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Safety culture at EK

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Safety culture at EK

Old 21st Nov 2011, 12:56
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Safety culture at EK

can somebody who works for EK please shed light on their safety culture:
non punitive reporting system
flight safety department
FDM monitoring

are fight crew reporting on incidents?

what happens to these flight crew?

Thanks
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 14:31
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It is a nasty punitive system.

That was proven with the departure of the MEL crew before an analysis of the event had even begun.

SVP- Safety has accepted to be overruled by Flight OPS and has broken the vital trust that a safety system must have between Pilots and the safety department. The prevention of accidents is based on data from involved parties including pilots. If the system is punitive then you loose the vital data from the pilots and you willingly ignore the MODERN aviation safety principles.

A safety system must be JUST and must be balanced. Emirates is far from JUST.

Emirates is less safe due to this fact - not because of the hard working pilots but because of the system.

Fly safe
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:55
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g109

Depending on what you're used to, EK's safety culture may be worse or it may be better than other airlines.

The Company claims to operate a non punitive safety reporting culture and to many extents, that's true. We have our own aircraft monitoring systems in place and crews may well be 'debriefed' by both Flight Safety and Fleet if there are concerns regarding infringement of specific flight parameters. There are various means to report safety concerns, including confidential safety reports, but the ASR system is the main form for highlighting safety concerns. These reports are de identified and available to all pilots and senior management. They are published weekly. Cabin crew have a similar system and although there have been over 10 inadvertent slide deployments within the last year, nobody has been fired or received a written warning. Some of these deployments have been caused by Flight Crew.

Regarding the comment from the previous poster, yes, several crew were dismissed before a full investigation was undertaken. This was several years ago and pilots were being fired quicker than it takes a vindaloo to go from plate to porcelain. MEL was one such example but whilst I agree that the handling of the incident was a disgrace, the outcome was inevitable. MAN was a different case altogether and reflected the weak and ineffective power that even a DSVP can weald when confronted by a determined yet ignorant boss. However, in recent times there has been no such action, which is perhaps a credit to flight ops management. There have been several cases of aircraft departing from the paved surface as well as a few more serious events which i'm not prepared to discuss on this forum. So far, nobody has been fired or asked to resign. ( Personal issues/ unacceptable behaviour aside)

If the Company were to have continued it's obligatory dismissals, many new joiners would not have come and many EK experienced pilots would be actively looking elswhere.

My personal take on it is simple. If you fly within SOP's and use airmanship when required you'll be fine, although i'm sure that there are some on this forum who'd beg to disagree.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 18:58
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thanks

BYMONEK, thanks for your post, that makes me feel a bit better, i am thinking of coming to EK.

I am just thinking with an airline the size of EK, and the rapid expansion incidends are inevitable.

I am glad to see people are not punished, and can report issues.

do you have LOSA or something similar in place at EK?

just to refresh my memory, what happened in MAN?

cheers
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 00:58
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Thumbs down

g109 - what sitting idly says is correct unfortunately. It IS only a question of when not if!!

So you're thinking about joining EK? These are the facts on just some of the current problems:

1) Rostering - The normal computerized system which allocates your roster is now being done manually as major pilot shortages do not allow for the program to complete the process. This is resulting in significant numbers of pilots on top bids getting none of their flights. Instead you are being given the opposite - high amount of night turnarounds or 5-7 day trips away from home.

2) Annual Leave - There is NO annual leave available for the next 4 months. There are a very large number of pilots who still have leave to take - above the 15 days that can be rolled over. Forget what your contract says. Ops and Fleet have said that all leave will need to be rolled over to next year as there are no days available for forced leave either. Warnings are being heard from rostering and the planners about next years leave being tougher to get, which means the days rolled over will most likely not be honored. Don't forget that if you join EK you are banned from taking leave for the first 6 months!

3) Training - Poor standardization, poor levels of trainers being attracted due to very few applications to join the training department. When asked about this situation Capt AS suggested crews should return to their old companies if they don't like it! This is being combined with current trainers being heavily over worked resulting in many long term and respected trainers resigning. Type Ratings have been outsourced. CU's are fluctuating with many students very unhappy with the courses as no training is actually being undertaken.

4) Travel - flights to and from many destinations are consistently over booked so flights home on staff travel are not listed for use by crew and their families. Returning home has become very difficult on staff travel.

5) Pay - the target for this years results is incredibly high considering the world market. No profit share is expected, in turn with no pay rise. The earliest would be mid 2013. Even with pilot shortages widely reported EK will not adjust pay for new joiners, current crew and the training department. The DVP's do enjoy fat bonuses though!

6) Accommodation - the responsible department is incredibly unhelpful and many times rude to both new joiners and long term staff. The department staff are quick to file reports against you if they feel you are being pushy. The attitude is very much of tough luck and if you opt out of company accommodation then notification and conclusion of your stay is generally very short notice. As no leave is available this has resulted in high costs and hassle for crews which is not recoverable from the company.

7) Company Ethos - Both pilots and CC live under a fear of consistently being reported and face company action. This is resulting in crews not filling reports on incidents or filling reports for everything to try and cover themselves. Safety and efficiency is talked about, but the working environment is the far opposite. Any problems taken to management are pushed under the rug as even the managers are fearful of being seen to be out of touch and lacking control of their department. Safety is a major issue!

8) No union - EK does not have a union and it does not look like it will. There are many crews talking about something similar which is hopeful, yet with senior management telling pilots to leave if they complain it will take something substantial for any change.

Again EK is not the answer!!

The company portrays happiness and growth, but the expansion to too rapid and the crews are feeling it with no support from the management. This is evident with the A330/40 fleet and the B777 fleet flying 95hrs per month on night turn arounds or with minimum rest in between flights. Be aware that the FAA are in discussion with the EK over concerns about minimum rest periods on flights to the USA.

Ask the questions to the EK recruitment but do not be surprised if the questions are shrugged off. They have targets to hit. Asking recruitment is not the answer as apparently most of the department do not operate the line or are guys on sick leave and are trying to hold on to their jobs.

I say again these are the facts as I have found in the 26 months I have been with EK. If you do join - then beware!
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 05:13
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I have also been into the EK Safety department for a debrief more like a witch hunt , there was very little interest in what happened and could we learn from it, and everything about whose fault was it and did you make an error because your decision cost the company money and someone needs to answer for that!
I was also not told that Fleet would be there as well, and in fact the guy form fleet did most of the talking , very different to my experience of the old VP Safety where things where informal and he really wanted to understand WHY, things happened . My belief is safety department is far too close to Fleet.
Nothing I have seen or heard of the new VP Safety would make me believe we are getting back to the non-punitive style of Safety department we use to have. I hope to be proved wrong.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 05:32
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Even with pilot shortages widely reported EK
I can absolutely positively guarantee you if EK drops their silly 30 ton rule for jet (and make a 20 ton rule for instance), they will have opened floodgates of applications! Tons of smaller jet guys (regionals) all over the world would be in.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 12:45
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Hence the reason for the wt limit, they dont want RJ guys if they can help it.No offence.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 15:35
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in the 26 months I have been with EK.
10 more months and you will be FREE Then where will you go Work LOCOs is EU? The regionals in the States? Cargo in SE Asia?
if you join EK you are banned from taking leave for the first 6 months!
I keep reading these posts from guys like you. You complain about, seriously, NOTHING

Of course there are issues with working at EK as there are at any airline but saying that we won´t get a pay raise after only 6 months of the fiscal year and like another guy here who thinks that not being allowed more than 23kg of luggage is a reason not to join is just PATHETIC!!
And yet you give no alternative to guys who want to join!

Last edited by Eric Carr; 23rd Nov 2011 at 04:11.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 15:50
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So any kind of noisy journalist can ask subjective question and all the sheeps like Ozzie 380 dive into the trap...no discretion here guys are spitting into their soup...
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 16:56
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Lining up the holes in the Swiss cheese...

And so back to the thread, is there an issue with the safety culture....?

Far be it for any airline to be saddled with the issues below, and let's hope someone with the right 'wasta' wakes up before anything goes tragically wrong if this were to apply to their operation. The company you fly for may have some or all of the ten points outlined, perhaps you can recognise some of them.

1) rapidly expanding operation in terms of new aircraft and routes
2) recruitment department under severe strain
3) training department under severe strain
4) engineering department under severe strain
5) rostering department under severe strain
6) a management culture that accepts little or no input from those on the line
7) a safety department that appears subservient to the above management, and a 'broken' reporting system based on a culture of fear
8) fatigue issues, and management denial of those issues
9) plunging first half financial results, likely to encourage greater cost saving measures to add to the strain
10) an 'interesting' relationship with the regulator

Now hopefully no one flying in the Middle East can suggest that their company has ALL of these points happening today........... or can they?

Keep safe.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 17:46
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Hence the reason for the wt limit, they dont want RJ guys if they can help it.No offence.
Hey fatbus, nice attack. They DO want RJ guys, but ONLY if your RJ weighs more than 30 tons. The CRJ-200 and ERJ-145 do not. HOWEVER, the CRJ-700, CRJ-900, EMB-170/190 all weight more than 30 tons, and ALL of the American RJ pilots getting hired at Emirates these days are guys flying those airplanes. Sorry to break it to you, but your airline is hiring RJ guys. No offense.

Last I checked, the bernoulli's principle works the same for the CRJ-200 and CRJ-700.

I'd argue the CRJ-700 is actually more simpler to fly. Slats for lower approach speeds. Overhead panel simplified. Takeoff and climb detents for set and forget. The CRJ-200 is older, more buttons on the overhead panel, and arguably a little work than the -700s or -900s.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 18:08
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Fatbus

I would agree with you if they didnt take guys from the Ejet family or the bigger CRJs... but plenty of guys i know in EK coming from the forementioned fleets...

Ive flown both the E145 and Ejets... can tell ya which one the monkey would be capable of grasping quicker...

So they are taking RJ guys, thats Fact.... why the wt limitation.... guess someone knows better
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:15
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Eric Carr - nice post, but I think you missed the point by a mile or two.

The original thread was regarding safety culture in EK, which is why I laid down some of the current operational problems within EK. Are you saying there are no problems? As an example if you do not think that getting suitable annual leave for crews to get adequate time away is not a safety issue then you confirm the fact that safety is not a priority for you and agree with EK. The same can be said for Training, Rostering, etc.

Also you may want to reread the post as I also did NOT ask or expect any pay rise after 6 months. As you highlighted I said you are banned from annual leave for the first 6 months of joining.

Finally - 10 more months and I'll be free???? Last time I checked I'm free to leave when I want. Where to next?? The aviation market place has not been this fruitful for almost a decade, so the choices are far more varied than you suggest.

I'm happy to take correction when it's factual.

To return to the thread... Plank Cap has highlighted areas that honest EK crews can see in the operation almost daily. There are no adjustments in the pipeline, which is the concern.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 02:00
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no wonder

No wonder EK management keeps you from your balls. What a silly bunch. It is just ridicoulous. What other professional would discuss like this in a forum. Proctologist would bitch about who removed the biggest emorroid ? Fatbus... tell us form what incredible breed of pilots you are from....
It is evident that not only there isn't a sefety culture ( try to mess up and you will be at their mercy...) but there is no culture tout court.
The lack of any balancing power ( i.e union) de facto annihilate the concept of safety.
They don't know the real meaning. EK is like Mc Donalds and is just seeking profit..at all cost period.
All that pantomime is in place to fullfill international legal requirement but has no substance. They run it on fear and stick period and you'll work with a monkey on your shoulder. Is that safe?
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 02:15
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I did say no offense, but if you must know , as a single group of pilots at EK US RJ pilots account for the most course failures, the most extra training , the most upgrade failures and the most complaints about the training dept. Hence if EK can avoid hiring RJ pilots they would but its all about filling seats.
A few years back it was 55T and 737 200 and I think DC9 were under 55 T so you can see that this is not a new subject.
But keep trying and good luck, rest assured things change overnight.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 09:23
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Fatbus

If that is the case,

then do you think that is because of the fact the guys are flying RJ in the USA? Plenty of RJ guys going through from around Europe... dont see why the US be any different.....?
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 14:18
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No Just safety culture a EK - period.........

By the way I went from LHS at EK to RHS CRJ9 :-) Much harder going that direction. That thing is a c*ck to fly.

Sacked by TCAS
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 17:00
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Sorry don't buy the upgrade failures thing because the majority haven't acquired the 4000 hours required to attempt the upgrade yet! They've been bypassed.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 08:32
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Thanks for the infos guys
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