Pilots' fatigue investigation
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Aluminium shuffler
I support your point that everything going out to the press must be truthful. By the way they check your evidence because they are afraid of missteps.
Court case in Europe? It would be my pleasure to present all the evidence in front of a Western court. (starting to think about a Russian court)
Never heard anything from the company after the WSJ. The last thing they sent me was an altered medical record. More proof.
@Emma. Seriously, Talparc and me one person? Give me a buzz when you're in Munich and I will buy you a beer to chill.
I support your point that everything going out to the press must be truthful. By the way they check your evidence because they are afraid of missteps.
Court case in Europe? It would be my pleasure to present all the evidence in front of a Western court. (starting to think about a Russian court)
Never heard anything from the company after the WSJ. The last thing they sent me was an altered medical record. More proof.
@Emma. Seriously, Talparc and me one person? Give me a buzz when you're in Munich and I will buy you a beer to chill.
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Quote:
Moreover our management would never wish to be seen to be placed with their backs against the wall by their own employees
@ Emma
this is exactly happening, it's just a matter of time
and sorry for the costa stuff
Moreover our management would never wish to be seen to be placed with their backs against the wall by their own employees
@ Emma
this is exactly happening, it's just a matter of time
and sorry for the costa stuff
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Aluminium shuffler
RT is like EK. Both are above laws. Perfect match. I wouldn't trust any western media/journalists at this point. They all are in EK's pocket.
Having said that, at least here in USA there is a discovery process, if EK sues someone EK has to open all its books to defense attorneys. With the group's reputation worldwide every one will have a field day.
Same reason though Sir TC threatened several times, never sued US carriers for their allegations of creative accounting/subsidies ...
Sure they can force a western internet forum to give up user ids.
RT is like EK. Both are above laws. Perfect match. I wouldn't trust any western media/journalists at this point. They all are in EK's pocket.
Having said that, at least here in USA there is a discovery process, if EK sues someone EK has to open all its books to defense attorneys. With the group's reputation worldwide every one will have a field day.
Same reason though Sir TC threatened several times, never sued US carriers for their allegations of creative accounting/subsidies ...
Sure they can force a western internet forum to give up user ids.
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Article in NY Times this morning saying the Russians are now initiating a criminal investigation and quoted a source as saying "chronic fatigue" could be contributory factor - they cited a Russian TV report that has access to data on recorders.
Here is an extract, for some reason cannot coy and paste entire article or link (can anyone?)
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"The channel emphasized that its interpretation of the transcript could not be considered the official version of what had happened.
Flying from Dubai, the plane was not able to land on its first attempt because of heavy rain and wind, and it entered a holding pattern for two hours. On the second landing attempt, the crew decided to pull up and try again, but 40 seconds after beginning the ascent, one of the pilots switched off the autopilot, possibly in response to sudden turbulence, the report said. Seconds after the autopilot was turned off, the plane plunged to the ground.
“Don’t worry,” one of the pilots says, according to the transcript, which was translated into Russian, seconds before saying, “Don’t do that!” The last words recorded were repeated calls to “Pull up!” Only “inhuman screams” could be heard for the last six seconds.
The television channel cited experts who suggested that by turning off the autopilot, the pilots were trying to pull the plane back to a horizontal position. But at that moment a stabilizing fin at the jet’s tail was switched on.
With the fin activated, “the elevator is no longer working and the plane practically does not react to the pilot’s control panel,” the report said. The channel suggested that the pilot could have accidentally hit the button that activated the fin because of his reported “chronic fatigue.”
----
Here is an extract, for some reason cannot coy and paste entire article or link (can anyone?)
-----
"The channel emphasized that its interpretation of the transcript could not be considered the official version of what had happened.
Flying from Dubai, the plane was not able to land on its first attempt because of heavy rain and wind, and it entered a holding pattern for two hours. On the second landing attempt, the crew decided to pull up and try again, but 40 seconds after beginning the ascent, one of the pilots switched off the autopilot, possibly in response to sudden turbulence, the report said. Seconds after the autopilot was turned off, the plane plunged to the ground.
“Don’t worry,” one of the pilots says, according to the transcript, which was translated into Russian, seconds before saying, “Don’t do that!” The last words recorded were repeated calls to “Pull up!” Only “inhuman screams” could be heard for the last six seconds.
The television channel cited experts who suggested that by turning off the autopilot, the pilots were trying to pull the plane back to a horizontal position. But at that moment a stabilizing fin at the jet’s tail was switched on.
With the fin activated, “the elevator is no longer working and the plane practically does not react to the pilot’s control panel,” the report said. The channel suggested that the pilot could have accidentally hit the button that activated the fin because of his reported “chronic fatigue.”
----
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The biggest problem is the number of 24 hour rest periods, which is the worst possible duration - go to sleep on arrival at the hotel and you report to work after a long period (12hrs+) of being awake. Try to stay awake on check in and you're extending a long day even more, which needs longer sleep. We need odd multiples of 12Hrs. It was in JAROps to avoid multiples of 24hr rest for that very reason. It would be difficult to schedule anything else at outstations where there is one flight per day. That it is the norm at home base is disappointing.
That is indeed the biggest fatigue issue i experience regularly.
24 hrs rest changing sleeping pattern on a continuous basis is way more tiring than minimum rest in a same day/night pattern.
It also increases chances of cancer apparently...i recall reading it on BBC.
Last edited by de facto; 27th Mar 2016 at 16:54.
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I want to thank everyone for getting in touch. I know it’s not easy. Thank you for taking us into your trust and know that your confidentiality will be protected. This is a huge story for RT and we will run with it for as long as possible. But personally I want to promise you that I will stay on it – even when it is no longer breaking news I will still continue to investigate. Anything that anyone thinks of that is a new angle or new development, please let me know as this helps push the story back into the public eye. Best of luck to you all and please stay safe. My deepest respect, Paula Slier [email protected]
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Good work PS123...but....
Dear PS123,
thank you for bringing the issue in forefront. Much respect!
However - why just one sided reporting - someone not familiar with the issue would (rightfully) argue - that you have an axe to grind with the airlines. There would be more respect - if you put views from both sides together and let your viewers decide. Is that not what your profession would want u to do? As i mentioned i respect you to have taken up this issue - but there are many of my other colleagues who are flying and who may have a different story to tell? They continue to be happy flying and doing their job. Would we call them lackeys and management stooges? If you do - then i lose my respect for you. You have a difficult job to do. Fatigue is reported everwhere - in the US, in Europe, in your own country, In the middle east, in Far East....I bet each region could have its own scandal....Fatigue, unfortunately is subjective.....why do pilots work in middle east?? - because they get paid jolly good - period!! All this talk of modern slavery - yeah take out the pay (avg capt pay is around 200K+) and limousine transportation and premium villas and then talk of slavery - otherwise its just BS....I'm sorry, but thats the truth!
thank you for bringing the issue in forefront. Much respect!
However - why just one sided reporting - someone not familiar with the issue would (rightfully) argue - that you have an axe to grind with the airlines. There would be more respect - if you put views from both sides together and let your viewers decide. Is that not what your profession would want u to do? As i mentioned i respect you to have taken up this issue - but there are many of my other colleagues who are flying and who may have a different story to tell? They continue to be happy flying and doing their job. Would we call them lackeys and management stooges? If you do - then i lose my respect for you. You have a difficult job to do. Fatigue is reported everwhere - in the US, in Europe, in your own country, In the middle east, in Far East....I bet each region could have its own scandal....Fatigue, unfortunately is subjective.....why do pilots work in middle east?? - because they get paid jolly good - period!! All this talk of modern slavery - yeah take out the pay (avg capt pay is around 200K+) and limousine transportation and premium villas and then talk of slavery - otherwise its just BS....I'm sorry, but thats the truth!
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NewBird, Who are you exactly? And why the sudden interest in Pprune? I just happened to read Paula's response and from a wife's perspective (full admission - husband just left for work and I saw the screen open), I am thankful that attention is now being brought to this issue. The kids don't get to see their Dad near enough, and by the time he's actually home he's exhausted. I've seen too many good pilots and their families suffer because of health issues due to ridiculous long hours and poor scheduling practices (day/night flights & min.rest). Paula's message above just about brought a tear to my eye - for once someone cares enough to expose this mess for what it is. What has happened at FZ is heartbreaking and families have been affected irreparably. Management has plenty to answer for.
Last edited by Buford; 27th Mar 2016 at 15:49.
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hahaha classic!
"NewBird" shows up with their very first post to defend the poor, beleaguered airline management just trying to eke out a living...I would welcome the "other side of the story", except the management know they don't have a leg to stand on. They hide behind their silence and cozy regulators.
Why don't you have your happy colleagues come forward then?
Pilots work in the Middle East for many, many different reasons. I myself went because I had no job and EK was the first to call - it was certainly no dream of mine to go there. Many others come because their home countries are disintegrating or increasingly dangerous to live in. Think South Africa, Zimbabwe, Venezuela to name only a few...
Your comments to try and paint ME pilots as overpaid or money-hungry are pathetically transparent envy and your language such as "jolly good" is a dead giveaway as to your country of origin...finish your coffee at the atrium Costa and get back to your cubicle!
"NewBird" shows up with their very first post to defend the poor, beleaguered airline management just trying to eke out a living...I would welcome the "other side of the story", except the management know they don't have a leg to stand on. They hide behind their silence and cozy regulators.
Why don't you have your happy colleagues come forward then?
Pilots work in the Middle East for many, many different reasons. I myself went because I had no job and EK was the first to call - it was certainly no dream of mine to go there. Many others come because their home countries are disintegrating or increasingly dangerous to live in. Think South Africa, Zimbabwe, Venezuela to name only a few...
Your comments to try and paint ME pilots as overpaid or money-hungry are pathetically transparent envy and your language such as "jolly good" is a dead giveaway as to your country of origin...finish your coffee at the atrium Costa and get back to your cubicle!
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I have been flying for more than 30 years and never experienced extreme fatigue until I joined an airline that is implementing the new Far 117 American rules. it is the worst I have ever seen. the rest time is 10 hours no matter of the previous duty time. Or the time you start your rest. The 30 minutes after chocks on are considered part of rest. you can go for up to 6 sectors a day.....
Last edited by tarik123; 27th Mar 2016 at 16:50.
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newbird
Dubai may not be collecting payroll taxes, but it marks up enough on everything else to take it back.
Considering the hours of work EK captains are putting, if they strictly calculate they won't be making more than first world private carriers or third world state owned carriers. Only difference Dubai is providing simulated first world life style/quality of life.
Limos are part of company's resource management system. You don't want a slackers to get comfy and sleep any longer.
Every advertised employee benefit has an underlying REAL benefit to the company/management.
Why are pilots joining? You go dump capacity and force their original employers out of business so they don't have many options left.
Why is EK having trouble poaching type-rated pilots now? Because other airlines got smarter and stopped training or imposing stricter contracts on their own employees.
With comments like yours even those holding out of professional courtesy will start spilling beans.
Dubai may not be collecting payroll taxes, but it marks up enough on everything else to take it back.
Considering the hours of work EK captains are putting, if they strictly calculate they won't be making more than first world private carriers or third world state owned carriers. Only difference Dubai is providing simulated first world life style/quality of life.
Limos are part of company's resource management system. You don't want a slackers to get comfy and sleep any longer.
Every advertised employee benefit has an underlying REAL benefit to the company/management.
Why are pilots joining? You go dump capacity and force their original employers out of business so they don't have many options left.
Why is EK having trouble poaching type-rated pilots now? Because other airlines got smarter and stopped training or imposing stricter contracts on their own employees.
With comments like yours even those holding out of professional courtesy will start spilling beans.
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Tarik
Really? You're weak. When you flew so many sectors a day, how many time zones did you cross?
You're flat white is ready at Costa.
Fatigue is a major issue at a company when that company uses legal LIMITS as guidelines.
As far as management and reporters are concerned... My suggestion is that our managers fly our rosters and the reporters sit in the jump seat.
"Oh hey, it's called a shared rest day", or, "I know we just got off a 16hr flight 2 days ago but we are going to do a 12hr duty day in the middle of the night because we can take advantage of longer duty rules"
Or the BEST: "hey, it's legal".
Good luck to all.
All the management that are on alert, all the reporters searching for a scoop, and all the pilot professionals just trying to do our job to the best of our abilities.
Really? You're weak. When you flew so many sectors a day, how many time zones did you cross?
You're flat white is ready at Costa.
Fatigue is a major issue at a company when that company uses legal LIMITS as guidelines.
As far as management and reporters are concerned... My suggestion is that our managers fly our rosters and the reporters sit in the jump seat.
"Oh hey, it's called a shared rest day", or, "I know we just got off a 16hr flight 2 days ago but we are going to do a 12hr duty day in the middle of the night because we can take advantage of longer duty rules"
Or the BEST: "hey, it's legal".
Good luck to all.
All the management that are on alert, all the reporters searching for a scoop, and all the pilot professionals just trying to do our job to the best of our abilities.
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Chiptole,
I understand what crossing a time zone is, I have done it for a very very long time.
But flying 4 or more sectors every day, were you start at night and finish in the morning, by midday you are supposed to take your 10 hours rest. and back to the airport to start another 12 hours duty.
Every month 90 plus flight duty hours, with around 70 sectors per month.
I did ask the management to try one week of the schedule, but as always they had much more important things to do. Then I asked the planner to sit in the jump seat for a week and see if would be able to stay awake. but that was not possible either. all because the computer said the flight was legal.
So my advice to all, try to get into management as soon as possible.
I understand what crossing a time zone is, I have done it for a very very long time.
But flying 4 or more sectors every day, were you start at night and finish in the morning, by midday you are supposed to take your 10 hours rest. and back to the airport to start another 12 hours duty.
Every month 90 plus flight duty hours, with around 70 sectors per month.
I did ask the management to try one week of the schedule, but as always they had much more important things to do. Then I asked the planner to sit in the jump seat for a week and see if would be able to stay awake. but that was not possible either. all because the computer said the flight was legal.
So my advice to all, try to get into management as soon as possible.
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Chiptole,
I understand what crossing a time zone is, I have done it for a very very long time.
But flying 4 or more sectors every day, were you start at night and finish in the morning, by midday you are supposed to take your 10 hours rest. and back to the airport to start another 12 hours duty.
Every month 90 plus flight duty hours, with around 70 sectors per month.
I did ask the management to try one week of the schedule, but as always they had much more important things to do. Then I asked the planner to sit in the jump seat for a week and see if would be able to stay awake. but that was not possible either. all because the computer said the flight was legal.
So my advice to all, try to get into management as soon as possible.
I understand what crossing a time zone is, I have done it for a very very long time.
But flying 4 or more sectors every day, were you start at night and finish in the morning, by midday you are supposed to take your 10 hours rest. and back to the airport to start another 12 hours duty.
Every month 90 plus flight duty hours, with around 70 sectors per month.
I did ask the management to try one week of the schedule, but as always they had much more important things to do. Then I asked the planner to sit in the jump seat for a week and see if would be able to stay awake. but that was not possible either. all because the computer said the flight was legal.
So my advice to all, try to get into management as soon as possible.
I doubt you have the experience you say you do. Most people who read these forums, aside from yourself, are well educated.
Now get back to formulating those warning letters...
short flights long nights
Looks to me that someone has quickly cranked up some Costa dwellers to try and defend the indefensible .......
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It's nearly 5 years since I quit the airline to the south of Dubai . I was 62 , 3 years to retirement , generally happy with where I was etc , but the flying and rostering finally got to me .
The FTL were adhered to , everything was ' Legal' , but the bulk of the flying , for expats anyway , was 0100 checkin / departures for India etc , returning at 1000 , usually followed by another same duty that night , and sometimes yet another after that ( which I never did ) . The premise was that your rest period would be spent by going to bed at 1130 and sleeping like a baby until 2300 and returning to work completely refreshed . Circadian rhythms were not to be considered . If you managed two lots of 2-3 hours sleep that was your problem , the airline had provided you with the opportunity to sleep all day !
I , and another 62 year old went to management and requested job share , which would have given them 1200 hours of Captain flying for the price of 900 . We were point blank refused as they thought us cunning expats were pulling a fast one somehow . My colleague succumbed to a fatal stroke at the controls while performing another dawn landing at Jaipur a few months later . My resignation followed the next day , to,protests that the company doctors had assured them that the pestering had NOTHING to do with my friends death . It was all legal you see .
The FTL were adhered to , everything was ' Legal' , but the bulk of the flying , for expats anyway , was 0100 checkin / departures for India etc , returning at 1000 , usually followed by another same duty that night , and sometimes yet another after that ( which I never did ) . The premise was that your rest period would be spent by going to bed at 1130 and sleeping like a baby until 2300 and returning to work completely refreshed . Circadian rhythms were not to be considered . If you managed two lots of 2-3 hours sleep that was your problem , the airline had provided you with the opportunity to sleep all day !
I , and another 62 year old went to management and requested job share , which would have given them 1200 hours of Captain flying for the price of 900 . We were point blank refused as they thought us cunning expats were pulling a fast one somehow . My colleague succumbed to a fatal stroke at the controls while performing another dawn landing at Jaipur a few months later . My resignation followed the next day , to,protests that the company doctors had assured them that the pestering had NOTHING to do with my friends death . It was all legal you see .
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This isn't a forum for "American work rules"
its about pilot fatigue isn't it?..the farcical notion that becoming fatigued requires crossing many time zones is one quickly dispelled when operating under the "improved" USA FTL's...
its about pilot fatigue isn't it?..the farcical notion that becoming fatigued requires crossing many time zones is one quickly dispelled when operating under the "improved" USA FTL's...