Asiana 777 crash at KSFO
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At top of climb, "What do you think the box will say for level off altitude and more importantly, the drift down speed will be, before you select the engine out VNAV page?"
Or when working it out for the approach, 'what will be the braking distance/FOLD? ' BEFORE they press the magic box! Just so they start to get a feel for the ballpark figure before the box comes out with the answer, because we know the problem with magic boxes is ' rubbish in rubbish out'
Hopefully they will then pick up the fxxk up, before they end up in the office for tea and biscuits.
Just my little effort to get pilots to think, hope one day it will help someone.
Not that hopeful, because none of them have even thought about the figures before, and trust the magic box totally!!!
Or when working it out for the approach, 'what will be the braking distance/FOLD? ' BEFORE they press the magic box! Just so they start to get a feel for the ballpark figure before the box comes out with the answer, because we know the problem with magic boxes is ' rubbish in rubbish out'
Hopefully they will then pick up the fxxk up, before they end up in the office for tea and biscuits.
Just my little effort to get pilots to think, hope one day it will help someone.
Not that hopeful, because none of them have even thought about the figures before, and trust the magic box totally!!!
With respect to the drift down, I did a line check to a place where there are no terrain constraints (I'll let you guess, but the flight number starts with a "6") and on discussion on my sector, I noted the drift down was virtually irrelevant given it was a tanking sector, and there was no terrain...queue tut tutting from the occasional line checker who lives in the sim.
The trouble with the practical application is that one person encourages it, the next actively discourages it, and the third one can't fathom what you are talking about because they can't find an FCOM or OMA reference to it.
THATS the problem IMHO when you have people with little or no experience of having to think for themselves...aka children of the magenta line.
Funnily enough, I'm finding I'm flying with the same guys on the freighter lately, all of whom seem to have a much better grasp of being practical.
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My issue was with MaxAB suggestion that one should be completely competent if they left the training college with a piece of paper 'BEFORE' they go line flying..that's rubbish.
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Max
According you your theory...said Asiana pilot was erroneously signed off as he clearly was not ready ...
...after all its only route familiarization.
Not the skippers fault at all...just the skills TRE right?
Answer: NO. Skills tests and ZFTs are scripted - line flying is not and a lot has to be covered by the Trainer $ Trainee.
Any line jockey can give an FO route Fam...we do all the time
.
Stop talking bollox
Your idiom represents all that is wrong with some people in our industry: this arrogant sense of 'no room at the Inn' for these mensch who are not in full control of the destiny of the hundreds who sit behind him when they leave the school house....because after all way back when in my day when I got the signed piece of paper for the first time...all I needed was a little bit of 'route Fam' and I was good to go
Vomit.
f.
According you your theory...said Asiana pilot was erroneously signed off as he clearly was not ready ...
...after all its only route familiarization.
Not the skippers fault at all...just the skills TRE right?
Answer: NO. Skills tests and ZFTs are scripted - line flying is not and a lot has to be covered by the Trainer $ Trainee.
Any line jockey can give an FO route Fam...we do all the time
.
Stop talking bollox
Your idiom represents all that is wrong with some people in our industry: this arrogant sense of 'no room at the Inn' for these mensch who are not in full control of the destiny of the hundreds who sit behind him when they leave the school house....because after all way back when in my day when I got the signed piece of paper for the first time...all I needed was a little bit of 'route Fam' and I was good to go
Vomit.
f.
Last edited by fliion; 19th Jul 2013 at 02:39.
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Any line jockey can give an FO route Fam...we do all the time
Maybe where you are...but in most other operations LTI's (line training capts are vetted and receive assessment and training, not to the level of TRI...TRI is required prior to Initial line check..LTI thereafter until final line check...IOE in the USA was also required to be conducted under a line training (IOE) capt which was an authority issued by the FAA..
Maybe where you are...but in most other operations LTI's (line training capts are vetted and receive assessment and training, not to the level of TRI...TRI is required prior to Initial line check..LTI thereafter until final line check...IOE in the USA was also required to be conducted under a line training (IOE) capt which was an authority issued by the FAA..
Fliion,
You are proving to be as sharp as a bowling ball.
Max has stated, correctly, that once ZFT and Skill tests are successfully completed you have a type rating. He also says that if, during line training, some handling weakness is found, the trainee may be sent back to the SIM for more training. Sounds reasonable to me...where is your problem with this?
You also state that TRIs and TRE s should encourage more hand flying, but you would , but wont because you are too tired. And they aren't?
You also want this extra hand flying to be punitive free. Is sending them to the SIM if required for more training Punitive? Or is it better to say to them "Fella you are sh@t at landings, stay away from doing them and you should be ok".
The Don
You are proving to be as sharp as a bowling ball.
Max has stated, correctly, that once ZFT and Skill tests are successfully completed you have a type rating. He also says that if, during line training, some handling weakness is found, the trainee may be sent back to the SIM for more training. Sounds reasonable to me...where is your problem with this?
You also state that TRIs and TRE s should encourage more hand flying, but you would , but wont because you are too tired. And they aren't?
You also want this extra hand flying to be punitive free. Is sending them to the SIM if required for more training Punitive? Or is it better to say to them "Fella you are sh@t at landings, stay away from doing them and you should be ok".
The Don
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Just to add to the chorus Fliion,
So you are suggesting that in line training if you manually fly something badly you should be given a company standard 3 ?
Therefore preventing the company, the authority, or any other instructor from being able to access an accurate training record for you and as a result prevent the training department from helping you.
Millerscourt, I also have to take exception to your avoidance of V/S mode. Why would you avoid using a great mode that the manufacturer spent time installing. Perhaps you could explain how with the Autopilot engaged in descent you responded if the speed decayed while in FLCH or VNAVSPD due turbulence etc ? Let me guess you had to disconnect the A/P ?
and no V/S in climb ? why.... because it doesn't prevent speed decay ? That will be the same as manual flight then. Try climbing in an empty B777/767/757.
There but for the grace of god we all go with this accident. The requirement to leave the autothrottle engaged for all landings on this type (and airbus) is certainly eroding my skills.
So you are suggesting that in line training if you manually fly something badly you should be given a company standard 3 ?
Therefore preventing the company, the authority, or any other instructor from being able to access an accurate training record for you and as a result prevent the training department from helping you.
Millerscourt, I also have to take exception to your avoidance of V/S mode. Why would you avoid using a great mode that the manufacturer spent time installing. Perhaps you could explain how with the Autopilot engaged in descent you responded if the speed decayed while in FLCH or VNAVSPD due turbulence etc ? Let me guess you had to disconnect the A/P ?
and no V/S in climb ? why.... because it doesn't prevent speed decay ? That will be the same as manual flight then. Try climbing in an empty B777/767/757.
There but for the grace of god we all go with this accident. The requirement to leave the autothrottle engaged for all landings on this type (and airbus) is certainly eroding my skills.
Last edited by 8che; 19th Jul 2013 at 10:24.
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Gents
After this ill leave you the last word -
Don, you need to reread what I wrote. I am saying that it is unrealistic to have someone fully trained and then leave the school house. If the guy is a basket case - he should never have left in the first place. Much can be tweaked on the line - including handling particularly in the landing phase. Max's theory is that if there is any intervention from TRI in line training- then the guy should never have had his ticket.
Remember the point he originally made was not about said Asiana pilot - it was about everyone should be qual'd once they come on-line. I stand by my point - rubbish
Re: being tired, it was a TIC dig at the Co.'s rostering..
All yours,
f.
After this ill leave you the last word -
Don, you need to reread what I wrote. I am saying that it is unrealistic to have someone fully trained and then leave the school house. If the guy is a basket case - he should never have left in the first place. Much can be tweaked on the line - including handling particularly in the landing phase. Max's theory is that if there is any intervention from TRI in line training- then the guy should never have had his ticket.
Remember the point he originally made was not about said Asiana pilot - it was about everyone should be qual'd once they come on-line. I stand by my point - rubbish
Re: being tired, it was a TIC dig at the Co.'s rostering..
All yours,
f.
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Originally Posted by millerscourt
Some Pilots are just not with it regardless of their background.
I have to add that VS is a great mode if you know how to use it on the approach. What with CDAs all over Europe and UK etc...
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Originally Posted by 8che
There but for the grace of god we all go with this accident
Good aeroplane. CAVOK day. CFIT pure and simple! I could be harsher but pprune mods being as they are
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8che
Although I had 10 years on the B767 It was over 16 years ago but despite operating across the Atlantic and to the Far East and Australia I suppose I must have encountered turbulence in the descent from time to time but I never had to disconnect the A/P so you guessed wrong. I cannot for the life of me remember how I survived without using the V/S mode except as I later mentioned when wanting to get on the G/S from above.
As it was a long time ago I do not really want to get into the technical merits of FLCH v V/S but surely if I was descending in VNAV at say 320 IAS and wanted to reduce to say 280 due turbulence going to FLCH and winding in 280 would have the same effect as using V/S and reducing the rate of descent? Bit like going from Managed to Selected in the Airbus surely?
Although I had 10 years on the B767 It was over 16 years ago but despite operating across the Atlantic and to the Far East and Australia I suppose I must have encountered turbulence in the descent from time to time but I never had to disconnect the A/P so you guessed wrong. I cannot for the life of me remember how I survived without using the V/S mode except as I later mentioned when wanting to get on the G/S from above.
As it was a long time ago I do not really want to get into the technical merits of FLCH v V/S but surely if I was descending in VNAV at say 320 IAS and wanted to reduce to say 280 due turbulence going to FLCH and winding in 280 would have the same effect as using V/S and reducing the rate of descent? Bit like going from Managed to Selected in the Airbus surely?
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I have no idea what Ozonaught and Fliion are arguing about.
But a Couple points,
1. Fliion, you say you are from the USA, but I've never heard an American say "rubbish"
2. Checking/Training, whatever. During line training, a student shows clear deficiency on hand flying and they are dangerous. Call it remedial training/failure, doesn't matter. The 1 stripers are always sent back to sim after nearly killing 300 Indians when the TRI takes over the landing.
3. Another student can fly the airplane well, but has trouble with the radio or SOP through unfamiliar environment. Don't anyone dare "FAIL" that poor guy and send him back to the sim. What is he going to learn in the sim? TEACH him, watch for improvement on the return sector. Do they teach TRI's "fundamentals of instruction?" The definition of learning is a change of behavior.
4. Final point, Has anyone ever failed a manual handling sim? I've seen a few guys that should have.
These accidents come in three's. We are due for a 3rd "children of the magenta" crash. a. Air France, b. Asiana, C. ???????
But a Couple points,
1. Fliion, you say you are from the USA, but I've never heard an American say "rubbish"
2. Checking/Training, whatever. During line training, a student shows clear deficiency on hand flying and they are dangerous. Call it remedial training/failure, doesn't matter. The 1 stripers are always sent back to sim after nearly killing 300 Indians when the TRI takes over the landing.
3. Another student can fly the airplane well, but has trouble with the radio or SOP through unfamiliar environment. Don't anyone dare "FAIL" that poor guy and send him back to the sim. What is he going to learn in the sim? TEACH him, watch for improvement on the return sector. Do they teach TRI's "fundamentals of instruction?" The definition of learning is a change of behavior.
4. Final point, Has anyone ever failed a manual handling sim? I've seen a few guys that should have.
These accidents come in three's. We are due for a 3rd "children of the magenta" crash. a. Air France, b. Asiana, C. ???????
Last edited by pilotday; 19th Jul 2013 at 17:54.
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Millerscourt,
To be fair that's not what I asked. My question was considering your evasion of V/S on the B767 how do you deal with an undesirable speed decay from your selected speed when in the descent with FLCH and/or VNAVSPD ?
What annoys me is a complete avoidance of a designed mode for absolutely no operational reason and actually in contradiction to the manufacturers advice.
White knight
If you think an accident doesnt apply to you because of a seemingly obvious poor crew conduct and you're perfect record so far then you have a lot to learn about how our industry has developed. The vast majority of us have never come close to this or any other accident but there will always be lessons (or reminders) for all of us. I would hardly classify it as CFIT. There was nothing controlled about it.
To be fair that's not what I asked. My question was considering your evasion of V/S on the B767 how do you deal with an undesirable speed decay from your selected speed when in the descent with FLCH and/or VNAVSPD ?
What annoys me is a complete avoidance of a designed mode for absolutely no operational reason and actually in contradiction to the manufacturers advice.
White knight
If you think an accident doesnt apply to you because of a seemingly obvious poor crew conduct and you're perfect record so far then you have a lot to learn about how our industry has developed. The vast majority of us have never come close to this or any other accident but there will always be lessons (or reminders) for all of us. I would hardly classify it as CFIT. There was nothing controlled about it.
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2. Checking/Training, whatever. During line training, a student shows clear deficiency on hand flying and they are dangerous. Call it remedial training/failure, doesn't matter. The 1 stripers are always sent back to sim after nearly killing 300 Indians when the TRI takes over the landing.
3. Another student can fly the airplane well, but has trouble with the radio or SOP through unfamiliar environment. Don't anyone dare "FAIL" that poor guy and send him back to the sim. What is he going to learn in the sim? TEACH him, watch for improvement on the return sector. Do they teach TRI's "fundamentals of instruction?" The definition of learning is a change of behavior.
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Originally Posted by 8che
If you think an accident doesnt apply to you because of a seemingly obvious poor crew conduct and you're perfect record so far then you have a lot to learn about how our industry has developed. The vast majority of us have never come close to this or any other accident but there will always be lessons (or reminders) for all of us. I would hardly classify it as CFIT. There was nothing controlled about it.
Of course it was CFIT. It's an Oxymoron but maybe you need help with these long words too
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What does CFIT stand for ? Can you spell out the words or do you need help with that ?
When you have finished spelling it out have a look at the definition of the word "controlled".
Then pick up any safety magazine and have a look how they define CFIT. Oh of course you probably don't read those as none of it applies to you !
When you have finished spelling it out have a look at the definition of the word "controlled".
Then pick up any safety magazine and have a look how they define CFIT. Oh of course you probably don't read those as none of it applies to you !
Last edited by 8che; 19th Jul 2013 at 18:34.
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Yes, Knight, but that's because you come from what you freely admit is a sheltered workshop. Try flying in a demanding environment with the product of your own system. Your lot have a lot to answer for these days and are widely seen for being exactly what they have espoused over the years and not just due to world politics and lousy diplomacy policies. Now it's biting you (and US) in the arse. Take a look at your own back yard before you push your barrow.....
Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) describes an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, water, or an obstacle
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Wiz
Whether that incident was CFIT by definition is irrelevant as what I assume WK was saying was that all those at the sharp end were totally out of the loop as to what the aircraft was doing whilst in CAVOK conditions and as such makes one wonder about these children of the magenta line.
Whether that incident was CFIT by definition is irrelevant as what I assume WK was saying was that all those at the sharp end were totally out of the loop as to what the aircraft was doing whilst in CAVOK conditions and as such makes one wonder about these children of the magenta line.