ATC
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ATC
I'm the first to say that guys & girls in ATC around the Gulf do a fantastic job.
However, what is with the queue jumping in the hold?
Today, we had just turned outbound the hold at Bubin when the guy about to enter behind us was sent straight through & we were turned in behind him. This is the second time this has happened to me at Bubin.
Anyone know why this would happen?
However, what is with the queue jumping in the hold?
Today, we had just turned outbound the hold at Bubin when the guy about to enter behind us was sent straight through & we were turned in behind him. This is the second time this has happened to me at Bubin.
Anyone know why this would happen?
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If the controller feels that the guy behind you will fit better in the sequence and thereby give the correct spacing to APP you'll be overtaken. But it is NOT airline specific nepotism.
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Dubai ATC on the whole is a reasonable outfit, the rest of the Gulf however does not live up to the standards expected of modern ATC. Controllers are lax lazy and generally unworthy of the trust we place in them. Doha probably ranks second followed by a dire Bahrain. Anywhere in Saudi is a joke regrettably, unanswered calls are common place and the lack of standard phraseology constantly leads to ambiguity and mistakes. Disappointingly change of any sort is slow, indeed recent steps regarding early descents particularly in Bahrain are inefficient at best and from this side of the fence entirely unnecessary wasting both fuel and time. 10 mile separation into Bahrain doesn't help and Gulf Air as usual are ineffectual, unable to apply pressure and correct the glaring faults and frustration pilots are forced to deal with on a daily basis. Can we hear from ATC on this and start a sensible and constructive discussion on how to improve?
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Controllers are lax lazy and generally unworthy of the trust we place in them. Doha probably ranks second followed by a dire Bahrain
Can we hear from ATC on this and start a sensible and constructive discussion on how to improve?
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However, what is with the queue jumping in the hold?
If, for example, you arrive at bubin at FL165, descending at the seemingly emirates' standard 300fpm and the East sector's seemingly standard 300kts (but don't say that on transfer)
for RWY30L and the guy behind is at a somewhat more reasonable 11000ft/250kts 
and descending reasonably then a) you will NOT fit in the sequence at that speed, b) you will NOT get the height off for a straight-in WHILE reducing speed to fit in with everyone else (yep, you're not alone out there) and c) it is far simpler to give you the required mileage to lose the altitude and fit you in as appropriate than to try to force a bad situation which will almost certainly not work, thus losing a gap on final and delaying everyone. And that's without the 380 ahead who SAYS he's doing 160 kts but is really doing 135 !
It may not have been like that but I've seen it sooo many times......
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Takingover
As stated, if the controller judges that the one just entering is going to fit perfectly behind the one ahead of YOU, then it is sometimes more efficient to allow the a/c to do that, let you run around the hold, then fit perfectly behind him. The culture at the UAE ACC is not such that: the landing order is strictly maintained by the order of arriving at the hold (as it is in other places). It takes a little adjustment to get used to, if you are used to it being so elsewhere. For example: There are 4 inbound in a bunch (all roughly the same speed for simplicity). 2 is 6nm behind 1, 3 is 4 nm behind 2, and 4 is 10nm behind 3. The sequence can be achieved by slowing 2 down, slowing and vectoring 3 and 4. OR just give 2 one holding pattern. 2 becomes last, and everyone else just continues on in. It can be more efficient to just muck one a/c around. It's a simplistic scenario, but I hope it conveys the idea. In other places I have worked, you wouldn't think of doing it this way, but it is just another way of achieving the sequence- especially when 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all EK a/c.
Anyone know why this would happen?
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Much easier to spin one aircraft than to vector three or four in an already tight airspace.
NOTE: As Short Approach stated, this will happen to EK more often simply because there is more of them. There is no favoritism at play here.
NOTE: As Short Approach stated, this will happen to EK more often simply because there is more of them. There is no favoritism at play here.
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Guy (and other ATC types) it might be helpful if we were told on entry that 300 knots was good (or 270..whatever) along with track miles to tdown. Most guys won't do 300 fpm if they know they need 1500fpm to make it. I always give 1000 fpm but I know many do less so they don't get low burning fuel.
It won't take long for everyone to do what you need if you tell them the track miles remaining. Or, conversly, with each new guy telling him 1000 fpm or more (which seems to be happening now with some controllers). We're like dogs--tell 'em enough times, till it becomes habit, and you'll get it everytime
It won't take long for everyone to do what you need if you tell them the track miles remaining. Or, conversly, with each new guy telling him 1000 fpm or more (which seems to be happening now with some controllers). We're like dogs--tell 'em enough times, till it becomes habit, and you'll get it everytime
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Trader,
I agree with you entirely - too few of us give track miles anything like as often as we should. Personally, I try to on first call but it isn't always possible.
As for the speed - that was my pitiful attempt at sarcasm - all to often, we are vectoring you guys all aove the sky at 230kts, trying to arrange a sequence and the center keeps everyone else coming in behind at 300+ kts until the last possible second 'cos it means they don't have to do, as one of my colleagues puts it " some of that ATC ****"!!
I agree with you entirely - too few of us give track miles anything like as often as we should. Personally, I try to on first call but it isn't always possible.
As for the speed - that was my pitiful attempt at sarcasm - all to often, we are vectoring you guys all aove the sky at 230kts, trying to arrange a sequence and the center keeps everyone else coming in behind at 300+ kts until the last possible second 'cos it means they don't have to do, as one of my colleagues puts it " some of that ATC ****"!!
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Guy, it appears that you just can not let a chance slip by to get a dig in at the ACC. If you want something then scan out, pre-plan, call us and you'll get it. If not, I will work the aircraft to my requirements as long as I need to.
EDIT: Just a reminder that BUBIN & DESDI is still inside the ACC's area of reponsibility.
EDIT: Just a reminder that BUBIN & DESDI is still inside the ACC's area of reponsibility.
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Guy Said
Mate if you are "Vectoring aircraft all over the sky at 230 kts" then the person in Dubai "RESPONSIBLE" for calling the spacing isn't doing his job.
Another nice attempt to deflect the blame,
and no I don't work in the UAE ACC.
Another nice attempt to deflect the blame,
and no I don't work in the UAE ACC.
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Guy, it appears that you just can not let a chance slip by to get a dig in at the ACC.
I'm simply venting my frustration that some people don't look beyond their own traffic - many's the time where an aircraft left to run through bubin will get a straight in approach, however, because it's sent direct sodad and left hi-speed 'til the last minute, that won't happen. (Yes, I know that's to avoid vectoring the one behind - maybe if HE was slower, it wouldn't be neccessary. etc. etc.)
We shouldn't really be trying to teach each other to suck eggs, I know but it does get frustrating.
It doesn't matter what the spacing is if the no1 through bubin arrives too fast and there are already 5 downwind from desdi.
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The guy will be at 250K from SODAD as per the arrival. What else are you expecting? If you want something other than your dictated spacing and speeds as per the arrivals you probably better ask for it. The flow arrangements into Dubai are certainly lacking but expecting the ACC to give you anything other than what you ask for is a bit rich.
My point is that just about any modern aircraft (don't get me started on a330s or a380s) will take quite a few miles to reduce from 300kts+ to 250. Giving them 250 5 miles before sodad doesn't cut it - they'll cross sodad at 290 or so, often way too high, with the prededing in the sequence 6 miles or so ahead and much slower.
The Star says 250kts AT sodad - NOT reduce to on crossing.
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Bending the Truth
Guy, sorry but your figures don't add up, or should that be subtract. Are you suggesting that a reduction over 5 miles, approx 45 seconds an aircraft is only going to lose 20 knots slowing from 310 to 290. I don't think so. As for the 6 miles statement........
Time for a new Name Guy D'Exaggerater.
Time for a new Name Guy D'Exaggerater.
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You radar guys, and director guys need to visit LHR or LGW to see how it should/can be done.
I've had 2 of the worst vectors over the last few days, one from a guy with an Oz accent, and one from a guy with a USA/Canadian accent. Whats so hard to understand...jets dont like to go down and slow down!
You need to appraise us of the bigger picture...give us track miles fer fecks sake! give us a clue, give us anything but crappy unrealistic vectors that make me try to mitigate your mistakes/poor technique.
Sorry if this is a rant, but it needs to be said...and yes I know its a tough job from the other side of the headphones..but come on..."EK blah blah expect 30R 25 trk miles" how hard is that?
I've had 2 of the worst vectors over the last few days, one from a guy with an Oz accent, and one from a guy with a USA/Canadian accent. Whats so hard to understand...jets dont like to go down and slow down!
You need to appraise us of the bigger picture...give us track miles fer fecks sake! give us a clue, give us anything but crappy unrealistic vectors that make me try to mitigate your mistakes/poor technique.
Sorry if this is a rant, but it needs to be said...and yes I know its a tough job from the other side of the headphones..but come on..."EK blah blah expect 30R 25 trk miles" how hard is that?
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EK is the Problem
Mr. Driver Dear Sir,
Everyone understands your bitch, and it is a valid one, however you obviously have no idea how things happen in the Magical Kingdom of Dubailand. This isn't Heathrow, or any major airport in any first world state, it is Dubailand.
Remember the Golden Rule. The man with the gold makes the rules.
Your big boss, point blank refuses to accept slot times, Premium pricing, CFMS etc. etc.
Therefore if "YOUR" Scheduling people continue to programme 20 or more arrivals in a 30 to 40 minute time frame, and allow everyone else to arrive at the same time what do you expect.
Everyone understands your bitch, and it is a valid one, however you obviously have no idea how things happen in the Magical Kingdom of Dubailand. This isn't Heathrow, or any major airport in any first world state, it is Dubailand.
Remember the Golden Rule. The man with the gold makes the rules.
Your big boss, point blank refuses to accept slot times, Premium pricing, CFMS etc. etc.
Therefore if "YOUR" Scheduling people continue to programme 20 or more arrivals in a 30 to 40 minute time frame, and allow everyone else to arrive at the same time what do you expect.
Last edited by Rule3; 18th Oct 2010 at 17:18. Reason: Typo
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Don't shoot at each other. We're both just messengers of a bigger problem.
I've worked on both sides and know how difficult it is. The real problem is that the higher ups of both of us front fighters are morons that were refused the active part due to insufficient skills. They are setting the rules, so don't be surprised they're inadequate.
I have no simple and quick solution to the problem either, all I know that it's not the fault of the voice coming out of the speaker.
I've worked on both sides and know how difficult it is. The real problem is that the higher ups of both of us front fighters are morons that were refused the active part due to insufficient skills. They are setting the rules, so don't be surprised they're inadequate.
I have no simple and quick solution to the problem either, all I know that it's not the fault of the voice coming out of the speaker.
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Rule 3, I think perhaps you have missed my point.....
I'm having a moan about the poor standard I've experienced with respect to tactical vectoring, and the unrealistic expectation of certain controllers in terms of us being able to manage our profile/energy/speed.
I accept wholeheartedly the limitations and stresses on the system thanks to EK's hub principle, and of course the lack of any real management plan..
All that being understood, I still fail to see why a guy working approach can't give a reasonably accurate indication of track miles from perhaps 6-8000ft (20-30 miles etc) so that we drivers can hit our energy gates in an efficient and accurate fashion. It happens in plenty of other places, with many many more airspace constraints than in the terminal area here in DXB.
Certainly I accept that you guys are under as much pressure as us to maximize flows, but it works very very well at places like LHR, LGW, FRA, and CDG (when they arent on strike) when aircraft are picked off the holds...and streamed in...so why not here?
It appears to me that the prefered method is the "made in the USA" technique of cutting and chopping guys on all sorts of headings, speeds etc...then issuing and expecting us to achieve the required speed constraints and profiles despite being kept 2-3000 feet high, and 80kts fast
Tell me I'm being unreasonable?
I'm having a moan about the poor standard I've experienced with respect to tactical vectoring, and the unrealistic expectation of certain controllers in terms of us being able to manage our profile/energy/speed.
I accept wholeheartedly the limitations and stresses on the system thanks to EK's hub principle, and of course the lack of any real management plan..
All that being understood, I still fail to see why a guy working approach can't give a reasonably accurate indication of track miles from perhaps 6-8000ft (20-30 miles etc) so that we drivers can hit our energy gates in an efficient and accurate fashion. It happens in plenty of other places, with many many more airspace constraints than in the terminal area here in DXB.
Certainly I accept that you guys are under as much pressure as us to maximize flows, but it works very very well at places like LHR, LGW, FRA, and CDG (when they arent on strike) when aircraft are picked off the holds...and streamed in...so why not here?
It appears to me that the prefered method is the "made in the USA" technique of cutting and chopping guys on all sorts of headings, speeds etc...then issuing and expecting us to achieve the required speed constraints and profiles despite being kept 2-3000 feet high, and 80kts fast
Tell me I'm being unreasonable?