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Air China B777 bases

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Air China B777 bases

Old 17th Oct 2011, 11:10
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Middle of $hit
Posts: 28
My last 12 months pay including profit share, Education support allowance, etc etc was a tad short of 220,000USD nett.

That doesn't take into account free accommodation, pick-up for work etc.
That ruffly translates into about $37,000 for Uncle Sam even with the foreign income exclusion if you are unfortunate enough to hold a US passport. Of course the free accommodation and rides to work are taxable income as well. How many are handing that amount over to the tax man?

The EK job might not be so attractive when the audits start.
cadidalhopper is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2011, 12:47
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 253
First of all maybe we shouldn't be listing our income on a public forum. If future joiners spent 20 minutes doing some research they would be able to get a reasonably accurate idea of the package. Accommodation is taxable but it's also deductible as a foreign resident. I can't remember the number offhand for Dubai (varies by city) but I believe you can write off up to 57,000usd per year in housing allowance. So the value of the EK housing falls within the deductible amount from what i understand.
Laker is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2011, 15:30
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: .
Posts: 173
What the IRSS doesnt know wont hurt them! Go to UAE and fall off the grid! Why volunteer this to the thieves in the US?
falcon10 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2011, 19:19
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 51
Really you are comparing apples and oranges here. For those that have had enough of life in the Middle East, a home based contract from an Asian airline might just be the ticket home. But you cannot compare an expat package to a commuting package and people that choose the latter will be looking at more than just the numbers, though that is the biggest consideration.
It really comes down to lifestyle at the end of the day and what your family considers to be a good one. Yes EK offers a lot of financial perks on paper but the reality on the ground is much different. Schooling is included but EK provides the base minimum for a British curriculum school, most of which are bursting at the seams, not all but good schools are difficult to get into. If you are looking past British curriculum, you will pay dearly for the priviledge of an American style education. You will be out of pocket for that portion of your contract. Housing can be a crap shoot and if you want anything other than company provided compounds, you won't get a decent family style house in Dubai without dipping into your pay cheque as well. Medical is good and this is a benefit that EK has been smart about. But tax free, Dubai is not. Yes the number you make and the figure that lands in your bank account will be the same BUT consumer goods are easily double that of most countries with no protection for consumer rights. Salik is just the start of all the hidden taxes you pay for the priviledge of living there. To stay sane and entertained in the city costs huge.....you can only walk along Jumeriah beach so many times before you need a little variety.
On top of which, the air quality is dire and living in air conditioning for 4 - 6 months per year does not add up to a lot of healthy living. Don't even get me started on the shit driving...
EK and Dubai are doable for awhile but not forever and whether you are willing to "jump ship", as they say, will depend a lot on how smart you have been with your finances during your tenure and what you consider quality of life for your family.
In the near to long-term future, the fight will be between the Middle East and Asia for experienced pilots. Those that choose to leave the pot of gold that is Dubai will do so for reasons extending well beyond the pay cheque. Asia knows this.
Bindair Dundat is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2011, 21:03
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Middle East
Posts: 87
Apples and Oranges.. I suppose so.

Depending on where you intend to live on this Air China contract (which I will look at thanks to this thread) the salary can be TAX FREE. Working for a Chinese company and living in Canada, your salary is not taxed by the Canadian Gov't. With the JFK base, this could work well if you lived in the east of the country... easy commute.

And some of the claims made here with respect to the EK package I think come up a bit short.

For instance .. Since when did EK Skippers get 1st Class Travel? When I left 2 years ago, it was Business Class UPGRADABLE to First, space available of course. F/O's were always Economy, upgradable to Business. And these were ONCE per year, I.E., vacation ticket home. Has this changed? If so, good for you guys!! (Traveling with a family of four, we never got upgraded).

The 12% Company portion of the Provident Fund ( I thought it was 10%?).... You keep it all ONLY if you complete 7 years in the company, 70% after 5 years. If you leave 1 day short of five years, you get zero. Has this changed?

And, as mentioned, the Education allowance can definitely leave you out of pocket, as it did me to the tune of almost 10,000$ (35,000dhs or so) my last year there for my 2 children, education and busing.

And yes, the cost of living in Dubai, as I recall well, went through the roof recently, (with the exception of rent/property but who would buy anything a few years ago.. or now?) Moving back to my home country, (as this basing contract allows) saves me at least, $1000.00 per month on every day cost of living as compared to Dubai, the greater part of that coming from the cost of groceries. And my mortgage rate is just under 3%.

If I have some of the EK figures above incorrect, please feel free to let me know!!

The two biggest negative factors to this Air China contract as I see it is that it ends at year 55, and the roster may be unworkable.

jinglied is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2011, 21:14
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 172
What an Emirates pilot has to take into account is how much he is working and what that translates into an hourly rate.
With lines north of 90 hours a month I am barely making $118 an hour. A figure which is what most international wideobdy FOs make. Yes they pay tax on that but they don't pay 2-3 months salary to educate their kids. They don't pay 5 bills when they go to the grocery store or out to eat in Dubai. They probably don't drop a brick when they do Christmas shopping at the local mall.
What I am saying is Dubai is very expensive as we all know.
Yes Typhoon and others are making good coin but what do they get for that coin. Lot's of hours and the privledge of living in a 3rd world country.
One has to wonder how long we all are going to live. Historically international pilots have only worked 75 hours a month. As our health bares witness we are over 20% of that monthly historical figure with many backside of the clock flying hours and mulitple time zone transgressions.
Are we going to live to 65, 70? I can't imagine living as long as our forefathers did and they did not live long and they had it loads easier than we do currently.
The money is good (not great) but what good is that money going to do you when you are either divorced because you are always away and when you do see the wife you are dog ass tired or you are pushing up daises?
Alconguin Crusader is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 00:22
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 51
Tax free while living in Canada whilst working for a Chinese company? I don't know about that one. If that was the case, ALOT of Canadian pilots would gladly go for this. I know that Korean used to have a tax treaty but that was abolished about a decade or so ago. Those buggars made off like bandits until that changed. But China.....never heard that one before.......
Bindair Dundat is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 07:41
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Everyone here is correct in their perspective. For some this is Nirvana, for others, it's day to day before they leave. But the tipping point for all is the rosters. No matter what the money, perks and free transportation is, a body cannot continue this pace for years on end. There is no end in sight for over 90-95 hours a month. Night in and night out, changing of time zones and hours on end in an aircraft enviornment.

It is not the terms and conditions of a contract that will force pilots to depart, it is the scheduling and rostering and the impact it has on their families.

So we can talk all we want about our compensation, our free car rides, free medical dental etc, etc. Unfortunately, it is effect that our rostering has on our health and family life. What is the price on that?
TangoUniform is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 07:56
  #29 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,842
As much as managment likes to pretend it is...95 hours a month is NOT sustainable.
SOPS is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 08:14
  #30 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
Posts: 676
A chap who has been here long enough to take the measure of our superiors said to me "somewhere right now, TC and his tennis-partners are agog at the hours we will do 'look, you can work these guys 95 hours, they don't resign and they don't die'. What would be their incentive to change the status quo? No room in the Lloyds Offshore account for more bonuses? No room at the villa to park additional black Range Rovers?"

If anything expect your workload to ratchet up experimentally to see how much more can be extracted.
Dropp the Pilot is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 09:46
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Why would u care??
Posts: 85
Very well illustrated post with regards to joining EK and living in the sandpit, a must read for new joiners. I'm in the exact predicament.

Bindair Dundat
Apparently it's true that the Canucks do get tax free doles from the Chinese, but not the Yanks. As with the Koreans, the reverse is true.

If only my partner agrees to return to Toronto AND Air China ups the T & Cs, I'll certainly give it a go.
break_break is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 15:44
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: eire
Posts: 162
Bear in mind gentlemen that it will take at least 6 months from assessment to job offer as Air China will only move as fast as the CAAC allow them to.
So dont burn any bridges during that time.
waffler is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2011, 09:37
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Twilight zone
Posts: 97
Tango Uniform has it right fellas...funny though, I remember when the 90+ hour rosters made their debut a couple of years ago, everybody said "this won't last long, it's not sustainable". But here we are over two years later...still have 90+ hour rosters.

The Dalai Lama said, when asked about humanity, said that mankind confuses him:

"Man sacrifices his health to make money and then later uses the money to recoup his health".
yada.yada.yada is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 00:13
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A land far, far away
Posts: 97

I'm pretty sure it's not "tax free" for the chinese company, that gig doesn't exist anymore. What actually exists is you are free from double taxation and the chinese give you a tax receipt for what you pay in china. So you might end up paying 10% over an above that depending on what province you live in, as well as your CPP and EI. Still better than KAL at this time, but they might have up the ante soon as I hear their floodgates are open with the USD plunge and 5 years of frozen pay.
Craic Ore is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 21:14
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Middle East
Posts: 87
With respect to taxation issues between Canada and China;

Craic Ore is quite correct in saying there are is no double taxation between the two countries. However, depending on the type of employment, business, or services you offer, the rules tend to change a bit. I have copied the following from the CRA website (The treaty between Canada and China) reflecting the taxation rules as they apply to pilots (and other aircraft/shipborne crew)

As follows :

1. Subject to the provisions of Articles 16, 18 and 19, salaries, wages and other similar remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment shall be taxable only in that Contracting State unless the employment is exercised in the other Contracting State. If the employment is so exercised, such remuneration as is derived therefrom may be taxed in that other Contracting State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment exercised in the other Contracting State shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned Contracting State if:

) the recipient is present in that other Contracting State for a period or periods not exceeding in the aggregate 183 days in the calendar year concerned; and
) the remuneration is paid by, or on behalf of, an employer who is not a resident of that other Contracting State; and
) the remuneration is not borne by a permanent establishment or a fixed base which the employer has in that other Contracting State.
3. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2, remuneration in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic by an enterprise of a Contracting State, shall be taxable only in that Contracting State.


It is in paragraph 3, you are taxed ONLY in the Contracting state, in this case, China.


Last edited by jinglied; 20th Oct 2011 at 23:06.
jinglied is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2011, 06:04
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Why would u care??
Posts: 85
Craic Ore and jinglied,
Thanks for saving me the trouble. It's now a toss between Downunder or Toronto.
I have no doubt the 90over hours shagging is here to stay. Enough said.

break_break is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2011, 07:34
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 199
Do any of you financial gurus out there know if the same applies to the Uk & Europe regarding the taxation situation.
Thanks in advance.
gardenshed is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2011, 15:22
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Age: 50
Posts: 323
Don't forget Yanks, you have to pay taxes on any income above $92,000 or so. That includes your education allowance, your spacious villa, dry cleaning and car transportation. In addition to the above if you are lucky enough to get audited by the IRS like so many US Airways pilots have you will be excluded from the $92,000 exemption when flying over international waters, whatever that means.
So Typhoon and the other Yanks claiming to make $268,000 or so don't forget to pay income taxes on that outrageous amount. You have to fund your wars and the IRS is opening a Field Office in lovely Dubai to help you depart with your money.
Good luck mate!
cerbus is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2011, 06:34
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A land far, far away
Posts: 97

I can't argue with what you posted, right from the horses mouth. I think the problem comes in when you have your family residing in Canada. If they are residents, so to are you. With that comes taxation. If you happen to chat with a tax attorney, please PM me, I'd be happy to find out more.
Craic Ore is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2011, 10:01
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Far and Height
Posts: 221
Maybe guys should open a thread about american taxation system,and leave this one free to talk about China Airlines...
QCM is offline  

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