr flight.
I think management trolls are throwing AI in the mix to discredit the whole fatigue discussion.
Bringing Air India into fatigue discussion is an insult to EK/FZ pilots working extremely hard.
Most AI pilots file written complaint with CAA at 41 hrs. They are so efficient in gaming the system they show up couple of hours late for DEL-LHR and complain AI didn't give 22 hour minimum layover for a 9hr flight.
I think management trolls are throwing AI in the mix to discredit the whole fatigue discussion.