Life at Emirates
What if the 67 percent population made of underpaid and exploited laborers get inspired by what is happening just passed the UAE borders?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if the 67 percent population made of underpaid and exploited laborers get inspired by what is happening just passed the UAE borders?
They have no 'rights'...except the expectation of following orders.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly intelligent people can post such utter crap.
MosEisely, Kapitanleutnant, Gortex and others.
What pay cut are you taking about? I've been here over 8 years and have never had a pay cut. Sure, no rise that year, but that is not a pay cut, is it? As for 'Lifestyle degredation policy', care to elaborate further please?
There is nothing in our 'contract' that specifically mentions the hours we can work.
There is nothing in our 'contract' relating to utilities allowance. Even with the cap, nobody has had to pay yet, have they?
There is nothing in our 'contract' about a yearly 3% rise.
Niave? No, just very little understanding of basic employment law. So, perhaps we should put this 'contract' understanding to bed once and for all.
Our 'Contract Adjustment Letter' is what we signed for and, apart from pay increases and improvements, nothing has changed. The only thing that will change is your class of travel when you upgrade. A villa will be provided if available but this is not 'contractual'. Only that 'accomodation is provided', as some of those less fortunate found out in 07/08. In any event, the Company has the right to alter our contract at any time without notice. That's not unique to Emirates or Dubai. It's happened to many thousands of pilots in the US and is happeneing right now with BA cabin crew. The only difference is that they are 'voicing' their displeasure through industrial action. Good luck with that here in the UAE!
I'm not defending the Company. In fact, I agree with a great majority of those that complain about the poor handling of accomodation issues, as well as the unsustainable monthly flying and duty hours. I also think it stinks that we haven't had a 3% step increment for the last 2 years, something that almost every other major airline gives regardless. I also couldn't give a rat's arse about our profit share and would far rather see a set 2 week bonus each year if we make target. For that though, working hours would return to around 78 hours per month. Lifestyle and family time has become far more valuable than extra dirhams in the bank, not that we actually get the 'extra' dirhams for the hours, just flying pay. The profit share, whatever it is, should be the same % regerdless of your pay grade. Pay, across the Company, should be transparent.
Unfortunately, those that hold the purse strings have become obsessed with the profit share, as have the majority of our office workers. They, unfortunately, do not see the damage that this short sighted and self serving benefit has on the final product and those that try to deliver it. We complain because we care. Most of us have come here for the long term and naturally, wish to see the Company thrive. It is in our interest that it does. However, most of our senior managers, non local, will use Emirates as a stepping stone or as a final fling into retirement. With the profit share they make, their vested interest in the Airline's survival is short term only.
I just wish that those same constant pprune whingers would spend a little more time on researching basic facts rather than the constant diatribe of negativity that pervades their misguided and often innaccurate statements.
Harry
MosEisely, Kapitanleutnant, Gortex and others.
What pay cut are you taking about? I've been here over 8 years and have never had a pay cut. Sure, no rise that year, but that is not a pay cut, is it? As for 'Lifestyle degredation policy', care to elaborate further please?
There is nothing in our 'contract' that specifically mentions the hours we can work.
There is nothing in our 'contract' relating to utilities allowance. Even with the cap, nobody has had to pay yet, have they?
There is nothing in our 'contract' about a yearly 3% rise.
Niave? No, just very little understanding of basic employment law. So, perhaps we should put this 'contract' understanding to bed once and for all.
Our 'Contract Adjustment Letter' is what we signed for and, apart from pay increases and improvements, nothing has changed. The only thing that will change is your class of travel when you upgrade. A villa will be provided if available but this is not 'contractual'. Only that 'accomodation is provided', as some of those less fortunate found out in 07/08. In any event, the Company has the right to alter our contract at any time without notice. That's not unique to Emirates or Dubai. It's happened to many thousands of pilots in the US and is happeneing right now with BA cabin crew. The only difference is that they are 'voicing' their displeasure through industrial action. Good luck with that here in the UAE!
I'm not defending the Company. In fact, I agree with a great majority of those that complain about the poor handling of accomodation issues, as well as the unsustainable monthly flying and duty hours. I also think it stinks that we haven't had a 3% step increment for the last 2 years, something that almost every other major airline gives regardless. I also couldn't give a rat's arse about our profit share and would far rather see a set 2 week bonus each year if we make target. For that though, working hours would return to around 78 hours per month. Lifestyle and family time has become far more valuable than extra dirhams in the bank, not that we actually get the 'extra' dirhams for the hours, just flying pay. The profit share, whatever it is, should be the same % regerdless of your pay grade. Pay, across the Company, should be transparent.
Unfortunately, those that hold the purse strings have become obsessed with the profit share, as have the majority of our office workers. They, unfortunately, do not see the damage that this short sighted and self serving benefit has on the final product and those that try to deliver it. We complain because we care. Most of us have come here for the long term and naturally, wish to see the Company thrive. It is in our interest that it does. However, most of our senior managers, non local, will use Emirates as a stepping stone or as a final fling into retirement. With the profit share they make, their vested interest in the Airline's survival is short term only.
I just wish that those same constant pprune whingers would spend a little more time on researching basic facts rather than the constant diatribe of negativity that pervades their misguided and often innaccurate statements.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 4th Mar 2011 at 11:12.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the "Lifestyle Degradation Policy" might be referring to (for one example) the meddling with rosters, such as manually inserting a turnaround into a string of days off. Whether this is "policy" or not is semantics, it certainly has the effect of degrading the lifestyle of those hoping to use the days off for some specific purpose aka escaping to reality for awhile.
The overtime threshold increase, aka "New Flight Time Target", where monthly work was increased from 78 hours to 92 has definitely had some detrimental effects on lifestyle. Not to mention on health, marital stress, and the ability of small children to recognize the grumpy, groggy zombie who occasionally drops by the villa that they used to call "daddy".
And on it goes. But hey we're all to blame for joining, right? It's all in the "contract"...
The overtime threshold increase, aka "New Flight Time Target", where monthly work was increased from 78 hours to 92 has definitely had some detrimental effects on lifestyle. Not to mention on health, marital stress, and the ability of small children to recognize the grumpy, groggy zombie who occasionally drops by the villa that they used to call "daddy".
And on it goes. But hey we're all to blame for joining, right? It's all in the "contract"...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dunesville
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry, you've made the point entirely. The originator of the thread gave a snapshot of EK now and omitted the points you have just made:
Nothing can or should be expected because the contract is always a work in progress, work that is to EKs benefit and the employees detriment.
There is nothing in our 'contract' that specifically mentions the hours we can work.
There is nothing in our 'contract' relating to utilities allowance. Even with the cap, nobody has had to pay yet, have they?
There is nothing in our 'contract' about a yearly 3% rise.
There is nothing in our 'contract' relating to utilities allowance. Even with the cap, nobody has had to pay yet, have they?
There is nothing in our 'contract' about a yearly 3% rise.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies Nolimits, I forgot to add your name to the list of constant whingers.
Name me an Airline out there that has actually 'improved' the overall package over the last 10 years or so. If I were running a Company, why would I adjust a contract to my detriment?
The problem that we're going to face, or our management more to the point, is recruiting high standard pilots into an airline that's still expanding. However, what they probably don't mention at recruitment days, but they should, is the increasing times to command. Currently 4-5 years but likely to be 7-9 years in a few years from now. Also, heavily dependant on which fleet you happen to be on when upgrading.
Still, if we believe half of what some of you guys threaten to do every week, there should be plenty of vacancies available!
Harry
Name me an Airline out there that has actually 'improved' the overall package over the last 10 years or so. If I were running a Company, why would I adjust a contract to my detriment?
The problem that we're going to face, or our management more to the point, is recruiting high standard pilots into an airline that's still expanding. However, what they probably don't mention at recruitment days, but they should, is the increasing times to command. Currently 4-5 years but likely to be 7-9 years in a few years from now. Also, heavily dependant on which fleet you happen to be on when upgrading.
Still, if we believe half of what some of you guys threaten to do every week, there should be plenty of vacancies available!
Harry
Join Date: May 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Name me an Airline out there that has actually 'improved' the overall package over the last 10 years or so.
Jetblue
Jetblue
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now now harry, I know it must frustrate you to have people state some of the facts of life but name-calling isn't the way to play..."whingers" implies some sort of misery, but truth be told I quite enjoy shining a light on the bull****. Seeing as you appear to fancy yourself something of an authority on things such as "basic employment law", I'm sure you can relate...
Perhaps I'm not quite as cynical as you, but even though I would never expect something as progressive as altruism to factor into any decisions made in Dubai, I do think you answered your own question as to "why would I adjust a contract to my detriment"?
With regards to other airlines adjusting pay thresholds - beyond the fact that Jetblue apparently adjusted theirs upwards to be where EK's WAS - the key difference is that there is at least a chance that that might be revised downwards in the future. At EK? Not a chance, not once they saw the huge profits to be made.This is the difference between a country with labour and legal protections and one without. (Since this thread is entitled, after all "Life at Emirates".)
PS WestJet is another airline whose package has improved in the last ten years. Oh, and not all the "threats" made weekly are idle. I should know!
Perhaps I'm not quite as cynical as you, but even though I would never expect something as progressive as altruism to factor into any decisions made in Dubai, I do think you answered your own question as to "why would I adjust a contract to my detriment"?
With regards to other airlines adjusting pay thresholds - beyond the fact that Jetblue apparently adjusted theirs upwards to be where EK's WAS - the key difference is that there is at least a chance that that might be revised downwards in the future. At EK? Not a chance, not once they saw the huge profits to be made.This is the difference between a country with labour and legal protections and one without. (Since this thread is entitled, after all "Life at Emirates".)
PS WestJet is another airline whose package has improved in the last ten years. Oh, and not all the "threats" made weekly are idle. I should know!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fack5
For starters, look at the overtime threshold change. We used to get paid for those hours above 80 or so and now we do not. We now regularly fly up to the threshold but get paid less than before.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is the worldwide pilot surplus ending?
All those new airplanes on order sure will be nice.
My, won't there be a whole bunch of new A380s on property over the next decade?
All the growth has been nice as well.
I don't think you can operate an airline without pilots, though.
To what extent has this airline grown as a result of a worldwide pilot surplus that must come to an end?
A carrier that depends upon expat pilots to run its fleet can ill afford to mistreat them.
Taking advantage of those without a choice will surely discourage those who do, and with retirements and increased flying in the developed world, with unions and better regulation, it may be that this airline will need to treat its pilots considerably better should it wish to attract qualified pilots.
The airline will always be able to find someone with the right certificate.
The question being whether you'd want to sit in the back with some of these folks operating the aircraft?
My, won't there be a whole bunch of new A380s on property over the next decade?
All the growth has been nice as well.
I don't think you can operate an airline without pilots, though.
To what extent has this airline grown as a result of a worldwide pilot surplus that must come to an end?
A carrier that depends upon expat pilots to run its fleet can ill afford to mistreat them.
Taking advantage of those without a choice will surely discourage those who do, and with retirements and increased flying in the developed world, with unions and better regulation, it may be that this airline will need to treat its pilots considerably better should it wish to attract qualified pilots.
The airline will always be able to find someone with the right certificate.
The question being whether you'd want to sit in the back with some of these folks operating the aircraft?
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry the codpiece (since we have resorted to name calling),
I think that nolimit and Fack have explained my points very well and need no further clarification. You just keep drinking that EKoolaid with the rest of the sheep and see where that gets us.
I think that nolimit and Fack have explained my points very well and need no further clarification. You just keep drinking that EKoolaid with the rest of the sheep and see where that gets us.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: i'm in the parking lot
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Name me an Airline out there that has actually 'improved' the overall package over the last 10 years or so.
Jetblue
Like Emirates premium pay trigger moving from 78 to 93 hours, JetBlue's trigger moved from 70 to 78 (I think). It did take a turn for the worst. Not an absolute horror, but still, worth mentioning.
and they received a big increase in pay
Name me an Airline out there that has actually 'improved' the overall package over the last 10 years or so.
Jetblue
Like Emirates premium pay trigger moving from 78 to 93 hours, JetBlue's trigger moved from 70 to 78 (I think). It did take a turn for the worst. Not an absolute horror, but still, worth mentioning.
and they received a big increase in pay
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nolimits
No, it frustrates me when people don't stick to the facts.
Yes, I doubt very much that the threshold for overtime will change back to the good ol' days but the current hours are simply unsustainable. We know that and our management know that. It's why a minimum of 32 new pilots come through the door every month, some months up to 48. There are no new aircraft arriving until September so that should see the hours come down for us. It has to. Not to the previous range but less than now. Your somewhat childish response that JetBlue is more likely to improve before us is rediculous and merely highlights the lack of thought that many negative posts contain. It's called clutching at straws. Flyer1015 gave us a valid answer. Accept it. As for WesJet, i've never even heard of them so I can't agree or disagree either way.
Applying Ultruism on contracts? Sure, nice thought but where have you been for the last 20 years. It's not just aviation that's changed, it's the World of doing business. Companies pay what they can get away with. Emirates is no different. In fact, it's pretty ruthless when it comes to business. See how quick they do salary deductions. Now compare that to how long it takes and how many emails you have to send when you need the money. Yet, compared to the majority of airlines that I could realistically be employed at, Emirates is still the best.
As an aside, a friend recently went through some huge personal issues. The Companies response and support has been outstanding.
Fack5
Yes, we're working harder. I don't like it any more then you. Doing the same work now for less than what we would have got had we been on the previous threshold. I'm well aware of that, but, a pay cut it isn't. There is one huge difference between feeling agrieved at having to work harder for the same money and having to work the same or harder for less money. Semantics? Not at all, just facts again. Turkish and Korean? Well, even if there has been a measurable improvement in the contract, my only response is that it must have been needed. If it's now that good, it makes you wonder why so many more haven't left EK for these wonder airlines. By the way, I know someone that's gone to Turkish and it was the biggest mistake of his entire life. Even more than marriage he said.
MosEisely
Is that it, the best you can do? That's just the sort of comment that must have some of our management wondering what kind of idiots they've employed. EKoolaid! Just gotta love that old nugget that pops up everytime you and your like can't think of a valid and educated response. What I find somewhat ironic is that it isn't myself that needs to consume it. I'm happy here remember.
Before you all post here again, pop over to the terms and Endearment threads and look up the 'RYR Management base visist'. Perhaps it may make you think twice before 'Submit Reply' is pressed.
Harry
No, it frustrates me when people don't stick to the facts.
Yes, I doubt very much that the threshold for overtime will change back to the good ol' days but the current hours are simply unsustainable. We know that and our management know that. It's why a minimum of 32 new pilots come through the door every month, some months up to 48. There are no new aircraft arriving until September so that should see the hours come down for us. It has to. Not to the previous range but less than now. Your somewhat childish response that JetBlue is more likely to improve before us is rediculous and merely highlights the lack of thought that many negative posts contain. It's called clutching at straws. Flyer1015 gave us a valid answer. Accept it. As for WesJet, i've never even heard of them so I can't agree or disagree either way.
Applying Ultruism on contracts? Sure, nice thought but where have you been for the last 20 years. It's not just aviation that's changed, it's the World of doing business. Companies pay what they can get away with. Emirates is no different. In fact, it's pretty ruthless when it comes to business. See how quick they do salary deductions. Now compare that to how long it takes and how many emails you have to send when you need the money. Yet, compared to the majority of airlines that I could realistically be employed at, Emirates is still the best.
As an aside, a friend recently went through some huge personal issues. The Companies response and support has been outstanding.
Fack5
Yes, we're working harder. I don't like it any more then you. Doing the same work now for less than what we would have got had we been on the previous threshold. I'm well aware of that, but, a pay cut it isn't. There is one huge difference between feeling agrieved at having to work harder for the same money and having to work the same or harder for less money. Semantics? Not at all, just facts again. Turkish and Korean? Well, even if there has been a measurable improvement in the contract, my only response is that it must have been needed. If it's now that good, it makes you wonder why so many more haven't left EK for these wonder airlines. By the way, I know someone that's gone to Turkish and it was the biggest mistake of his entire life. Even more than marriage he said.
MosEisely
Is that it, the best you can do? That's just the sort of comment that must have some of our management wondering what kind of idiots they've employed. EKoolaid! Just gotta love that old nugget that pops up everytime you and your like can't think of a valid and educated response. What I find somewhat ironic is that it isn't myself that needs to consume it. I'm happy here remember.
Before you all post here again, pop over to the terms and Endearment threads and look up the 'RYR Management base visist'. Perhaps it may make you think twice before 'Submit Reply' is pressed.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 5th Mar 2011 at 04:05.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry, it is quite unnecessary to say that you are happy here, that's obvious and telling. It would also seem that EK is more than happy with the idiots they have employed as evidenced by your enthusiastic contentment with bending over with a big dumb smile on your face everytime the master needs another pound of your flesh. Did you ever consider that the reason they are so quick to change your "contract" is because people like you simply prostrate yourself before the whip and thank the master for the opportunity to be walked on? Cowards and sycophants like you are a disgrace to our profession. On the bright-side, rest well knowing you are exactly the jellyfish they prize and rely on to spout the rhetoric and propaganda that keep the rest of us in line.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MosEisely
I can do nothing about my contract. Neither can you or the other 2600 pilots that are here. If the Company chooses to change it, I either accept it for what it is or leave. It really is that simple.
If you can be bothered to read and understand my previous posts, you should have grasped by now that I don't like everything about our T&C's. I am, however, intelligent enough to realise that despite that fact, overall we are much better off than many out there. I can't be unique. The majority of EK pilots must feel the same or else they'd have left too. They may not be entirely happy but our resignation rate, for what it's worth, is far lower than people like yourself would have us believe. Trying to drag the majority of us down with your constant negative and personal vitriolic attacks only demonstrates the same bullying behaviour that you acuse our employer of enforcing.
To have the audacity to call me a coward when you hide behind the anonymity that forums such as this provides, actually makes you the disgrace to our profession, not me. When you have the decency and maturity to hold an adult debate, then I will make the time to respond.
Until then, I will treat you with the contempt your post deserves.
Harry
I can do nothing about my contract. Neither can you or the other 2600 pilots that are here. If the Company chooses to change it, I either accept it for what it is or leave. It really is that simple.
If you can be bothered to read and understand my previous posts, you should have grasped by now that I don't like everything about our T&C's. I am, however, intelligent enough to realise that despite that fact, overall we are much better off than many out there. I can't be unique. The majority of EK pilots must feel the same or else they'd have left too. They may not be entirely happy but our resignation rate, for what it's worth, is far lower than people like yourself would have us believe. Trying to drag the majority of us down with your constant negative and personal vitriolic attacks only demonstrates the same bullying behaviour that you acuse our employer of enforcing.
To have the audacity to call me a coward when you hide behind the anonymity that forums such as this provides, actually makes you the disgrace to our profession, not me. When you have the decency and maturity to hold an adult debate, then I will make the time to respond.
Until then, I will treat you with the contempt your post deserves.
Harry
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the sandy.
Age: 55
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MosEisley - I agree with you.
It's hard to soar like an Eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
And before you shoot me down, Harry - I left because I was sick of seeing my terms and conditions eroded by those in the Ivory Tower.
Did my leaving make any difference? To EK - none whatsoever. To me - the world.
It's hard to soar like an Eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
And before you shoot me down, Harry - I left because I was sick of seeing my terms and conditions eroded by those in the Ivory Tower.
Did my leaving make any difference? To EK - none whatsoever. To me - the world.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I left because I was sick of seeing my terms and conditions eroded by those in the Ivory Tower.
I expect it was because of a slight mental defect...on your part (IE: a child), not the companies.
Get over it and leave those who choose to remain...alone.
Working for a middle east aircarrier requires a thick skin, something MW simply does not possess, nor is likely to in the future.
Too bad for him.