EK Command upgrade and fleet transfer policy FCI 2009-046
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smiffy,
6 years for a widebody command is not bad, how long would it take you in the US?
if EK had RJ's you could apply as a DEC but unfortunately EK doesn't have any.
it will take the cadets much more than 6 years to get their command, but when they get it they know the plane, the routes and the company better than anybody else.
did 2 G/A last week and about 5-6 within the last year, all with former RJ captains at the controls, every time because they couldnt meet the stabilization criteria.
6 years for a widebody command is not bad, how long would it take you in the US?
if EK had RJ's you could apply as a DEC but unfortunately EK doesn't have any.
it will take the cadets much more than 6 years to get their command, but when they get it they know the plane, the routes and the company better than anybody else.
did 2 G/A last week and about 5-6 within the last year, all with former RJ captains at the controls, every time because they couldnt meet the stabilization criteria.
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Goretex,
What exactly was it that you were doing while these RJ guys were 'setting up' the unstable approach?
The concept of operation in a multi-crew aircraft is that the pilot not flying provides support to the pilot flying.
This includes recognizing the development of an unsafe/unstable approach and providing assistance/information/guidance to avoid it...
What exactly was it that you were doing while these RJ guys were 'setting up' the unstable approach?
The concept of operation in a multi-crew aircraft is that the pilot not flying provides support to the pilot flying.
This includes recognizing the development of an unsafe/unstable approach and providing assistance/information/guidance to avoid it...
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Really!! Suprised about the ga's. Maybe get in there a bit earlier? I'm paid to get the thing there, not to train FO's and as soon as I am out of my comfort zone I say so pretty darn quick.
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Goretex,
Ordinarily, maybe, 6 years isn't bad to a WB command and I can't answer for how long it would take in the US cos i'm not a citizen! I do, however, object when arbitrary rules are written after the event that suddenly require me to do almost three times the RHS time when many others before me haven't needed to do this. We were all attracted out here by a certain set of terms and conditions and it is galling to see these being eroded almost daily.
Yes, the energy thing needs to be learned and assimilated with these machines and EVERY approach needs careful preparation and planning; yes, I have had maybe 2 or 3 approaches that were getting 'interesting' but a combination of recognising that it was going wrong, a lack of 'flight deck ego' and proper crew co-ordination meant that none of these have resulted in either go-arounds or 'tea and coffee with no biscuits' in the chief pilots office! Surely this is what a 3 to 4 year (as advertised and sold) RHS apprenticeship is all about? Otherwise why stipulate all of the various experience requirements in the first place? Given 20 years plus in aviation and 10 years in command etc etc - exactly how many years is it to be before I am considered 'trustworthy' flying aeroplanes over 55 tonnes?
I accept that the economic slowdown has indeed delayed my command upgrade chances; what is anathema to me is that when the opportunities arise, will I be in a position to be allowed to take advantage of them, all because I did not possess 4000 hours hard-time? What is so magic about 4000 hours more when you have (a) got in excess of 10000 hours and (b) the last 3 years would have been spent flying over 55 tonnes?
I am still in the middle of my 'apprenticeship' and I am the first to admit that I have lots to learn - but I am learning, and fast!! What I really do object to is people in this outfit who lump all 'RJ Pilots' together and tar them with the same brush! We are not all 'aviation pariah'; flying short haul, multi-sector days in regional jets in the UK was demanding work requiring a good standard of airmanship. I strive to bring my experiences forward with me and to learn all of the time. At some point you have to stop looking at what a person has done and start taking a look at what they are doing. An aeroplane is, in essence, still an aeroplane - no matter how much it weighs. Learn where it will bite you and develop strategies to avoid/overcome this. Then get on with the career. Why all this bloody mystique over masses and masses of 'hard-time'?
Rant over! Guess that was good to get off my chest! Next....
Ordinarily, maybe, 6 years isn't bad to a WB command and I can't answer for how long it would take in the US cos i'm not a citizen! I do, however, object when arbitrary rules are written after the event that suddenly require me to do almost three times the RHS time when many others before me haven't needed to do this. We were all attracted out here by a certain set of terms and conditions and it is galling to see these being eroded almost daily.
Yes, the energy thing needs to be learned and assimilated with these machines and EVERY approach needs careful preparation and planning; yes, I have had maybe 2 or 3 approaches that were getting 'interesting' but a combination of recognising that it was going wrong, a lack of 'flight deck ego' and proper crew co-ordination meant that none of these have resulted in either go-arounds or 'tea and coffee with no biscuits' in the chief pilots office! Surely this is what a 3 to 4 year (as advertised and sold) RHS apprenticeship is all about? Otherwise why stipulate all of the various experience requirements in the first place? Given 20 years plus in aviation and 10 years in command etc etc - exactly how many years is it to be before I am considered 'trustworthy' flying aeroplanes over 55 tonnes?
I accept that the economic slowdown has indeed delayed my command upgrade chances; what is anathema to me is that when the opportunities arise, will I be in a position to be allowed to take advantage of them, all because I did not possess 4000 hours hard-time? What is so magic about 4000 hours more when you have (a) got in excess of 10000 hours and (b) the last 3 years would have been spent flying over 55 tonnes?
I am still in the middle of my 'apprenticeship' and I am the first to admit that I have lots to learn - but I am learning, and fast!! What I really do object to is people in this outfit who lump all 'RJ Pilots' together and tar them with the same brush! We are not all 'aviation pariah'; flying short haul, multi-sector days in regional jets in the UK was demanding work requiring a good standard of airmanship. I strive to bring my experiences forward with me and to learn all of the time. At some point you have to stop looking at what a person has done and start taking a look at what they are doing. An aeroplane is, in essence, still an aeroplane - no matter how much it weighs. Learn where it will bite you and develop strategies to avoid/overcome this. Then get on with the career. Why all this bloody mystique over masses and masses of 'hard-time'?
Rant over! Guess that was good to get off my chest! Next....
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Goretex
Sorry, forgot to mention - have PNF'd 2 GAs and had the Captain catch the cabin up in the descent (despite multiple prompts from me about it being way past TOD, thus requiring a high ROD) in the last 6 or 7 months - all with highly experienced WB captains, none of whom heeded my concerns early enough.
So, you see, it is perhaps wrong to generalise! You operate aeroplaes daily and these things happen and you fill your 'experience bucket' a little higher....but don't generalise that these things are all down to 'RJ pilots'. Mistakes are not their exclusive domain.
Sorry, forgot to mention - have PNF'd 2 GAs and had the Captain catch the cabin up in the descent (despite multiple prompts from me about it being way past TOD, thus requiring a high ROD) in the last 6 or 7 months - all with highly experienced WB captains, none of whom heeded my concerns early enough.
So, you see, it is perhaps wrong to generalise! You operate aeroplaes daily and these things happen and you fill your 'experience bucket' a little higher....but don't generalise that these things are all down to 'RJ pilots'. Mistakes are not their exclusive domain.
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Good one Smiffy. Some of my most challenging flying was in smaller narrow body aircraft. Here, seems 90% of our flying is "cleared for the ILS, call established". Of course there are the exceptions and some crews have had some difficulty.
Now Goretex, what in the world were you doing? Have your head up your third brown eye? C'mon man, it all starts with the very first briefing..."drop the gear at 3000 ft. if you have to, to be stabilized". Whatever.
This place is getting more like Cathay everyday. I benefited from the previous policy, but this is a bit much when decisions were made on "promises" told. Economic slowdowns are one thing, but some arbitrary flight hour number.....I will take an guy with 10,000 hours with a varying background in lousy weather conditions half the year over some pilot that has flown ONE aircraft, long haul only, with less than a quarter of the approaches and landings some RJ guy has.
Now Goretex, what in the world were you doing? Have your head up your third brown eye? C'mon man, it all starts with the very first briefing..."drop the gear at 3000 ft. if you have to, to be stabilized". Whatever.
This place is getting more like Cathay everyday. I benefited from the previous policy, but this is a bit much when decisions were made on "promises" told. Economic slowdowns are one thing, but some arbitrary flight hour number.....I will take an guy with 10,000 hours with a varying background in lousy weather conditions half the year over some pilot that has flown ONE aircraft, long haul only, with less than a quarter of the approaches and landings some RJ guy has.
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I have flown with lots of ex RJ guys and yes, a few are on a steep learning curve. But for the most part, they are good guys with good attitudes and that is all anyone can ask of them. Emirates hired them and according to EK, all F/O's are deemed suitable and they predict a successful 'apprenticeship' to command.
So what do these new rules signify? EK now deems a large percentage of F/O's as unsuitable for command. Either EK got it wrong in hiring some people or they have a hidden agenda.
If some people are struggling, then Training should identify the individuals and provide adequate training and supervision to rectify any weaknesses. Clearly that is beyond the capabilities of EK so they lump everyone together and use the lowest common denominator. It is piss poor management in my opinion. Almost every single F/O I have ever flown with, would do fine as a Captain (some better than others of course) There are a few oddballs who should never sit in the LH seat, but that is statistically inevitable.
The years ahead, for present and future F/O's at EK, looks pretty bleak. Just another reason to seriously review the desirability of this employer.
So what do these new rules signify? EK now deems a large percentage of F/O's as unsuitable for command. Either EK got it wrong in hiring some people or they have a hidden agenda.
If some people are struggling, then Training should identify the individuals and provide adequate training and supervision to rectify any weaknesses. Clearly that is beyond the capabilities of EK so they lump everyone together and use the lowest common denominator. It is piss poor management in my opinion. Almost every single F/O I have ever flown with, would do fine as a Captain (some better than others of course) There are a few oddballs who should never sit in the LH seat, but that is statistically inevitable.
The years ahead, for present and future F/O's at EK, looks pretty bleak. Just another reason to seriously review the desirability of this employer.
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Goretex Habibi, you are not exactly doing what you are paid to do, are you. 2 G/A in a week, you must be unlucky 
If you are in command be assertive and take control if the guy in the other seat is making a right hash of an approach. I have had to do this twice with RJ pilots from the colonies. Sorted it out then, handed back control.
Never done a G/A in my 5 years here habib, no tea and biccies either
SyB
If you are in command be assertive and take control if the guy in the other seat is making a right hash of an approach. I have had to do this twice with RJ pilots from the colonies. Sorted it out then, handed back control.
Never done a G/A in my 5 years here habib, no tea and biccies either
SyB
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A 380 driver.
Im afraid you are wrong about the 3000 hrs on ek type for A380 f/os. Just checked with the boss and he confirmed with AAR that it applies to us as well i.e A380 f/os
Im afraid you are wrong about the 3000 hrs on ek type for A380 f/os. Just checked with the boss and he confirmed with AAR that it applies to us as well i.e A380 f/os
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Hi,
there will be a few British Airways guys/girls who will be close to retirement age and might be tempted with a redundancy package from there due to the curent situation.
They would then be in the correct age bracket and have the required experience on an EK aircraft type enabling them to join as a DEC !.
there will be a few British Airways guys/girls who will be close to retirement age and might be tempted with a redundancy package from there due to the curent situation.
They would then be in the correct age bracket and have the required experience on an EK aircraft type enabling them to join as a DEC !.
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Good and Bad
Good and bad F/O's and Captains. Normal in all companies. But what is serious at EK is that again last week a Captain got called in for tee and biscuits because he was reported by a less than average SFI F/O. Actually i also know an other Captain that had similar story with the same SFI F/O. Did not end up in the office but the same name came up in a debriefing. It's division time. People will start mistrusting each other. It's a mess. Safety is not a priority in the flight decks when people are reporting without telling the other party. Very sad and unprofessional. If you have something to say speak out in the name of safety. The good news is that The Captain felt like he received some support from the company when the F/O had to answer questions in front of the Captain about is report. I think he did not expect to be called in as well. It just shows you how below average this guys is.
True story i swear!
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True story i swear!
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This "culture" of trainers "reporting" pilots but not listing said complaints on the appropriate training forms or (maybe even) debriefing the trainee seems to be a new phenomenon at EK. It is my understanding that an individual can get reasonable scores and comments on a training (if you can call what EK does "training"
) session and subsequently the trainer either writes an email, calls the office or walks in with new, additional negative comments. This reporting culture is completely out-of-hand.
With regard to training I am not surprised that this sort of thing is tolerated. If you get a chance and feel like doing it look up the staff numbers and seniority of the CFIAB, the deputy CFIAB, the CFIB and the deputy CFIB. I never realised that this was considered acceptable in Her Majesty's RAF which apparently is a requirement for an office job in training.
) session and subsequently the trainer either writes an email, calls the office or walks in with new, additional negative comments. This reporting culture is completely out-of-hand. With regard to training I am not surprised that this sort of thing is tolerated. If you get a chance and feel like doing it look up the staff numbers and seniority of the CFIAB, the deputy CFIAB, the CFIB and the deputy CFIB. I never realised that this was considered acceptable in Her Majesty's RAF which apparently is a requirement for an office job in training.
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I agree ATSU, a bit supicious with all hired in the same batch. Some good CRM there...
A senior TRE rolled his eyes to me as to the said appointments a year back. I'm supposed consult this guy who I just trained for TRI last year? Ya. It's a function of a rapidly growing immature airline. Fortunately most trainers are very good but some should have never been given the opportunity.
A senior TRE rolled his eyes to me as to the said appointments a year back. I'm supposed consult this guy who I just trained for TRI last year? Ya. It's a function of a rapidly growing immature airline. Fortunately most trainers are very good but some should have never been given the opportunity.
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It was on a flight.
The report was done on a normal line flight. The worst is that he was augmenting the captain he reported. Very sad 
Man is from the land of the fries and good cheese. (Alteon man)
Be careful out there!
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Man is from the land of the fries and good cheese. (Alteon man)Be careful out there!
Keep Discovering
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Back to the subject. I am guessing that the sudden fall in demand for new Captains at EK is at the heart of this new "policy" regarding promotion to Captain. Over the next few years we can expect to see a huge drop in upgrades at EK.
Keeping that in mind, it appears the powers that be have decided to take the more experienced F/Os. They simply come up with some managers idea of experience, set up a policy, and let the chips fall where they may. It is as simple as that.
Now before someone says yeah, but what about a guy who has this experience, or this guy who has that many hours doing whatever, they simply do not have the manpower to go through every case in detail and decide who qualifies and who doesn't. The result is that some guys who are more than capable WILL get bypassed.
On a case by case basis it is definatly unfair but if you have any ideas about being treated fair at EK then think again. The managers of Flight Ops have the same view of its pilots as the managers of catering have about the price of bananas.
They do not care. The terms of our employment will continue to degrade to the point where they have trouble crewing their shiny jets, then will start to improve until there is no more trouble.
Bananas my friends, Bananas!
7
Keeping that in mind, it appears the powers that be have decided to take the more experienced F/Os. They simply come up with some managers idea of experience, set up a policy, and let the chips fall where they may. It is as simple as that.
Now before someone says yeah, but what about a guy who has this experience, or this guy who has that many hours doing whatever, they simply do not have the manpower to go through every case in detail and decide who qualifies and who doesn't. The result is that some guys who are more than capable WILL get bypassed.
On a case by case basis it is definatly unfair but if you have any ideas about being treated fair at EK then think again. The managers of Flight Ops have the same view of its pilots as the managers of catering have about the price of bananas.
They do not care. The terms of our employment will continue to degrade to the point where they have trouble crewing their shiny jets, then will start to improve until there is no more trouble.
Bananas my friends, Bananas!
7
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Gregale,
Unfortunately most are good guys and do some good work. This is a case of a couple guys with big ego's in the wrong place,but with the new policy I'm sure all will quit in order to get the hours for upgrade and the bad apples will be no longer SFI's and will not become TRI's because of the said problems.
Unfortunately most are good guys and do some good work. This is a case of a couple guys with big ego's in the wrong place,but with the new policy I'm sure all will quit in order to get the hours for upgrade and the bad apples will be no longer SFI's and will not become TRI's because of the said problems.
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I fail to see why someone should now 'strive' for the new command goalposts?????
To change your lifestyle strategy just to suit the scum-pany's current goalposts is simply naive. Every shred of evidence indicates they will not be the same in a given time frame. To strive to work more hours at the sufferance of your family/recreational lifestyle is a fool's errand.
You would simply be capitulating to their (read AAR) 'fire-fighting' mis-management strategy.
To change your lifestyle strategy just to suit the scum-pany's current goalposts is simply naive. Every shred of evidence indicates they will not be the same in a given time frame. To strive to work more hours at the sufferance of your family/recreational lifestyle is a fool's errand.
You would simply be capitulating to their (read AAR) 'fire-fighting' mis-management strategy.