QF DEC's to EK?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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If you somehow manage to get your promised 42 days leave each year, you do 1 day SEP, 1 day CRM, 2 days RTGS, 4 days sim which totals 50 days a year. That leaves 315 days for work, which is a little over 10 months. So, if you are doing 900 hours a year, then you are doing just under 90 hours a month. As stated.
Then there is the issue of moving goal posts regarding leave bidding; late release of initial bid and unsuccessful secondary bids, plus lack of roster satisfaction, and the picture is a little less rosy.
I can attest to the abuse of the leave system which uses short, unasked for leave periods to use up owed leave, while still getting a more than productive month. These leave periods, also often preceded or followed by ULRs, to further put a kink in the system.
What's not to love?
Then there is the issue of moving goal posts regarding leave bidding; late release of initial bid and unsuccessful secondary bids, plus lack of roster satisfaction, and the picture is a little less rosy.
I can attest to the abuse of the leave system which uses short, unasked for leave periods to use up owed leave, while still getting a more than productive month. These leave periods, also often preceded or followed by ULRs, to further put a kink in the system.
What's not to love?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Contacted, you seem happy, and that is all that matters. Enjoy. Personally, I find the manipulated leave awards a drag. Being "awarded" leave in short periods that weren't requested, and then doing a full month of flying, is not cool.
Some have better luck with rosters than others, but if a straw poll of my friends and colleagues is any reflection, there is far too much post-bid manipulation. We can't all just be unlucky.
Personally, I would happily do 900 hours a year, and have done, if I could just have some bidding success. Why make it difficult with manual insertions in the middle of requested days off? This bunch are too scared of losing control. Whatever that means.
Some have better luck with rosters than others, but if a straw poll of my friends and colleagues is any reflection, there is far too much post-bid manipulation. We can't all just be unlucky.
Personally, I would happily do 900 hours a year, and have done, if I could just have some bidding success. Why make it difficult with manual insertions in the middle of requested days off? This bunch are too scared of losing control. Whatever that means.
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Factor in (no not the dreaded Factoring) not getting paid for vacation, sick time, all the sim time and SEP days mentioned above and we are working pretty damn hard for no pay. Plus going north of 900 hours. We are a bargain to the company. Could be why no Widebody pilots come to EK. I take that back some do, most don't.
It is good for Ryanair pilots though.
It is good for Ryanair pilots though.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Don't worry boys and girls. The less leave days you are awarded, the more days available to get to 900 hours. So you're actually working less hard.
Of course, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
MW.
Of course, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
MW.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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AC
What a ****e Company eh, when they have the audacity not to pay you for taking vacation or sick leave.
Maybe you should resign and join EK. Don't seem to remember anytime throughout my 11 years here when my monthly pay had deductions for vacation or sick? I admit that I didn't receive flight pay but hey....I wasn't flying! Still got a bloody good basic salary at the end of each month though.
Or maybe you do work for EK but just like to vent ignorant and inaccurate rants. Please don't let me stop you as I might be accused of being management or drinking Kool Aid or taking pills or any other disposition that may result in support for this Company from time to time!
Now, if you stuck with the SIM, SEP, CRM and requirement to complete 'Distance Learning' in your own time, then i'd be in agreement. That pisses me off no end. This month has 87 hours but not included is 2 days of non credit so in effect i'm doing 98. That should be 6 hours of overtime but I get sweet f**k all. I know where you're coming from, but arguments need to be factual and accurate if they're to hold any credibility!
Harry
What a ****e Company eh, when they have the audacity not to pay you for taking vacation or sick leave.
Maybe you should resign and join EK. Don't seem to remember anytime throughout my 11 years here when my monthly pay had deductions for vacation or sick? I admit that I didn't receive flight pay but hey....I wasn't flying! Still got a bloody good basic salary at the end of each month though.
Or maybe you do work for EK but just like to vent ignorant and inaccurate rants. Please don't let me stop you as I might be accused of being management or drinking Kool Aid or taking pills or any other disposition that may result in support for this Company from time to time!
Now, if you stuck with the SIM, SEP, CRM and requirement to complete 'Distance Learning' in your own time, then i'd be in agreement. That pisses me off no end. This month has 87 hours but not included is 2 days of non credit so in effect i'm doing 98. That should be 6 hours of overtime but I get sweet f**k all. I know where you're coming from, but arguments need to be factual and accurate if they're to hold any credibility!
Harry
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Harry why don't you start acting like an International pilot.
There is no sick pay here. When I call in sick the company tries to put another trip in my schedule so I can fly over 90 hours every month.
There is no vacation pay here. I had a month where I had 7 days vacation and 3 days of my PPC. So with 10 days out of the month I should fly 1/3 less that month for a total around 60 hours. Well I flew 89 hours! Where is the vacation pay Harry? Where is the credit for company days?
What is the point in burning my vacation days if I am going to fly a full month anyway?
You should look around the Industry Harry. Not too many International pilots would consider Emirates a "bloody good salary" but it is probably good for you after working at the ****e charter company you worked for.
How many International pilots are applying to EK? If Emirates was so good we would have a ton of those pilots applying but instead we just have Ryanair pilots wanting to come.
There is no sick pay here. When I call in sick the company tries to put another trip in my schedule so I can fly over 90 hours every month.
There is no vacation pay here. I had a month where I had 7 days vacation and 3 days of my PPC. So with 10 days out of the month I should fly 1/3 less that month for a total around 60 hours. Well I flew 89 hours! Where is the vacation pay Harry? Where is the credit for company days?
What is the point in burning my vacation days if I am going to fly a full month anyway?
You should look around the Industry Harry. Not too many International pilots would consider Emirates a "bloody good salary" but it is probably good for you after working at the ****e charter company you worked for.
How many International pilots are applying to EK? If Emirates was so good we would have a ton of those pilots applying but instead we just have Ryanair pilots wanting to come.
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AC
Look around the industry? Maybe that's a question you should be asking yourself. I guess the answer's obvious or else you wouldn't still be here after all these years eh!
What's the matter, too late to go back in the right seat at Delta?
Harry
Look around the industry? Maybe that's a question you should be asking yourself. I guess the answer's obvious or else you wouldn't still be here after all these years eh!
What's the matter, too late to go back in the right seat at Delta?
Harry
A quick search reveals AC has now been bitching for around 8 years.
Thing is, he originally complained that what kept him here was the bond and waiting for his 7 years so he could get his provident fund.
Seriously, AC, have there REALLY been no other opportunities in that time frame?
Your logic is that EK must not be any good because people from other Internationals are not flocking here.
That must mean people ARE flocking to other internationals.
Why don't you join them?
Thing is, he originally complained that what kept him here was the bond and waiting for his 7 years so he could get his provident fund.
Seriously, AC, have there REALLY been no other opportunities in that time frame?
Your logic is that EK must not be any good because people from other Internationals are not flocking here.
That must mean people ARE flocking to other internationals.
Why don't you join them?
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I didn't know I would cause such consternation to you two management pilots! What a lot of time you have on your hands to look up my record. So not everyone flies 90 plus hours a month at Emirates? I guess I should join the management ranks so I can fly less and have more time for me.
Since you two fine gentlemen told me to leave I better get right on that. Sorry for trying to raise the T&C here to better reflect International standards. I am sorry as well that you think it is so good here. With that attitude we will never get what we deserve.
Harry, at least I could get hired from a company like Delta and we know why Wiz couldn't get hired at Qantas. What is your excuse? Oh yeah you think this is a great airline.
Since you two fine gentlemen told me to leave I better get right on that. Sorry for trying to raise the T&C here to better reflect International standards. I am sorry as well that you think it is so good here. With that attitude we will never get what we deserve.
Harry, at least I could get hired from a company like Delta and we know why Wiz couldn't get hired at Qantas. What is your excuse? Oh yeah you think this is a great airline.
Seriously AC, what do you think it says about YOU that you've spent eight years saying how much you hate not only your job, but also the place you live, yet you're STILL HERE??
Simple question, how many other jobs have you applied for in that time? If EK and Dubai is as bad as you say, SURLEY better alternatives have been available? Hell, in that time you could have gotten an MBA and done something entirely different with your life.
I know forums like this become confrontational, but I genuinely feel sorry for you- what is it that has kept you here this long if you are that miserable?
Simple question, how many other jobs have you applied for in that time? If EK and Dubai is as bad as you say, SURLEY better alternatives have been available? Hell, in that time you could have gotten an MBA and done something entirely different with your life.
I know forums like this become confrontational, but I genuinely feel sorry for you- what is it that has kept you here this long if you are that miserable?
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AC,
Genuine question mate which I hope you can answer in an open, calm an honest way....
I've been scouring the internet to see what the Delta pay rates are and there seems to be a disconnect between your assertions and what I can find:
I notice that the maximum B747/B777 Capt pay rate is $254 per hour (is this correct?)
The guarantee is 65 hours per month (which I guess is useful if you break your leg or worse).
The pension contribution is 9%.
There is an hourly increase of $6 per hour overtime (over 65 hours?).
It doesn't mention minimum days off (is there a minimum over the regulatory?)
These are genuine figures I have retrieved from a couple of pilot pay websites so please let us know if they are wildly incorrect (but please state your source).
Looking at the above, it appears broadly similar to what I'm on having been here about 10 years:
Just looked at my pay over the last year in HR direct and I've made circa $240,000. Now, I'm NOT management (most of them earn less than us for your info), but I do take the housing allowance (so the company can pay off MY mortgage) and it includes my training pay.
Now I'm guessing TAX in the US is around 25%?? This would mean I've earned around $330k equivalent (notice I haven't included school allowance etc).
Now, clearly this is just a financial argument above and doesn't take into account the fact that I've been working my arse off (I'll translate: ass), and there is no doubt that Delta is a better job in that (and no doubt other) respects, but let's not kid ourselves, none of us (you included old bud), are young enough to join Delta at the bottom of the list and make senior B777 scales in the remainder of our lifetimes!
Like I said, the above is what I have managed to dig up and the questions I've asked are genuine. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we shouldn't get a decent raise especially in view of how hard we work and how much profit the company makes, but I urge you to respond calmly and factually.
Thanks
Genuine question mate which I hope you can answer in an open, calm an honest way....
I've been scouring the internet to see what the Delta pay rates are and there seems to be a disconnect between your assertions and what I can find:
I notice that the maximum B747/B777 Capt pay rate is $254 per hour (is this correct?)
The guarantee is 65 hours per month (which I guess is useful if you break your leg or worse).
The pension contribution is 9%.
There is an hourly increase of $6 per hour overtime (over 65 hours?).
It doesn't mention minimum days off (is there a minimum over the regulatory?)
These are genuine figures I have retrieved from a couple of pilot pay websites so please let us know if they are wildly incorrect (but please state your source).
Looking at the above, it appears broadly similar to what I'm on having been here about 10 years:
Just looked at my pay over the last year in HR direct and I've made circa $240,000. Now, I'm NOT management (most of them earn less than us for your info), but I do take the housing allowance (so the company can pay off MY mortgage) and it includes my training pay.
Now I'm guessing TAX in the US is around 25%?? This would mean I've earned around $330k equivalent (notice I haven't included school allowance etc).
Now, clearly this is just a financial argument above and doesn't take into account the fact that I've been working my arse off (I'll translate: ass), and there is no doubt that Delta is a better job in that (and no doubt other) respects, but let's not kid ourselves, none of us (you included old bud), are young enough to join Delta at the bottom of the list and make senior B777 scales in the remainder of our lifetimes!
Like I said, the above is what I have managed to dig up and the questions I've asked are genuine. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we shouldn't get a decent raise especially in view of how hard we work and how much profit the company makes, but I urge you to respond calmly and factually.
Thanks
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I don't know the specifics of Delta airlines. I do know that having worked at both a major airline and Emirates that there really is no comparison between the two and pilots that do try to compare probably have never worked at a major.
One can cite figures and salaries but you can not put a figure on the treatment and other contractual items that are buried in the contracts.
I know the majors still have International pay, Jr Manning, Overtime pay, Call out pay, Sick pay, vacation pay, Equipment Sub pay and on and on. Emirates has none of the above.
Some of the figures cited in previous posts I think are low. I know my friends say that the Defined Benefit Plan (they have no pension, they voted to give it up) are somewhere around 16% and keep in mind their salaries are much higher than ours. Also not mentioned is the amount of days major pilots work. You would be hard pressed to find a major pilot who works much more than double digit days.
So combine that as an Emirates pilot I work 25% to 30% more than a major pilot that alone covers the tax implications in itself. Also the days worked and the impossible topic of Treatment and there really is no comparison.
Regardless of what you think of the US or Europe I am sure the vast majority of Emirates pilots would much rather be living in those continents than in Dubai.
When I made my mistake in coming to Emirates one of the things not factored (Factoring keeps rearing its ugly head) is how much it costs to set up here and close down here. Yes I could go other places but isn't it more cost beneficial to try and raise EK standards and pay?
But through all the arguments back and forth I can't help but to focus on who Emirates is hiring. If Emirates was such a great airline why aren't we getting the International Widebody pilots? Surely some FOs would consider EK if it was cost beneficial. The Marketplace is the final arbitrator.
One can cite figures and salaries but you can not put a figure on the treatment and other contractual items that are buried in the contracts.
I know the majors still have International pay, Jr Manning, Overtime pay, Call out pay, Sick pay, vacation pay, Equipment Sub pay and on and on. Emirates has none of the above.
Some of the figures cited in previous posts I think are low. I know my friends say that the Defined Benefit Plan (they have no pension, they voted to give it up) are somewhere around 16% and keep in mind their salaries are much higher than ours. Also not mentioned is the amount of days major pilots work. You would be hard pressed to find a major pilot who works much more than double digit days.
So combine that as an Emirates pilot I work 25% to 30% more than a major pilot that alone covers the tax implications in itself. Also the days worked and the impossible topic of Treatment and there really is no comparison.
Regardless of what you think of the US or Europe I am sure the vast majority of Emirates pilots would much rather be living in those continents than in Dubai.
When I made my mistake in coming to Emirates one of the things not factored (Factoring keeps rearing its ugly head) is how much it costs to set up here and close down here. Yes I could go other places but isn't it more cost beneficial to try and raise EK standards and pay?
But through all the arguments back and forth I can't help but to focus on who Emirates is hiring. If Emirates was such a great airline why aren't we getting the International Widebody pilots? Surely some FOs would consider EK if it was cost beneficial. The Marketplace is the final arbitrator.
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DELTA AIR LINES PAYSCALES
CAPTAIN PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year 777 747-4 787 A330 767-4 757 767 737-9 737-7 737-8 A319 A320 MD88 MD90 717
12 263 263 251 248 248 219 219 212 210 210 203 203 200 200 190
11 261 261 249 246 246 217 217 210 209 209 202 202 198 198 188
10 259 259 247 244 244 215 215 208 207 207 200 200 196 196 186
9 256 256 246 242 242 213 213 207 206 206 199 199 193 193 185
8 254 254 244 240 240 211 211 205 204 204 197 197 192 192 183
7 252 252 242 239 239 209 209 204 203 203 196 196 190 190 182
6 250 250 240 237 237 208 208 202 201 201 194 194 188 188 181
5 248 248 238 235 235 206 206 201 200 200 193 193 186 186 180
4 246 246 236 233 233 205 205 199 198 198 191 191 185 185 178
3 245 245 234 231 231 203 203 198 197 197 190 190 183 183 177
2 243 243 233 230 230 202 202 196 195 195 187 187 182 182 175
1 241 241 231 228 228 200 200 195 194 194 186 186 180 180 173
FIRST OFFICER PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year 777 747-4 787 A330 767-4 757 767 737-7 737-8 737-9 A319 A320 MD88 MD90 717
12 179 179 172 169 169 150 150 144 144 144 139 139 136 136 130
11 177 177 170 168 168 148 148 142 142 143 138 138 135 135 129
10 176 176 169 166 166 146 146 141 141 142 136 136 133 133 127
9 174 174 166 164 164 144 144 139 139 140 135 135 131 131 126
8 172 172 165 163 163 142 142 138 138 139 133 133 130 130 124
7 168 168 161 159 159 139 139 135 135 135 130 130 127 127 122
6 164 164 157 155 155 136 136 131 131 132 127 127 123 123 118
5 160 160 152 150 150 132 132 128 128 129 124 124 119 119 115
4 156 156 149 147 147 129 129 125 125 126 121 121 116 116 112
3 152 152 145 143 143 126 126 122 122 123 117 117 114 114 110
2 130 130 125 123 123 108 108 104 104 105 101 101 98 98 94
1 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68
PAY CALCULATOR (Click and drag the sliders)
Pay Rate: $150
Credit Time: 75 Hours
Bid Periods: 1
Percentage: 1
$11,250
PAY NOTES
Monthly guarantee: 65 hours
Reserve guarantee: 72-80 hours (yearly average of 75:30)
International Override Pay:
$6.50/hr Capt
$4.50/hr FO
Most junior captain hired: Dec 1997 (MD88/NYC)
Future contractual pay raises: Jan 2014 (3%), and 2015 (3%)
PER DIEM
$2.10/hr (dom)
$2.60/hr (intl)
RETIREMENT
401K:
2% (DAL contribution; no pilot match required)
401K Matching: Yes
A/B Fund:
Premerger NWA: frozen/Premerger DAL: none/12%
Other:
As of 12/31/13, contributions to the former NWA pilots targeted Defined Benefit Plan stop. Further, the Delta Pilot Defined Contribution Plan rolls into the DPSP, Delta Pilots Savings Plan (defined contribution type plan). DAL contributes 15% to the DPSP beginning 1/1/14.
Profit sharing
Mandatory retirements:
CAPTAIN PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year 777 747-4 787 A330 767-4 757 767 737-9 737-7 737-8 A319 A320 MD88 MD90 717
12 263 263 251 248 248 219 219 212 210 210 203 203 200 200 190
11 261 261 249 246 246 217 217 210 209 209 202 202 198 198 188
10 259 259 247 244 244 215 215 208 207 207 200 200 196 196 186
9 256 256 246 242 242 213 213 207 206 206 199 199 193 193 185
8 254 254 244 240 240 211 211 205 204 204 197 197 192 192 183
7 252 252 242 239 239 209 209 204 203 203 196 196 190 190 182
6 250 250 240 237 237 208 208 202 201 201 194 194 188 188 181
5 248 248 238 235 235 206 206 201 200 200 193 193 186 186 180
4 246 246 236 233 233 205 205 199 198 198 191 191 185 185 178
3 245 245 234 231 231 203 203 198 197 197 190 190 183 183 177
2 243 243 233 230 230 202 202 196 195 195 187 187 182 182 175
1 241 241 231 228 228 200 200 195 194 194 186 186 180 180 173
FIRST OFFICER PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year 777 747-4 787 A330 767-4 757 767 737-7 737-8 737-9 A319 A320 MD88 MD90 717
12 179 179 172 169 169 150 150 144 144 144 139 139 136 136 130
11 177 177 170 168 168 148 148 142 142 143 138 138 135 135 129
10 176 176 169 166 166 146 146 141 141 142 136 136 133 133 127
9 174 174 166 164 164 144 144 139 139 140 135 135 131 131 126
8 172 172 165 163 163 142 142 138 138 139 133 133 130 130 124
7 168 168 161 159 159 139 139 135 135 135 130 130 127 127 122
6 164 164 157 155 155 136 136 131 131 132 127 127 123 123 118
5 160 160 152 150 150 132 132 128 128 129 124 124 119 119 115
4 156 156 149 147 147 129 129 125 125 126 121 121 116 116 112
3 152 152 145 143 143 126 126 122 122 123 117 117 114 114 110
2 130 130 125 123 123 108 108 104 104 105 101 101 98 98 94
1 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68 68
PAY CALCULATOR (Click and drag the sliders)
Pay Rate: $150
Credit Time: 75 Hours
Bid Periods: 1
Percentage: 1
$11,250
PAY NOTES
Monthly guarantee: 65 hours
Reserve guarantee: 72-80 hours (yearly average of 75:30)
International Override Pay:
$6.50/hr Capt
$4.50/hr FO
Most junior captain hired: Dec 1997 (MD88/NYC)
Future contractual pay raises: Jan 2014 (3%), and 2015 (3%)
PER DIEM
$2.10/hr (dom)
$2.60/hr (intl)
RETIREMENT
401K:
2% (DAL contribution; no pilot match required)
401K Matching: Yes
A/B Fund:
Premerger NWA: frozen/Premerger DAL: none/12%
Other:
As of 12/31/13, contributions to the former NWA pilots targeted Defined Benefit Plan stop. Further, the Delta Pilot Defined Contribution Plan rolls into the DPSP, Delta Pilots Savings Plan (defined contribution type plan). DAL contributes 15% to the DPSP beginning 1/1/14.
Profit sharing
Mandatory retirements:
but isn't it more cost beneficial to try and raise EK standards and pay?
You've been doing it for eight years- how's it working out so far??
If Emirates was such a great airline why aren't we getting the International Widebody pilots?
To answer your question, do you not see the irony in your wondering why they don't leave THEIR Internationals, when you won't leave YOURS???