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An outside view of Dubai

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

An outside view of Dubai

Old 15th Apr 2009, 16:05
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How many of the folks posting in this thread acutally live in Dubai????

And to say that the same doesn't go on in places in Western Europe and the US is laughable. The US exploit mexican workers.... never! Eastern Europeans sold into the sex slave industry in the UK never!!

Dubai ain't great has many problems and could do with sharpening up on human rights of that there is no doubt.... but last time I checked they hadn't killed thousands of innocent civilians in unjustified wars in parts of the world most US and European citizens don't even visit.... it is all a question of perspective.... some of these articles on Dubai totally lack perspective.

One could say best to get your own shop in order before us folks in the western world start preaching about how others run their affairs.

P.S. yeah the corporates out here are lying gits... but so are managments all over the world. Ryanair ain't exactly done much for pilot T&Cs etc.
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Old 15th Apr 2009, 16:18
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You mean Mexicans living in camps with their passports taken away, not having money to return to Mexico?

You mean that a prostitute in Europe couldn't walk to the nearest police station and quit with everything?

You mean that the respective goverments would support this?

That is laughable...

I am not denying any of your historic arguments, but it is a pathetic excuse for todays problems in DXB.
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Old 15th Apr 2009, 16:36
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The Mexicans

in the US go there voluntarily and take work at lower wages illegally and send a lot of money back to old corrupt Mexico. If they get caught they will be shipped back. But even illegally they have basic human rights which you do not have in Dubai and not in the whole GCC countries. It is not only Dubai but the whole GCC. The practices are disgusting, the workers, maids are exploited and abused. The most racist place I ever visited on this planet.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 01:56
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Unfortunitly the article reflects the true Dubai that I have seen, having experianced some of the things written about personaly. The explotation of workers is massive. I helped some friends in the Philippines get a family member back from Dubai. She was recruited for a maids job. The explotation started with the recruiter demanding $1000 USD to get her the job, then the bribes she had to pay to get her passport and OFW docs in a timely manner. Then the imigration officals at the Manila airport demanded a bribe. She showed up in Dubai and was met and her passport was taken. They put her to work for a british couple. They did not treat her to badly but payed the company for her services. The Company did not pay her her full wages, they kept making up new fees and expenses to charge her. She complained to the couple but they did not do anything. She went to the Philippine workers office and they did not care either. They even told her to stop complaining or she would be sent home, to which she replied okay send me home. All they did then was tell her to leave the office and quit making trouble. We flew to Dubai and talked with the british couple. They seemed a little ashamed of not doing anything but helped us with the company to get the maids passport and paperwork to leave. When we got back to the Philippines she complained about the company but no one cared because they are paying big fees and bribes to the Philippine goverment and officials. The bottom line is everyone is making money off of these workers and it is in everyones financial interest to continue it. While in Dubai I did talk to a large number of OFW's. It seemed that about half were getting payed what had been promised. But there were a couple of real horror stories also. But comparing this to Mexican illegals is a joke.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 05:15
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Okay I withdraw the Mexican comment.... I am NOT defending these practices in Dubai they are appauling.... the government should be ashamed

My point is I am fed up with people continually slagging off everything about a place many have rarely if ever visited. You can find an evil/dark side to every nation. These articles often have no "balance" at all. The west has an appauling track record in many many parts of the world.... I won't go into legacy of the Gulf war, UK pulling out of India/creation of Pakistan, Israel..... non of those involve human rights abuses!? geez even the Brits in the UAE less than a 100 years ago were awful. You can see why many arabs get pissed off given the legacy the US/UK has created in many parts of the middle east.

Exploitation happens everywhere..... for example US/Western European consumers seem very happy buying goods churned out of Asian sweat shops.... but of course that is not fuelling exploitation is it..... hypocrites. You turn a blind eye to where you support exploitation indirectly and preach a "I am holier than thou" to others as you lap up the benefits.

And despite all the moaning about how horrible it is on here how many of you have been motivated to do anything to help the workers in Dubai other than slatch?? (Good work by the way and I apologise on behalf of the Brits among us who are appaulled at the attitude of the British couple you mention..... they are just as responsible in my eyes as the "company" that employeed her)
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 05:38
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Why don't you just come to Dubai and see the 'dark side' yourselves rather than pontificating on PPRuNe. Once you've seen it, you can then decide how 'dark' it actually is - maybe just dirty grey or maybe as black as the most black thing since black as was invented - the thing is you have to decide!!!
IMPORTANT: do come and see Dubai before you decide to come and work here, bring the wfe if you can. Dubai ain't as rosey as some people think but on the other hand it is not completely awful as others say (though they do try hard!!)
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 11:31
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Darkside of Dubai

and again the WHOLE GCC. The same dreadful practices of human trafficking, slavery, abuse. And exactly as slatch mentioned it: The state sponsored slave system also provides loopholes for all the other crooks, so called employment agencies that steal every penny from this poor souls. In my compound almost everyone "owns" a maid. They are working 24 hours living in a so called tiny maids-room where I would not even dare to put a dog in. They are not allowed to leave the house, some are even locked in during the day. It is unimaginable what is going on here. The pay is around 600 Dhs a month, no telling how much they still have to pay to the agency.
I agree that the Americans did and do a lot of criminal things in the Middle East and all over the World, but you cannot compare this to a corrupt system that is rotten in the core. As long as the lawmakers in the GCC do not change this inhumane system things will never change to the better in Noeatinham.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 12:22
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"Why don't you just come to Dubai and see the 'dark side' yourselves rather than pontificating on PPRuNe." I think that most people in this thread have been several/too many times in DXB. Professional pilots visit many places

Somebody asked "how many of you have been motivated to do anything to help the workers in Dubai other than slatch??" What people did here in this thread was denying it/painting a non trivial situation "that happens everywhere".

I can appreciate an answer where I am told that things are fortunately not that bad and the news papers are just highlighting exceptions, etc... Or an answer that something must be done or doom will prevail. Not an answer where DXB is justified with examples of Mexican camps, forced prostitution, or made look non trivial by mentioning the holocoast. That is ridiculous. And in no way a justification.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 15:06
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Enough already.

This J. Hari guy has written some drivel not even fit for the National Inquirer. From his opening paragraphs about Shaik Mohammed looking down on everyone from every other building to the South Africans beating up their maids to Canadians living in Range Rovers, the only thing worse than the content of his article is the people regurgitating it on PPRuNe. Oh, and let's not forget his journalistic integrity by going to Double Decker's to ask the inebriated patrons what they think about Dubai. Right on!

Now in no way do I want to make light of the the unfortunate and miserable living conditions of many of Dubai's poor. However, anyone of us can write gut wrenching stories about the plight of the suppressed, oppressed and forgotten underclass in any country, first, second or third world. And remember, the evil is not all in Dubai, it starts back in India, or Sri Lanka, or the Philippines, where the uneducated are screwed by their own, by promises of riches and a bright future for just a small cash deposit.

Shadenfreude seems to be the sport of the moment, where all the armchair quarterbacks are gleefully sitting back in their trailerparks, rubbing their hands together, saying "Ha, I knew it, I told you so!" Most have probably never even been to Dubai. Or those that have probably ran away with their tails between their legs, blaming others for their own failures. Same same.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 15:09
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Originally Posted by GBB View Post
Jet II,

Did you actually read and try to understand what that poor guy from Bangladesh had to say?
Yes I know exactly what he was saying - and I am sorry for him. But people get ripped off in every country - people pay thousands to 'agents' to get into Europe and get ripped off. The idea that this behavior is somehow the norm for workers in Dubai is plain wrong.

It's the same with the stories about maids getting abused - it happens everywhere, The last story I read was about a maid getting abused by her employer who happened to be Australian - if they are type to do things like that then they will do it where ever they are living be it Hong Kong, Singapore or Timbukto.

For those posters living in Europe, dont believe everything you read in the newspapers - if you want to learn the truth then come to Dubai and actually talk to the workers who are here.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 15:33
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Of course this sort of thing never happens in the "democratic" UK, where also MPs don't embezel every penny they possibly can from the hard up tax payer by pretending that their sister's fridge is their main residence whilst "employing" every member of the family to get as many snouts in the trough as possible, and rapists and murderers aren't able to walk free 'cause there's no room in the prisons and in which they will suddenly find room if you dare not to pay your council tax!............sorry for the thread drift but just wanted to point out that there is corruption everywhere and I think Dubai is getting a disproportionate amount of bad press at the moment.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 16:46
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He who casts the first stone

Unfortunately, no idea where this originated, so I can't attribute it. Just one of those emails forwarded an infinite number of times until it landed in my inbox. Instead of trashing it I actually paused and read it.

"If you think Dubai is bad, just look at your own country

Say that Id written that in first world Britain there are 380,00 homeless

Friday, 10 April 2009

I called a British journalist friend of mine and said: "I'm going to write an article about London, the same way your compatriots write about Dubai." By the time I was back at home I had come to my senses, it's not fair to London, a city so dear to my heart, or Londoners to be judged by the actions of a few. It's easy to generalise about a country when figures are manipulated to sensationalise and sell papers.

Say for example that I had written an article that states that, in wealthy first world Britain there are 380,000 homeless people, many of them mentally ill, starving and abandoned in sub-zero temperatures to live on the streets.

Say then that I wrote an article that states that Britain, the so called "jail capital of Western Europe" sentenced in 2006 alone a staggering additional 12,000 women to prison and that up to seven babies a month are born in jail where they spend their crucial first months.

I could have written an article that stated Britain, victor in the Second World War, had given refuge to 400 Nazi war criminals, with all but one of them getting away with it. Or one stating that the number of Indians who died while serving the British Empire, to build your Tube and grow your tea, is so large it is simply unquantifiable by any historian.

Or say I write an article about the 2.5 million-strong Indian volunteer army who served Britain during the Second World War, where 87,000 of them died for their occupiers' freedom and yet until recently those who survived continued to be discriminated against in pay and pension.

I could have written an article that stated that, in civilised Britain, one in every 23 teenage girls had an abortion and in 2006 more than 17,000 of the 194,000 abortions carried out in England and Wales involved girls below the age of 18.

I could have written an article stating that Britain, the human rights champion, not wanting to get its hands dirty, had resorted to secretly outsourcing torture to Third World states under the guise of rendition by allowing up to 170 so called CIA torture flights to use its bases. Or that Britain's MI5 unlawfully shared with the CIA secret material to interrogate suspects and "facilitate interviews" including cases where the suspects were later proven to be innocent.

I could have written an article that stated that the Britain of family values is the only country in the EU that recruits child soldiers as young as 16 into its Army and ships them off battlegrounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, putting it in the same league as African dictatorships and Burma.

I could have written an article that states that Britain either recently did or has yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings, the United Nations Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict or the UN's International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families .

I could have highlighted the fact that liberal Britain is responsible for the physical and racial abuse of hundreds of failed asylum-seekers at the hands of private security guards during their forced removal from the country .

I could have written about the countless cases of slave-like working conditions of immigrant labours such as the 23 Chinese workers who lost their lives in 2004 as they harvested cockles in the dangerous rising tides in Morecambe Bay.

I could have written about how mortality rates from liver diseases due to alcohol abuse have declined in Europe in recent decades but in Britain the rate trebled in the same period reflecting deep societal failures.

I could have written about how in "Big Brother" Britain maltreatment of minors is so serious that one in 10, or an estimated one million children a year, suffer physical, sexual, emotional abuse or neglect.

Or that according to Oxfam 13.2 million people in the UK live in poverty a staggering 20 per cent of the population in the sixth richest nation in the world.

I could have written all that, but out of respect for Britain, I decided not to. Because when you stitch together a collection of unconnected facts taken out of context, you end up with a distorted and inaccurate picture: something that Britain's Dubai-bashers would do well to learn.

The writer is a journalist based in Dubai"
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 17:36
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I found it here http://sultansq.*************/2009/04/if-you-think-dubai-is-bad-just-look-at.html Hmm, wonder why ************* gets censored on PPRuNe?
Guess your lucky it didn't turn out to be a quote from Saddam Hussain

Great piece, esp about the Chinese. I wonder if ignorance is contagious. Written by a journalist that uses the holocaust rather often to make everything look non-trivial.

Now all the worries about DXB have been addressed, we can all at last peacefully sleep again...

Last edited by LLuke; 16th Apr 2009 at 18:30. Reason: Removed erroneous remark...
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 18:44
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"The writer is a journalist based in Dubai"

I am sure he blends in pretty well:

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Old 16th Apr 2009, 19:28
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just my 2 pennies.

before anything: i reject every unhuman behaviour, every offense on existing rights, laws. but if i' not aware of my rights and charges, it's not the system's fault, but it's mine!
also exploiting human ignorance: shameful! hopefully, reports over these issues will help!

as far as i remember, this canadian lady was the wife of a canadian man working for a "famous multinational company" in Dubai.
so, the lesser pay-off, the incorrect (if there were any) information about Dubai lifestyle, laws, etc. is the shame of the international company (not Dubai owned!).
pretty interesting, not?

not to mention if i, for example, go working in a different country, even within EU, i will do a small research about laws, possibilities of exercising my rights etc. (but if to a very different continent then it is obligatory.) i really feel pain for this lady, but it's tipical, taking loans over one's possibilities and knowledge... lot of same stories from US, family homes sold on auctions because of loans etc.

some mentioned the problems in EU, and the lack of prospective: yep, that's the problem with these comments here. okey, the article was for a certain use, there's really no problem.

but if we are saying "here is better" - then definitavely we're wrong. i won't repeat the mentioned issues as forced prostitute in EU (yes, passports taken, abused, locked in - not possible to go to police) etc. here isn't better, just different.

if you don't want to go to a country where islamic law and strange practices (strange only for us, westerners) exist, simply don't go!

but don't expect the same rights in every single country, the world is just too big to have the same things everywhere!

Olympiade, tourism in China, not to mention Chinese goods imported in western countries - what about human rights in this country?

someone mentioned Ryanair - nah, that's a human right's paradise, not? a beautiful, european social care home, not?

come on, guys, yes, it's very different in Dubai (UAE), but if someone plans a big move, it is crucial to get correct and relevant infos!

life is a playground, but often with dangerous toys! if you can use them, it's okey, but if not, don't shame the toys!
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 19:32
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A lot of moralising and hand wringing in this post.
Nearly every country you can think of has in its development phase used national or foreign labour living in poor conditions (ie camps,"labour lines" etc) on low pay. When foreigners have been attracted to it they have normally remitted back home as much of their earnings as they could, thereby improving the present and the future of those remaining there.
The whole thing has usually involoved a lot of pain, unfriendly discipline, long family separations but there has been ultimate benefit on both sides despite it being a hard and harsh deal.
It's a fact and you can't blame Dubai wanting to build a new future, even if many of the ultimate beneficiaries are foreigners in relatively well paid professional and support jobs. The whole place is a courageous venture and despite its detractors,- many of whom were flooding there for a new life only a year or so ago,-it ,like the rest of the world, will come out of recession and it will be more successful than many. At least it has put what there is of its oil money to good long term use in building the infrastructure of a modern state.Where has Britains' gone?
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 20:00
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Actually that's what makes this whole thread so pathetic: It is so easy to improve the living conditions, just check as a government that contracts are honoured, etc...

But no, lets simply deny everything and use some really funny counter accusations i.c.w. insane reasoning. Curious about the ones to come.

Are we sure we aren't locals pretending to be expats DXB has obviously good sides too, but that's not the subject here...
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 20:29
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Lluke, ahhhh Hoofddorp lovely place ,spend some time there in the past.
Holland, guess the most racist country in europe these days. What the fu*k happend there in the last couple of years.

Don,t they have an openly racist political party in parlement. A piece in the FT stated, that if they would have elections now in dutchland, this party would have enough seats in parlement to run the country. Quite scary for you I would imagine.

Friend of mine ( moroccan) born and raised in Holland,got married in Morocco with a girl from there. Now can get his wife into the country because she is from (and lives) morocco. Human rights my ass

Not to mention the way the dutchies handle the moroccans in Holland these days. According to my friend, the dutchies are completely obsessed with the islamic issues. Anyway you stated they are all happy campers, so I guess we have to take your word for that.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe its time to see things a little bit in perspective, and take a look into your backyard first.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 20:50
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Did your airco break down
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 21:20
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...friends in Dubai, Bahrain, Doha...

...some like it there, some not...
...some went there because there was no other option to keep on flying and feeding/supporting a family...
...some went there for bigger equipment, long range experience...
...some went there for "quicker" time to command...

...IF facing unemployment here in "good old Europe", I would most likely move there as well in order to keep on flying...IF a job offer is on the table...

...however IF potentially being offered the same lifestyle, buying power, equipment and/or career, MOST of my friends would return to their country/region of origin outside of the middle east...
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