EK 380s
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Why can't the company be honest!!.. we hear about so many things from here or the newspaper but no one has the balls to tell the employees!!!
(only on the crew portal KG on his holiday!!!)
eg.. unpiad leave to cabin crew
eg.. SFS operating as Pur due to no courses ...etc...
they want honesty but they don't give so much back....loss of face me thinks!!!
(only on the crew portal KG on his holiday!!!)
eg.. unpiad leave to cabin crew
eg.. SFS operating as Pur due to no courses ...etc...
they want honesty but they don't give so much back....loss of face me thinks!!!
Last edited by afcwxm; 14th Jun 2012 at 07:27.
LHR rain have you got a course date yet?
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Ex 380
Nop....I've never flown a 380 but talking to friends that has flown the 380 and the 777, all prefer the design logic of the Boeing. Plus info are readily available on various web sites to include the airbus and Boeing....Any typical person can evaluate the difference of the design philosophy.
Btw, if the A380 is as good as what the airbus claimed then why airbus are not getting any orders from CX, JL, ANA, SQ(more order), KE(more), plus many other carriers in the world....
I think the numbers will speak for itself.
Nop....I've never flown a 380 but talking to friends that has flown the 380 and the 777, all prefer the design logic of the Boeing. Plus info are readily available on various web sites to include the airbus and Boeing....Any typical person can evaluate the difference of the design philosophy.
Btw, if the A380 is as good as what the airbus claimed then why airbus are not getting any orders from CX, JL, ANA, SQ(more order), KE(more), plus many other carriers in the world....
I think the numbers will speak for itself.
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Emirates’ Costs For A380 Wing Rib Repairs Continue To Escalate
By Jens Flottau
Source: Aviation Daily
A380 Wing Repair Costs Escalate For Emirates
June 13, 2012
Emirates Airline says it is facing massive costs and huge operational disruptions as it resolves problems with wing rib feet cracking on its Airbus A380 fleet, and is preparing for negotiations with the European airframer about compensation.
Airline President Tim Clark, talking to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the International Air Transport Association annual general assembly in Beijing, says Airbus Chief Operating Officer-Customers “John Leahy has said there is no compensation, but we take a different view,” adding, “They [Airbus] have a legal obligation to fix the aircraft at their expense.”
However, he concedes that the purchase contracts do not include clauses for this scenario, noting, “In all fairness, nobody would ever have contemplated anything like this.”
The financial impact on the airline is significant and continues to grow, with Clark estimating that the A380 wing problems have a $30 million monthly impact on the carrier’s bottom line.
Emirates external auditors claim the actual effect is closer to $50 million per month.
Emirates is the largest A380 operator with 21 aircraft in service. It will take delivery of another 23 by early 2014, but these aircraft still have the old wing design.
Airbus has developed a short-term repair program for the in-service fleet, and has designed a longer-term fix for the first 120 aircraft to be delivered by early 2014 that will include modified wing rib feet, among other modifications, to avoid the Type 1 and Type 2 cracks of the original wing design.
The retrofit replaces all of the 23 hybrid ribs, which are made of a mix of 7449 aluminum and a composite material, with all-metallic ribs made of 7010 alloy. The rib feet also will be redesigned to strengthen them, and an inspection manhole in the area where the cracking occurs will be reinforced.
Clark says Emirates discovered 700 Type 1 cracks in the two wings of one aircraft. The more serious Type 2 cracks are much less common.
The airline has had six A380s on the ground at a time, almost one-third of the fleet, since the problems emerged to make checks and preliminary repairs. The last two aircraft were grounded for repairs this week and are not due to return to revenue service until the end of July.
Clark says that while Airbus claims the quick repairs could be done within 10 days, Emirates’ experience is different: its aircraft have been grounded for an average 35 days, and some of them required 42 days.
Moreover, some of the aircraft that have been repaired likely will have to undergo the process again after completing 500 additional cycles. “We know there will be new [Type 1] cracks after 500 cycles because we have seen them well before 500 [cycles] on our aircraft,” Clark says. Operationally that means the airline will have to take aircraft out of service again after a period of only a few months.
Airbus and Emirates have meanwhile mapped out a plan for the permanent retrofit that will return its A380s to the original life cycle expectation. The program will start in the third week of January 2013 and end in November 2014.
The carrier will have four A380s taken out of service at any given time.
Source: Aviation Daily
A380 Wing Repair Costs Escalate For Emirates
June 13, 2012
Emirates Airline says it is facing massive costs and huge operational disruptions as it resolves problems with wing rib feet cracking on its Airbus A380 fleet, and is preparing for negotiations with the European airframer about compensation.
Airline President Tim Clark, talking to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the International Air Transport Association annual general assembly in Beijing, says Airbus Chief Operating Officer-Customers “John Leahy has said there is no compensation, but we take a different view,” adding, “They [Airbus] have a legal obligation to fix the aircraft at their expense.”
However, he concedes that the purchase contracts do not include clauses for this scenario, noting, “In all fairness, nobody would ever have contemplated anything like this.”
The financial impact on the airline is significant and continues to grow, with Clark estimating that the A380 wing problems have a $30 million monthly impact on the carrier’s bottom line.
Emirates external auditors claim the actual effect is closer to $50 million per month.
Emirates is the largest A380 operator with 21 aircraft in service. It will take delivery of another 23 by early 2014, but these aircraft still have the old wing design.
Airbus has developed a short-term repair program for the in-service fleet, and has designed a longer-term fix for the first 120 aircraft to be delivered by early 2014 that will include modified wing rib feet, among other modifications, to avoid the Type 1 and Type 2 cracks of the original wing design.
The retrofit replaces all of the 23 hybrid ribs, which are made of a mix of 7449 aluminum and a composite material, with all-metallic ribs made of 7010 alloy. The rib feet also will be redesigned to strengthen them, and an inspection manhole in the area where the cracking occurs will be reinforced.
Clark says Emirates discovered 700 Type 1 cracks in the two wings of one aircraft. The more serious Type 2 cracks are much less common.
The airline has had six A380s on the ground at a time, almost one-third of the fleet, since the problems emerged to make checks and preliminary repairs. The last two aircraft were grounded for repairs this week and are not due to return to revenue service until the end of July.
Clark says that while Airbus claims the quick repairs could be done within 10 days, Emirates’ experience is different: its aircraft have been grounded for an average 35 days, and some of them required 42 days.
Moreover, some of the aircraft that have been repaired likely will have to undergo the process again after completing 500 additional cycles. “We know there will be new [Type 1] cracks after 500 cycles because we have seen them well before 500 [cycles] on our aircraft,” Clark says. Operationally that means the airline will have to take aircraft out of service again after a period of only a few months.
Airbus and Emirates have meanwhile mapped out a plan for the permanent retrofit that will return its A380s to the original life cycle expectation. The program will start in the third week of January 2013 and end in November 2014.
The carrier will have four A380s taken out of service at any given time.
Then isn't it just opinion, doesn't make it fact... same as the old Holden vs Ford... everyone has their preference but doesn't mean one is necessarily better or worse design than the other- each has good and bad points.
Going by the logic that the 380 hasn't sold huge numbers (not sure what you call 100+ in the first 4 years, considering it is a bit of a 'niche' aircraft) then by the same view the Concorde is also a 'POS aircraft' (which we all know was actually a pretty innovative design- aside from fuel tanks of course) or because not every guy on the street has a Ferrari they must also be crap...?
Generally speaking, If I ask a Boeing pilot, Airbus is crap. If I ask an Airbus pilot, Boeing is crap. If I ask someone who likes flying, anything is good and fun isn't that what most of us got into aviation for, coz it sure beats flying a desk
Going by the logic that the 380 hasn't sold huge numbers (not sure what you call 100+ in the first 4 years, considering it is a bit of a 'niche' aircraft) then by the same view the Concorde is also a 'POS aircraft' (which we all know was actually a pretty innovative design- aside from fuel tanks of course) or because not every guy on the street has a Ferrari they must also be crap...?
Generally speaking, If I ask a Boeing pilot, Airbus is crap. If I ask an Airbus pilot, Boeing is crap. If I ask someone who likes flying, anything is good and fun isn't that what most of us got into aviation for, coz it sure beats flying a desk
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The financial impact on the airline is significant and continues to grow, with Clark estimating that the A380 wing problems have a $30 million monthly impact on the carrier’s bottom line.
Emirates external auditors claim the actual effect is closer to $50 million per month.
Emirates external auditors claim the actual effect is closer to $50 million per month.
Who knew you actually meant "whole another level of risk and financial liability"?
Wow, only costing the bottom line 50,000,000 dollars a month! What a stunning success! In a year, by my rough math, that means the Uglybus will have cost the company...ummm...pretty much exactly as much as all of last year's profit! Geezuz. Better hope that profit share target is set a little lower for next year...
C'mon. Even the most ardent, panting A380 apologist (here's lookin' at you, EX-380 Driver-guy) can't pretend those numbers spell success.
Very good point nolimit. You may be right. Or it could be that the Boeing that has been flying the 380 sectors just can't carry enough and is costing the company a sh@tload. Who knows.
The wing thing is bad in a new design. Having aircraft on the ground for that long for temporary repairs, knowing that it all has to be done again for the real fix is frustrating when an airline is trying to grow. On the face of it I can't see how airbus is not culpable for compensation. There must be a lot more to this than meets the eye. But we will never know the truth.
But in the mean time, the 380 will keep arriving, the 330s will keep being retired, and the Indian night turn arounds will continue to operate. Just as they have always done.
There is nothing to see here...move on.
The Don
The wing thing is bad in a new design. Having aircraft on the ground for that long for temporary repairs, knowing that it all has to be done again for the real fix is frustrating when an airline is trying to grow. On the face of it I can't see how airbus is not culpable for compensation. There must be a lot more to this than meets the eye. But we will never know the truth.
But in the mean time, the 380 will keep arriving, the 330s will keep being retired, and the Indian night turn arounds will continue to operate. Just as they have always done.
There is nothing to see here...move on.
The Don
Me thinks someone here are completely missing the point when it comes to the 30 (or 50 mill). It doesn't so much show what the A380 costs when they're a bit broke for a while, rather the earning potential they have when they've been fixed and will be flying for the next decades. This wing cracking is but a blip in the overall scheme of things, and it seems that A380 is, or will be when it's fixed, a mega-buck earner for the airline.
Last edited by SMT Member; 14th Jun 2012 at 22:04.
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The whole Boeing v Airbus spat is pointless;
1) demand is down + fuel is up + yields down = 777 is now the money maker
eventually when;
2) demand is up + fuel stabilizes + yields improve (particularly premium yields) = 380 is the bread winner
All this talk of John Deere/Whale etc. is a joke, we all get paid the same, and I couldn't give a
what I fly (unless it's the 330, because those guys deserve an accolade for their contribution)
Scandi
1) demand is down + fuel is up + yields down = 777 is now the money maker
eventually when;
2) demand is up + fuel stabilizes + yields improve (particularly premium yields) = 380 is the bread winner
All this talk of John Deere/Whale etc. is a joke, we all get paid the same, and I couldn't give a
what I fly (unless it's the 330, because those guys deserve an accolade for their contribution) Scandi
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third possibility:
3) demand is down + fuel price collapses + yield continues to be subsidized by Airbus due to fuel over burn = you can even dig out the A345
There's a scenario for every flying obstacle.
I truly guess that TC is happy enough with the wing cracks because now Airbus covers the economic slump and low loads by grounding the dugongs but paying for it! First it was the penalty for consumption, now it is the penalty for the mis-design. Just wait and listen to Timmy when such subsidies will stop....
Someone pretended:
Given. But this sounds to me like the RTA barking that Dubai will be a traffic heaven when all the interchanges will be complete.
I guess no one would sign a blank check on that the wing fiasco will remain the only one.
Weight shedding and rushing to delivery only started to show its toll.
Why do Taxi companies buy Camrys that no individual wants?
On the glossy handouts all Audis, BMWs and Mercs look way more comfy and performant. When it comes down to economics (you know, the ones that hit the bank account, not the ones boasted in the pub), companies prefer the work horse that actually starts when the button is pushed and that gives the expected mileage and run-miles for the dollar.
The design, specs and the profile of the A380 look fine but need to be objectively proven.
At the moment at least our only yardstick is the profit share, and that's the one who slumped dramatically since the dugong arrived.
That is essentially why I don't like it.
3) demand is down + fuel price collapses + yield continues to be subsidized by Airbus due to fuel over burn = you can even dig out the A345
There's a scenario for every flying obstacle.
I truly guess that TC is happy enough with the wing cracks because now Airbus covers the economic slump and low loads by grounding the dugongs but paying for it! First it was the penalty for consumption, now it is the penalty for the mis-design. Just wait and listen to Timmy when such subsidies will stop....
Someone pretended:
rather the earning potential they have when they've been fixed
I guess no one would sign a blank check on that the wing fiasco will remain the only one.
Weight shedding and rushing to delivery only started to show its toll.
Why do Taxi companies buy Camrys that no individual wants?
On the glossy handouts all Audis, BMWs and Mercs look way more comfy and performant. When it comes down to economics (you know, the ones that hit the bank account, not the ones boasted in the pub), companies prefer the work horse that actually starts when the button is pushed and that gives the expected mileage and run-miles for the dollar.
The design, specs and the profile of the A380 look fine but need to be objectively proven.
At the moment at least our only yardstick is the profit share, and that's the one who slumped dramatically since the dugong arrived.
That is essentially why I don't like it.
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I was schd to fly the EK -380 from Incheon-DXB and FRA-DXB, but both flights had substitute aircraft. The FRA flight was worse, because it was a -330. I was in business class with no power outlet in my seat, I guess because it is their shorter-range aircraft.
Even in the US some aircraft have power outlets in Economy seating.
I had heard that the -380 was very nice, even in coach, so I was disappointed about not getting to fly on it yet.
cliff
CVG
Even in the US some aircraft have power outlets in Economy seating.
I had heard that the -380 was very nice, even in coach, so I was disappointed about not getting to fly on it yet.
cliff
CVG
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Dont think too many people have flown both the B777 and A380 yet. A handfull perhaps...
As for all this discussion about what the 380 is costing again who cares, if TC et al did not think there is commercial sense in having it and continuing to consider new orders, then he would not be doing so. He is simply playing high stakes poker with Airbus to get the best commercial leverage he can, nothing new there.
So as pilots, choose your weapon of choice, fly it and be happy, stop thinking you know even a little of what go's on behind the scenes in the commercial side of things. We don't.
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Ex
you bite any bait, don't you !!
Well, certainly we had some dugongs since 4 years. The 12 weeks came from two seasons ago -- and how few did hang around then? How many now?
But give and take we have to live with them now. If you go back some months, I stated that it will be all right as long as the fuel price remains below 100$.
So actually we can manage and even fly them with a profit I guess, as long as they really fly though.
Certainly the T7 uses a lot of fuel, but again, I guess no real insider would contest that it does that as the most economical aircraft on long haul today.
I stick to my prediction that the dugong will be fine as long as Airbus pays fuel compensation and the barrel stays below 100$.
The whinging of the purple palace will start immediately the moment this changes.
In the mean time we will just not achieve the imposed benefit and I admit it is a little unfair to blame the dugong for it, but leave me that little bait to get all the ex380ies started!
you bite any bait, don't you !!
Well, certainly we had some dugongs since 4 years. The 12 weeks came from two seasons ago -- and how few did hang around then? How many now?
But give and take we have to live with them now. If you go back some months, I stated that it will be all right as long as the fuel price remains below 100$.
So actually we can manage and even fly them with a profit I guess, as long as they really fly though.
Certainly the T7 uses a lot of fuel, but again, I guess no real insider would contest that it does that as the most economical aircraft on long haul today.
I stick to my prediction that the dugong will be fine as long as Airbus pays fuel compensation and the barrel stays below 100$.
The whinging of the purple palace will start immediately the moment this changes.
In the mean time we will just not achieve the imposed benefit and I admit it is a little unfair to blame the dugong for it, but leave me that little bait to get all the ex380ies started!
Low loads??
Would love to know where you're seeing low loads because every flight I've done lately has been chockas. Same with trying to get on anything with a staff ticket standby, almost no chance...
Or are you talking about something else....
(That goes for 380 and 777)
Would love to know where you're seeing low loads because every flight I've done lately has been chockas. Same with trying to get on anything with a staff ticket standby, almost no chance...
Or are you talking about something else....
(That goes for 380 and 777)
Last edited by givemewings; 15th Jun 2012 at 13:01.
