"First Wave"
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Not quite Glofish, I fully embrace the concepts of CRM etc, but I just try and stick to what I know. The rest of the bull****, I just let it flow past me - it's not worth stressing over and there's nothing I can do about it.
Do what they want, fly the plane, go home, get paid. Simple.
Do what they want, fly the plane, go home, get paid. Simple.
Last edited by Al Murdoch; 15th Sep 2013 at 08:01.
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Varmint, Your post brought tears to my eyes it was so spot on. However, you did forget to mention the inane policy of checking and rechecking of personal documents in briefing. Is there ANY airline in the entire world that does this? Takes up valuable briefing time.
But we could run this thread to infinity with regard to some of these whacko policies that come from said managers. And that is where our frustrations come in. We are held to a standard to which if said managers where held to the same standard, well we all know what the result would be.
But we could run this thread to infinity with regard to some of these whacko policies that come from said managers. And that is where our frustrations come in. We are held to a standard to which if said managers where held to the same standard, well we all know what the result would be.
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Being part of the "first wave" earlier to day, I noted with interest the general chaos that ensued after Ukraines' finest managed to park a 737 in a rather unfortunate spot.
I wonder how many "safety" debriefings will take place as a result, followed by the aforementioned letters of "ahem" negative feedback
I wonder how many "safety" debriefings will take place as a result, followed by the aforementioned letters of "ahem" negative feedback
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Got to agree with a lot that's being said here although a couple of points from my perspective.
Been around 12 years with no warnings but 4 appreciations. Not after a medal, just doing my job in a professional manner. Have not been 'bothered' once in that time by anyone from management.I would hazard a guess that the same could be said for about 95% of our pilots with 5% getting the warnings. Not saying that all have been deserved, I know for a fact they haven't but in the majority of cases.......
It's very often the same names and people wonder why? Why did I get a fine for not following the yellow path from the bus? Why a salary deduction for missing my dentist appointment for the 2nd time despite a text reminder, why I was called in for not going around despite being unstable, why I continually harass crew, why I was reported for not wearing my hat and looking like a slob and swearing with the F/O in front of passengers at the departure gate. Why? Because most are behaving like dicks and if you can't see by now that EK IS different to your previous airline, then you might as well leave. If you're still struggling to wear plain black socks, or insist on wearing the tie pin still or long sleeve shirts in summer or whatever other little rebellious streak you feel is appropriate, please don't be too surprised when we all have to line up for morning parade uniform inspection before the First wave departs!
Top Tip. Follow the rules, go to work, enjoy it, take the money and go home. Don't try to beat the system and don't beat yourself up over what others may or may not be getting.
Varmint. You 'suspect' managers got a bonus or you 'know' they got a bonus? If you know they did, please tell me who and how much because 'I suspect' you simply don't know! If it's any consolation, ask the cabin crew how much of a pay rise they got. At least we got the 3% increment which is 3% more then they picked up.
It stinks but nothing will change short term. Don't ever plan on profit share, you'll only be disappointed every year.
Harry
Been around 12 years with no warnings but 4 appreciations. Not after a medal, just doing my job in a professional manner. Have not been 'bothered' once in that time by anyone from management.I would hazard a guess that the same could be said for about 95% of our pilots with 5% getting the warnings. Not saying that all have been deserved, I know for a fact they haven't but in the majority of cases.......
It's very often the same names and people wonder why? Why did I get a fine for not following the yellow path from the bus? Why a salary deduction for missing my dentist appointment for the 2nd time despite a text reminder, why I was called in for not going around despite being unstable, why I continually harass crew, why I was reported for not wearing my hat and looking like a slob and swearing with the F/O in front of passengers at the departure gate. Why? Because most are behaving like dicks and if you can't see by now that EK IS different to your previous airline, then you might as well leave. If you're still struggling to wear plain black socks, or insist on wearing the tie pin still or long sleeve shirts in summer or whatever other little rebellious streak you feel is appropriate, please don't be too surprised when we all have to line up for morning parade uniform inspection before the First wave departs!
Top Tip. Follow the rules, go to work, enjoy it, take the money and go home. Don't try to beat the system and don't beat yourself up over what others may or may not be getting.
Varmint. You 'suspect' managers got a bonus or you 'know' they got a bonus? If you know they did, please tell me who and how much because 'I suspect' you simply don't know! If it's any consolation, ask the cabin crew how much of a pay rise they got. At least we got the 3% increment which is 3% more then they picked up.
It stinks but nothing will change short term. Don't ever plan on profit share, you'll only be disappointed every year.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 15th Sep 2013 at 15:30.
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Harry, in some respects you are correct. But this no longer a pilot group of 800 or so. Prior, it was easy to manage a small group. But now with a pilot group of closing in on 4000, it is no longer possible to manage without consistent and understandable communication.
That too, is where the rub comes in. There will always be a few F.U.'s in any organization and an effectual management would deal with them. But if there is no trend with the rest of the pilot group, why then blast them with less than logical sop's and policies?
Good for you on your stellar record, and of your so far good health. We should all be so lucky. Point being is, I have seen warning letters for sick leave such as broken bones, heart surgeries, cancer, contracted sicknesses....all of which I am sure were deserved because it was the pilots' faults for breaking a bone, getting cancer etc. I have seen warning letters for violations of FTDL, where no written policy was and is in place. Rules on the go. Since you seem to be defending "their" policies, from my perspective, how would you rate the above as being effective management?
And do we need to get into the discussion about the recent DEC policy. We had f/o's with over 20,000 total hours, mostly on wide bodied modern FMS type aircraft, as captain, flying international, passed over by less than 10,000 hour narrow bodied 737NG or 320 captains that the largest body of water ever flown over was the English Channel. But our f/o's didn't have the requisite time on EK aircraft. Effective management?
And there, my friend, is the answer for the line pilots' frustrations of inane policies. It isn't all about MLB and MAN anymore.
That too, is where the rub comes in. There will always be a few F.U.'s in any organization and an effectual management would deal with them. But if there is no trend with the rest of the pilot group, why then blast them with less than logical sop's and policies?
Good for you on your stellar record, and of your so far good health. We should all be so lucky. Point being is, I have seen warning letters for sick leave such as broken bones, heart surgeries, cancer, contracted sicknesses....all of which I am sure were deserved because it was the pilots' faults for breaking a bone, getting cancer etc. I have seen warning letters for violations of FTDL, where no written policy was and is in place. Rules on the go. Since you seem to be defending "their" policies, from my perspective, how would you rate the above as being effective management?
And do we need to get into the discussion about the recent DEC policy. We had f/o's with over 20,000 total hours, mostly on wide bodied modern FMS type aircraft, as captain, flying international, passed over by less than 10,000 hour narrow bodied 737NG or 320 captains that the largest body of water ever flown over was the English Channel. But our f/o's didn't have the requisite time on EK aircraft. Effective management?
And there, my friend, is the answer for the line pilots' frustrations of inane policies. It isn't all about MLB and MAN anymore.
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Harry - nice post, all good points especially the 5% crew...
...but don't for a second believe that your 12 years will result in any goodwill should the brand be impacted by one bad day at the office.
f.
...but don't for a second believe that your 12 years will result in any goodwill should the brand be impacted by one bad day at the office.
f.
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I take all the above points in the spirit they're meant. I find myself siding with Harry of course...
I do have one point though - when exactly do you do training courses without pay? I don't know which contract you're all on, but I get a salary every month. Quite a generous one.
I do have one point though - when exactly do you do training courses without pay? I don't know which contract you're all on, but I get a salary every month. Quite a generous one.
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Varmint, Tango, Couldn't agree with you fella's more. Really, I understand the frustration and as you rightly said - doesn't matter if you've put 25 years in with not a single incident they will throw you out for the smallest matter without thought or care to you, your life, your family and general well being.
But lets not forget this vindictive and scare culture started a few years ago already in the back.
Now with the guys in the back its gone from bad to worse - a 25fil hourly pay rise??? 25 fil's is worth nothing.
If a PUR wants to keep the managers from inserting something into his rear end they are getting worse and worse on crew.
Only the other day for example and this example coming from nearest - Cpt says in briefing to crew to take as much time as needs be for S+Securities. PUR comes on PA and tells crew "Why is no one finished with their checks yet, see this is what I hate if the Cpt says take your time everyone takes far too long - I wish they didn't say these things, now I have to rush. If someone isn't finished within X minutes they will be reported"
Not being paid for home stby (In fairness I dont know how this is for other airlines). Airport Stby - not paid for 3hr 59 if you get pulled out at 3h59
EK response is "we give you a basic salary so any ground time will be accounted by that"
Checking grooming will come to F/D, as Harry said soon enough you'll have a grooming check on each other. Are your shoes clean? Is your shirt ironed? (Not that if you hand it in to Butlers it'll come back ironed anyway, they look better when they've just come out the wash)
F/D have it easier than in the back, there is no question of that. I know as well as everyone else the investment etc required in getting to the front far outweighs the investment of being crew but crew shouldn't be treated any less of human beings than F/D.
Ultimately it comes down to someone who has recently acquired their job or got a promotion is trying to justify this, management who don't like pilots publicly and the greed that has been growing and manifesting within senior culture.
But lets not forget this vindictive and scare culture started a few years ago already in the back.
Now with the guys in the back its gone from bad to worse - a 25fil hourly pay rise??? 25 fil's is worth nothing.
If a PUR wants to keep the managers from inserting something into his rear end they are getting worse and worse on crew.
Only the other day for example and this example coming from nearest - Cpt says in briefing to crew to take as much time as needs be for S+Securities. PUR comes on PA and tells crew "Why is no one finished with their checks yet, see this is what I hate if the Cpt says take your time everyone takes far too long - I wish they didn't say these things, now I have to rush. If someone isn't finished within X minutes they will be reported"
Not being paid for home stby (In fairness I dont know how this is for other airlines). Airport Stby - not paid for 3hr 59 if you get pulled out at 3h59
EK response is "we give you a basic salary so any ground time will be accounted by that"
Checking grooming will come to F/D, as Harry said soon enough you'll have a grooming check on each other. Are your shoes clean? Is your shirt ironed? (Not that if you hand it in to Butlers it'll come back ironed anyway, they look better when they've just come out the wash)
F/D have it easier than in the back, there is no question of that. I know as well as everyone else the investment etc required in getting to the front far outweighs the investment of being crew but crew shouldn't be treated any less of human beings than F/D.
Ultimately it comes down to someone who has recently acquired their job or got a promotion is trying to justify this, management who don't like pilots publicly and the greed that has been growing and manifesting within senior culture.
Last edited by michaeljpotter; 16th Sep 2013 at 06:43.
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harry
I have received a warning for something that a year later became sop!
Any sort of postdated acknowledgment, not to speak of any apology?
For my gusto your raybans' tint sometimes look more rose than amber, although some of mine may sometimes be a shade too gray, I admit.
The whole point is that the distant EK-kind of management, with on and off FCIs and all that a$$-covering bs like this new "wave" stuff, just leaves us in a rather sarcastic mood and helps zilch towards the initial intent.
All clear signs of really, really bad management.
Take in Varmints allegation and understand some frustration!
I have received a warning for something that a year later became sop!
Any sort of postdated acknowledgment, not to speak of any apology?
For my gusto your raybans' tint sometimes look more rose than amber, although some of mine may sometimes be a shade too gray, I admit.
The whole point is that the distant EK-kind of management, with on and off FCIs and all that a$$-covering bs like this new "wave" stuff, just leaves us in a rather sarcastic mood and helps zilch towards the initial intent.
All clear signs of really, really bad management.
Take in Varmints allegation and understand some frustration!
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Glofish/Varmint/ Tango Uni/fliion et all
We're all singing to the same tune no doubt. Our record is only as good as our last flight regardless of how many years of Najms or years of unblemished service and I'm well aware of that. Agreed too with the fact that there have been some rediculous warnings and letters issued when all it would have taken would have been an extra 5 minutes of research, a phone call and an extra big bollock to stand up to the next level of management.
However, and to the Companies credit, I'm also aware that things have improved regarding disciplinary procedures and that nobody has been fired in the last few years in which, quite frankly, they hadn't deserved. I therefore go to work, do the job to the best of my ability and try to make myself and the rest of the crew have a good day out... or is often the case, night out! Too many are constantly looking over their shoulder and that, to me, is not how the job should be done. This job is what you make of it, regardless of who you work for.
My frustrations rest with the minority of pilots who can't even do the simple things like put on a standard uniform. I mean, FFS, how difficult can it be. As someone already said, we're not 800 anymore, we're over 3500 and when the Company see a few wayward behaviours, they carpet bomb every bugger and we all suffer.
These forums are our chance to vent our frustrations with the Company. It's also our chance to vent frustrations with the minority of idiots who seem hell bent on screwing it up for the majority. I've worked too bloody hard getting this far to have some dip**** take my first class entitlement away because he or she wore jeans or have any other hard earned perk removed due to the indifference, belligerence or downright stupidity of a minority.
I'm just a little surprised that more people don't use peer pressure or intervention on the line to highlight such behaviour to these few idiots.
Harry
P.S When did I get a warning for not wearing my hat? I'm getting forgetful in my old age but I don't remember that.....I love my hat!
We're all singing to the same tune no doubt. Our record is only as good as our last flight regardless of how many years of Najms or years of unblemished service and I'm well aware of that. Agreed too with the fact that there have been some rediculous warnings and letters issued when all it would have taken would have been an extra 5 minutes of research, a phone call and an extra big bollock to stand up to the next level of management.
However, and to the Companies credit, I'm also aware that things have improved regarding disciplinary procedures and that nobody has been fired in the last few years in which, quite frankly, they hadn't deserved. I therefore go to work, do the job to the best of my ability and try to make myself and the rest of the crew have a good day out... or is often the case, night out! Too many are constantly looking over their shoulder and that, to me, is not how the job should be done. This job is what you make of it, regardless of who you work for.
My frustrations rest with the minority of pilots who can't even do the simple things like put on a standard uniform. I mean, FFS, how difficult can it be. As someone already said, we're not 800 anymore, we're over 3500 and when the Company see a few wayward behaviours, they carpet bomb every bugger and we all suffer.
These forums are our chance to vent our frustrations with the Company. It's also our chance to vent frustrations with the minority of idiots who seem hell bent on screwing it up for the majority. I've worked too bloody hard getting this far to have some dip**** take my first class entitlement away because he or she wore jeans or have any other hard earned perk removed due to the indifference, belligerence or downright stupidity of a minority.
I'm just a little surprised that more people don't use peer pressure or intervention on the line to highlight such behaviour to these few idiots.
Harry
P.S When did I get a warning for not wearing my hat? I'm getting forgetful in my old age but I don't remember that.....I love my hat!
Last edited by harry the cod; 16th Sep 2013 at 13:59.
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Harry
Couldn't agree with you more on the: un-ironed shirt, scruffy shoes, hat stuffed in bag, "the book says I dont have to shave" crew.
It's a social intelligence issue i.e. no concept or acceptance of the idea that "You're always been watched."
Whatever about the Co....always honor the profession.
f.
Couldn't agree with you more on the: un-ironed shirt, scruffy shoes, hat stuffed in bag, "the book says I dont have to shave" crew.
It's a social intelligence issue i.e. no concept or acceptance of the idea that "You're always been watched."
Whatever about the Co....always honor the profession.
f.
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Fliion , you are spot on, always honor the profession. We are pilots not drivers.
The spiked hair and George Michael stubble is getting out of hand, it may have worked at RYR but don't bring it here.
The spiked hair and George Michael stubble is getting out of hand, it may have worked at RYR but don't bring it here.
Last edited by Desdihold; 17th Sep 2013 at 11:18.
If anyone is going to lose you guys travel bennies, I don't think it'll be a pilot it'll be one of the cling-ons who can't seem to grasp common manners when they travel and treat the staff like personal slaves. Seeing too much of it lately, do you think they might run a course on "how not to be a jerk in premium cabins" by any chance?
Agree re: carpet bombing, one person does something dumb and the rest pay for it- example- document checks outstation. I do love how at every briefing the skipper asks if everyone has their passport. We've been checking that stuff since day dot for the CC.... trust me, it's been done.... and done.... and done.... 
Agree re: carpet bombing, one person does something dumb and the rest pay for it- example- document checks outstation. I do love how at every briefing the skipper asks if everyone has their passport. We've been checking that stuff since day dot for the CC.... trust me, it's been done.... and done.... and done....
Last edited by givemewings; 16th Sep 2013 at 20:29.
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Originally Posted by desdihold
George Michael stumble
But then again @fliion I've had designer stubble since I was about 15 years old........... Care to write me up in a CSR ar ASR????????????What YOU do and what I do are obviously worlds apart
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1. Forget about a little stubble, what about Osama bin Laden beards???
- 100% oxygen may actually cause a greasy beard to spontaneously combust
- The eros mask will not make a tight seal during depressurization.
2. Pilots who don't wear t-shirts under their uniform shirt
- I can clearly see your nipples
- I can also see a nest of sparrows in your chest hair
- 100% oxygen may actually cause a greasy beard to spontaneously combust
- The eros mask will not make a tight seal during depressurization.
2. Pilots who don't wear t-shirts under their uniform shirt
- I can clearly see your nipples
- I can also see a nest of sparrows in your chest hair
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LLander.
Firstly you're very polite, in general your posts are always very polite just wished to make a mention of that.
I do see what you're saying with regards to putting your nose into it, I for one can say as I've been on the other side I do know what goes on and actually its quite refreshing when the "front" take an interest in the cabin.
I do my level headed best to help the crew as much as I can because I know what they have to deal with.
I think that there should be more emphasis on 'across the line' comms of crew/flight crew.
Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by the "are Gen Y" meaning female gender?
I do get the fact that some will take a mile if you let them but the verbal support from the front helps massively in the back when dealing with anything and I don't think its right for a PUR to undermine the PIC as at the end of the day - his name is on all the docs as you said and its his responsibility.
Unfortunately the clueless PUR make the job just that much harder.
Firstly you're very polite, in general your posts are always very polite just wished to make a mention of that.
I do see what you're saying with regards to putting your nose into it, I for one can say as I've been on the other side I do know what goes on and actually its quite refreshing when the "front" take an interest in the cabin.
I do my level headed best to help the crew as much as I can because I know what they have to deal with.
I think that there should be more emphasis on 'across the line' comms of crew/flight crew.
Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by the "are Gen Y" meaning female gender?
I do get the fact that some will take a mile if you let them but the verbal support from the front helps massively in the back when dealing with anything and I don't think its right for a PUR to undermine the PIC as at the end of the day - his name is on all the docs as you said and its his responsibility.
Unfortunately the clueless PUR make the job just that much harder.
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Thanks, Mr. Potter, I do see your points (all of them) but have a different outlook to some of them.
Generation Y is a demographic group having birthdates generally agreed as being from early '80s to early 2000s and are typified in various ways including, but not limited to, the display of a sense of entitlement and narcissism. In my opinion, these traits show up in many of the events I hear about taking place in the cabin amongst the crew. I never get involved unless it transcends the usual pettiness and affects the safety of the flight.
Yes the purser shouldn't undermine the PIC but perhaps this purser saw herself as having been undermined by the PIC in the first place and in conjunction with a process of which the PIC knows little anyway. If he left her to it, it would probably turn out just fine. There are better ways to do things like that.
Generation Y is a demographic group having birthdates generally agreed as being from early '80s to early 2000s and are typified in various ways including, but not limited to, the display of a sense of entitlement and narcissism. In my opinion, these traits show up in many of the events I hear about taking place in the cabin amongst the crew. I never get involved unless it transcends the usual pettiness and affects the safety of the flight.
Yes the purser shouldn't undermine the PIC but perhaps this purser saw herself as having been undermined by the PIC in the first place and in conjunction with a process of which the PIC knows little anyway. If he left her to it, it would probably turn out just fine. There are better ways to do things like that.
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Generation Y is a demographic group having birthdates generally agreed as being from early '80s to early 2000s and are typified in various ways including, but not limited to, the display of a sense of entitlement and narcissism.
Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by the "are Gen Y"
Summed up nicely by a clever fellow once with the observation "they are all too well aware of THEIR rights, but sadly utterly unaware of their responsibilities"
Gen 'Y" in a nutshell....