Lowered requirements Emirates
short flights long nights
And actually Mr NG, the request about the A380 I was referring to, did not come from you. It was from some one else.
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Yep, everybody else understood that SOPS, just not Flying738ng. With his 2500hrs he's the centre of the universe. He'll be the one who after being here for 3 years is asking why he hasn't got a CMD yet.
An example of the type of pilot EK now has to court.......
An example of the type of pilot EK now has to court.......
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Whilst I fully believe that Emirates is now an awful place to work, the changed requirements can only be a good thing.
As a basic concept, recruiting pilots who are at their core good makes a lot more sense than recruiting somebody who has sat in a pilots seat for a long time.
Plenty of good carriers have recruited cadets successfully for decades
The idea that a frozen ATPL means that you are inferior to someone with 10000hrs airbus is moronic.
There are good pilots and bad pilots.
10000hrs doesn't change that.
Across all human endeavour, we know that younger people consistently outperform older.
That is true across sport to war to science to politics.
Yes, as you get more experience, some areas of your performance may improve, however the losses in other areas are dramatic.
Incidentally, I do not class doing the same thing 10000 times as experience. Airliners today are so reliable that a pilot can go a whole career without an engine failure. Incidents and accidents are experience.
Airline pilots who do not fly outside work have handling skills are frankly awful in many if not most cases. Baby pilots often have better.
Why not be honest and say "I am p1ssed off because I had hoped that Emirates running out of people who met their minimum requirements would force them to increase terms and conditions thereby improving my life. Emirates realisation that they can open the door to a huge number of extra people is going to mess up my plans"
That I can understand and sympathise with.
As a basic concept, recruiting pilots who are at their core good makes a lot more sense than recruiting somebody who has sat in a pilots seat for a long time.
Plenty of good carriers have recruited cadets successfully for decades
The idea that a frozen ATPL means that you are inferior to someone with 10000hrs airbus is moronic.
There are good pilots and bad pilots.
10000hrs doesn't change that.
Across all human endeavour, we know that younger people consistently outperform older.
That is true across sport to war to science to politics.
Yes, as you get more experience, some areas of your performance may improve, however the losses in other areas are dramatic.
Incidentally, I do not class doing the same thing 10000 times as experience. Airliners today are so reliable that a pilot can go a whole career without an engine failure. Incidents and accidents are experience.
Airline pilots who do not fly outside work have handling skills are frankly awful in many if not most cases. Baby pilots often have better.
Why not be honest and say "I am p1ssed off because I had hoped that Emirates running out of people who met their minimum requirements would force them to increase terms and conditions thereby improving my life. Emirates realisation that they can open the door to a huge number of extra people is going to mess up my plans"
That I can understand and sympathise with.
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Tourist. I agree with the idea that hiring good people is important and EK spends a lot of time an money trying to do that.
However, you other arguments don't hold water! Yes, some 10,000 hour pilots may not be very good just as some 2,000 hour pilots may not be. I'd rather have the 10,000 hour pilot in this case.
Your argument about modern aircraft reliability goes to the same case. More than likely the current crop of 10,000 hour pilots flew smaller aircraft, older aircraft with lots of non precision approaches into varying airports. A 2500 hour 737 cadet may well hand fly a bit but that's it!!! That is not experience!
Performance and age is a much studied topic. Athletically there is no doubt that performance declines with age. It is absolutely untrue in "science to politics"! In almost all endeavors not requiring large physical demands performance is highest in the above 35-45 age range declining later in their 60's. In many fields the years of experience and knowledge that have been learned cannot be taught. Regarding pilots in this area studies have found that 'physical' flying skills begin degrading in the mid to late 50's but experience compensates for it.
EK is at the point of lowering requirement because no one is applying NOT because there are low time pilots who are great. There are good low time pilots. Just not experienced low time pilots. All things being equal, any airline want quality, experienced pilots.
By the way, this is not a slight towards Ryan Air pilots or cadet pilots or other pilots. But I don't accept your premise that a low time pilot is better than a high time pilot in other than EXTREME examples.
However, you other arguments don't hold water! Yes, some 10,000 hour pilots may not be very good just as some 2,000 hour pilots may not be. I'd rather have the 10,000 hour pilot in this case.
Your argument about modern aircraft reliability goes to the same case. More than likely the current crop of 10,000 hour pilots flew smaller aircraft, older aircraft with lots of non precision approaches into varying airports. A 2500 hour 737 cadet may well hand fly a bit but that's it!!! That is not experience!
Performance and age is a much studied topic. Athletically there is no doubt that performance declines with age. It is absolutely untrue in "science to politics"! In almost all endeavors not requiring large physical demands performance is highest in the above 35-45 age range declining later in their 60's. In many fields the years of experience and knowledge that have been learned cannot be taught. Regarding pilots in this area studies have found that 'physical' flying skills begin degrading in the mid to late 50's but experience compensates for it.
EK is at the point of lowering requirement because no one is applying NOT because there are low time pilots who are great. There are good low time pilots. Just not experienced low time pilots. All things being equal, any airline want quality, experienced pilots.
By the way, this is not a slight towards Ryan Air pilots or cadet pilots or other pilots. But I don't accept your premise that a low time pilot is better than a high time pilot in other than EXTREME examples.
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Trader.
Ok. I totally disagree.
I know that military flying has many obvious differences from civil flying in terms of relative importance of the skills required in flying. That said, nobody pretends that 50yr old fighter pilots will beat a 25yr old. That is not down to physical demands, it is just down to all round decline.
They have the experience and make good instructors but cannot compete with youth.
Name a historical figure/world leader who was great/influential when old. I can name 10 young.
Name a scientist who made great discoveries when old? I can name 10 young.
10000 airline hours mean nothing. Zip. Zero.
He might be great, but 10000hrs didn't make him great.
I'd take a TP captain who has flown a dodgy wreck around Africa or an ex military late 20's C130 pilot any day. THAT is experience.
Just to make sure nobody assumes that I think all military is great, no I don't.
In my generation in the Fleet Air Arm there were a couple of truly awful pilots. 20 yrs and 1000's of hours later they are still truly awful, but now truly awful with experience. Guess that means they are lucky!
Ok. I totally disagree.
I know that military flying has many obvious differences from civil flying in terms of relative importance of the skills required in flying. That said, nobody pretends that 50yr old fighter pilots will beat a 25yr old. That is not down to physical demands, it is just down to all round decline.
They have the experience and make good instructors but cannot compete with youth.
Name a historical figure/world leader who was great/influential when old. I can name 10 young.
Name a scientist who made great discoveries when old? I can name 10 young.
10000 airline hours mean nothing. Zip. Zero.
He might be great, but 10000hrs didn't make him great.
I'd take a TP captain who has flown a dodgy wreck around Africa or an ex military late 20's C130 pilot any day. THAT is experience.
Just to make sure nobody assumes that I think all military is great, no I don't.
In my generation in the Fleet Air Arm there were a couple of truly awful pilots. 20 yrs and 1000's of hours later they are still truly awful, but now truly awful with experience. Guess that means they are lucky!
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"I'd take a TP captain who has flown a dodgy wreck around Africa or an ex military late 20's C130 pilot any day. THAT is experience."
Completely agree! I'd take those same pilot over 2500 hour cadet/737 etc pilots as well. Assuming they have 4000 or 5000 hours doing that. But I would take another pilot who has 12,000 hours now, flying airline for the last 5-10 years and has that same TP background. THOSE are the pilots EK used to employ as DEC. In my initial GS the lowest level of experience was 8000 hours - almost all came from that type of background.
With reference to your historical figures and the term 'old'. If old is above 30 then the list of 'great' people will far exceed that of the sub 30.
Completely agree! I'd take those same pilot over 2500 hour cadet/737 etc pilots as well. Assuming they have 4000 or 5000 hours doing that. But I would take another pilot who has 12,000 hours now, flying airline for the last 5-10 years and has that same TP background. THOSE are the pilots EK used to employ as DEC. In my initial GS the lowest level of experience was 8000 hours - almost all came from that type of background.
With reference to your historical figures and the term 'old'. If old is above 30 then the list of 'great' people will far exceed that of the sub 30.
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So now we are being compared to scientists and how their age influences their worth or experience? A scientists lack of experience can't kill 400 people in one go but a low experienced pilot can. Your view is flawed. Sometimes hours don't mean anything but when it comes to experience you can't compare a 20 something year old with 2000 hours thinking he is a sky god to a 25 year experienced pilot. If that was the case EK would of lowered their requirements years ago instead out of desperation now.
Last edited by V1cutz; 19th Aug 2015 at 09:26.
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V1cutz
This old "we can kill a lot of people if we make a mistake" cr@p is just old.
If that was a basis of any form of remuneration or recruitment policy then HGV drivers carrying petrol would be rich. Navy ICBM carrying submariners would be billionaires.
Politicians would be payed more than Headmasters.
Etc etc etc.
The simple fact is that airline flying is easy.
I know it wasn't always, but the fact that there are so few accidents despite so many awful airlines flying poorly maintained badly flown aircraft that we have to accept that it is easy.
The engineers have done an excellent job of obviating the need for excellence in piloting.
We also have to accept the fact that some airlines such as Easyjet have exceptional safety records despite having captains in diapers. There is NO correlation between hours and safety record that I have ever seen produced. Easyjet merely recruits good guys and trains them well.
Plenty of decent carriers have used cadets for decades and the have had no safety issues.
Trader
I think not, but I notice you have shifted from the over 35-45 range? Perhaps after a little googling?
This old "we can kill a lot of people if we make a mistake" cr@p is just old.
If that was a basis of any form of remuneration or recruitment policy then HGV drivers carrying petrol would be rich. Navy ICBM carrying submariners would be billionaires.
Politicians would be payed more than Headmasters.
Etc etc etc.
The simple fact is that airline flying is easy.
I know it wasn't always, but the fact that there are so few accidents despite so many awful airlines flying poorly maintained badly flown aircraft that we have to accept that it is easy.
The engineers have done an excellent job of obviating the need for excellence in piloting.
We also have to accept the fact that some airlines such as Easyjet have exceptional safety records despite having captains in diapers. There is NO correlation between hours and safety record that I have ever seen produced. Easyjet merely recruits good guys and trains them well.
Plenty of decent carriers have used cadets for decades and the have had no safety issues.
Trader
I think not, but I notice you have shifted from the over 35-45 range? Perhaps after a little googling?
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I have to ask this question.
What, exactly do you consider "experience"?
Once you have landed in -30C or +50C or max crosswind or at altitude 10 times, what else are you gaining?
The law of diminishing returns is inevitable, and the simple fact is that airline flying is a very very thin script. Very rarely does anything happen off script. So rarely that you might never see it in a career. There is a lot of book learning to be done about what-ifs, but that requires an eidetic memory, not experience.
Handling skills, however, are rarely better than when a cadet has just finished training.....
If you have ever flown anything requiring a bit of skill and capacity, you might realise, as I have, that whilst I am more experienced than my youthful self, I am certainly no longer the better pilot.
There is a reason that militarys don't use old pilots, and it isn't because they can't afford them.
What, exactly do you consider "experience"?
Once you have landed in -30C or +50C or max crosswind or at altitude 10 times, what else are you gaining?
The law of diminishing returns is inevitable, and the simple fact is that airline flying is a very very thin script. Very rarely does anything happen off script. So rarely that you might never see it in a career. There is a lot of book learning to be done about what-ifs, but that requires an eidetic memory, not experience.
Handling skills, however, are rarely better than when a cadet has just finished training.....
If you have ever flown anything requiring a bit of skill and capacity, you might realise, as I have, that whilst I am more experienced than my youthful self, I am certainly no longer the better pilot.
There is a reason that militarys don't use old pilots, and it isn't because they can't afford them.
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That said, nobody pretends that 50yr old fighter pilots will beat a 25yr old.
That's because as a 25 y/o you're generally eager, unpredictable, usually single, full of testosterone and haven't recognised your own mortality yet.
At 50 the testosterone has settled down, so have you, you are more predictable, and you recognise doing Mach 2 down a canyon at night in IMC isn't that great an idea.
That recognition is called "experience".
There is nothing wrong with young pilots or inexperienced pilots, we were all one once, but to say they are better than high time guys on average is complete Bulls#!t.
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I assure you Tourist, with 5 type ratings and flying all over the world, I am a much better pilot now than I was in my 20's. If you want to feel all high and mighty and say that cadets and all these young sky gods are better off than you that's your opinion. Maybe you should just take an early retirement and go find something else to do since your skills have deteriorated so much. Seems you are trying to justify your own downfall in your career. Better experience than a 20 year veteran? Hardly. Like I said your view is flawed and full of crap.
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Nice try tourist but I didn't shift anything.
You are absolutely wrong about handling skills being the best when a new cadet finished training. For him they may be at the best and it will decline because he enters immediate airline flying . Compare him to anyone who has a few thousand hours 'handling' aircraft and the comparison is not even close. Which is why experience outside the airline environment is so valuable.
Anyone who has spent any time training knows this. Take an average cadet, take away the ILS and they have a difficult time managing a 3 degree slope. Simply because they don't have the experience.
Airline flying may be 'simpler' nowadays but pilots get paid for when things go wrong. Looks at all the Asian accidents lately. All experience related. Want to go bigger -- look at Air France over the South Atlantic. Two inexperience guys and one hauls back on the stick and holds it there. With no disrespect to those pilots intended - a pilot who had real world experience flying various aircraft and had even a basic understanding of stalls would not have acted in that manner.
You are absolutely wrong about handling skills being the best when a new cadet finished training. For him they may be at the best and it will decline because he enters immediate airline flying . Compare him to anyone who has a few thousand hours 'handling' aircraft and the comparison is not even close. Which is why experience outside the airline environment is so valuable.
Anyone who has spent any time training knows this. Take an average cadet, take away the ILS and they have a difficult time managing a 3 degree slope. Simply because they don't have the experience.
Airline flying may be 'simpler' nowadays but pilots get paid for when things go wrong. Looks at all the Asian accidents lately. All experience related. Want to go bigger -- look at Air France over the South Atlantic. Two inexperience guys and one hauls back on the stick and holds it there. With no disrespect to those pilots intended - a pilot who had real world experience flying various aircraft and had even a basic understanding of stalls would not have acted in that manner.
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Hey Tourist, go fly a heavy into Kabul and tell me how easy it is. Maybe you've only flown in Europe. That would explain your ignorance on the subject. Also, learn the story of the old bull and the young bull. You sound very much line the young one.
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A freshly minted pilot has the best handling skills he'll ever have? Hahaha, a truly laughable opinion. But it's what keeps the internet so interesting.
The few really natural pilots learn skills quickly. But they can't compare to the experience of guys with more experience. And yes, skills decline with age.
The top fighter guys typically have several years existence before they really mature. The best guys in my old squadron were in their late 30's to early 40's. Double turn? They're get tired when I was a young buck flying against them. Triple turn? They're toast.
Skills fade. Computing speed fades. Ability to handle G's fades. But the dkine is MUCH slower vs the learning curve young guys have to climb.
See many young test pilots? Surgeons? Leading academics? Coaches? Quarterbacks? Aerobatic pilots? Youth has tremendous positve attributes but there are certain fields where experience and additional education take time, which means the peak level is older.
The few really natural pilots learn skills quickly. But they can't compare to the experience of guys with more experience. And yes, skills decline with age.
The top fighter guys typically have several years existence before they really mature. The best guys in my old squadron were in their late 30's to early 40's. Double turn? They're get tired when I was a young buck flying against them. Triple turn? They're toast.
Skills fade. Computing speed fades. Ability to handle G's fades. But the dkine is MUCH slower vs the learning curve young guys have to climb.
See many young test pilots? Surgeons? Leading academics? Coaches? Quarterbacks? Aerobatic pilots? Youth has tremendous positve attributes but there are certain fields where experience and additional education take time, which means the peak level is older.
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Tourist - there is no minimum you can set on experience, especially when flying a plane, the experience is crucial. What's even more important is training, we have pilots turning off wrong engines (after failing check rides) on takeoff emergency, and others who (even in the US), didn't turn their anti-ice on early enough.
It's these minute differences that experience connects. Yes your work environment (i.e. airline conditions) play a huge role in your ability.
To stay on topic, i commend all you Emirates pilot for making the airline one of the safest, which should be the goal of any pilot, lets hope the training of less experience continues this, and once again don't think every pilot coming out of training has 1501 hrs... !
It's these minute differences that experience connects. Yes your work environment (i.e. airline conditions) play a huge role in your ability.
To stay on topic, i commend all you Emirates pilot for making the airline one of the safest, which should be the goal of any pilot, lets hope the training of less experience continues this, and once again don't think every pilot coming out of training has 1501 hrs... !
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Besides Tourist, airlines want experienced pilots not just for their flying skills, but for command and decision making skills...
Airline flying isn't just stall avoidance and engine failure at V1... After the safety aspect comes comfort, economy and so on. A spotty 25 year old just ain't as good at that kind of stuff. Happily I was bashing the bush at that age in Barons and Islanders and learning the FLYING part...
Airline flying isn't just stall avoidance and engine failure at V1... After the safety aspect comes comfort, economy and so on. A spotty 25 year old just ain't as good at that kind of stuff. Happily I was bashing the bush at that age in Barons and Islanders and learning the FLYING part...
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I don't think so - we haven't done the Airbus v Boeing thing yet. That's good for another dozen pages...
To kick it off for the Airbus pilots, this is the above sentence in Binary code for you:
"01001001 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 00101101 00100000 01110111 01100101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000001 01101001 01110010 01100010 01110101 01110011 00100000 01110110 00100000 01000010 01101111 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01111001 01100101 01110100 00101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101111 01100100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100100 01101111 01111010 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110000 01100001 01100111 01100101 01110011 00101110 00101110 00101110"
To kick it off for the Airbus pilots, this is the above sentence in Binary code for you:
"01001001 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 00101101 00100000 01110111 01100101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000001 01101001 01110010 01100010 01110101 01110011 00100000 01110110 00100000 01000010 01101111 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01111001 01100101 01110100 00101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101111 01100100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100100 01101111 01111010 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110000 01100001 01100111 01100101 01110011 00101110 00101110 00101110"