Gulf Air Developments
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But that my friends is GF. Incompetence taken to a level never previously dreamed of.
1) Another case of aircraft manufacturer promising a certain performance and range, then discovering that in reality and under Bahrain conditions, it can't work out. Same as the A340s when they first came to GF.
2) The aircraft manufacturer using unrealistic assumptions for calculating the performance that does not tally with the international standards just to make the plane look good.
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A nostalgic look at aviation history
Posted on » Friday, April 02, 2010
Reading your article about Michael Stokes and Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air brings back many memories.
As one who first arrived in Bahrain in 1949 by flying boat, (a three-day story in itself), I have seen many changes in aviation in Bahrain.
I was living with my parents in Awali in 1950 when Gulf Aviation was first started and remember it well.
Aviation through the 1950s was a very chequered era, with many highs and lows.
In 1951, I flew to Dhahran by Aramco Aviation, the airline of the Saudi oil company.
This was in a Douglas DC3 Dakota of troop carrying style, that is, with seats backing on to the sides of the aircraft and freight strapped down the middle.
No problem going, but a week later on the return journey (being the only passenger) the captain and co-pilot told me before we set out that they would be putting shutters up round the cockpit windows to practise blind landings!
We landed a few minutes later at, what was then RAF Muharraq, on first the port wheel, then the starboard before settling down and coming to a stop.
On leaving the aircraft, I asked the two man crew why the shutters? They told me that it was in case they had to land in a sandstorm and could not see the runway and that the control tower could talk them down.
I asked them that if they could not see the runway, how could the control tower possibly see them and talk them down?
The captain looked at the co-pilot and said "Holy S++t, we never thought of that!"
The 1950s saw many changes with the main carrier from the UK being BOAC changing to land-based Argonauts with the same wheel configuration as the Dakota to the Boeing Constellation which had tricycle undercarriage, and then the Comet 1. The latter had a rather sad history to Bahrain, and although I was lucky enough to fly in it several times, it was marked with disasters off the coast of Italy with the loss of many lives.
Since the turn of the century, I have been lucky to have returned to Bahrain on a few occasions, including taking my wife, daughter and son-in-law out to see where I spent many happy years, and to enjoy Bahrain, the F1 Grand Prix and the friendliness of the people.
I hope that before too long I will again be flying to Bahrain.
Bill Wren
Posted on » Friday, April 02, 2010
Reading your article about Michael Stokes and Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air brings back many memories.
As one who first arrived in Bahrain in 1949 by flying boat, (a three-day story in itself), I have seen many changes in aviation in Bahrain.
I was living with my parents in Awali in 1950 when Gulf Aviation was first started and remember it well.
Aviation through the 1950s was a very chequered era, with many highs and lows.
In 1951, I flew to Dhahran by Aramco Aviation, the airline of the Saudi oil company.
This was in a Douglas DC3 Dakota of troop carrying style, that is, with seats backing on to the sides of the aircraft and freight strapped down the middle.
No problem going, but a week later on the return journey (being the only passenger) the captain and co-pilot told me before we set out that they would be putting shutters up round the cockpit windows to practise blind landings!
We landed a few minutes later at, what was then RAF Muharraq, on first the port wheel, then the starboard before settling down and coming to a stop.
On leaving the aircraft, I asked the two man crew why the shutters? They told me that it was in case they had to land in a sandstorm and could not see the runway and that the control tower could talk them down.
I asked them that if they could not see the runway, how could the control tower possibly see them and talk them down?
The captain looked at the co-pilot and said "Holy S++t, we never thought of that!"
The 1950s saw many changes with the main carrier from the UK being BOAC changing to land-based Argonauts with the same wheel configuration as the Dakota to the Boeing Constellation which had tricycle undercarriage, and then the Comet 1. The latter had a rather sad history to Bahrain, and although I was lucky enough to fly in it several times, it was marked with disasters off the coast of Italy with the loss of many lives.
Since the turn of the century, I have been lucky to have returned to Bahrain on a few occasions, including taking my wife, daughter and son-in-law out to see where I spent many happy years, and to enjoy Bahrain, the F1 Grand Prix and the friendliness of the people.
I hope that before too long I will again be flying to Bahrain.
Bill Wren
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Boiler, I don't know anything about GF, but if buying an aircraft, its extremely stupid to expect the manufacturer to define the conditions under which the performance is based, its the buyers responsibility to ensure that the aircraft is suitable for their route structure and environment.
Mutt
Mutt
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You are correct Mutt, therefore the CEO, should not take all the heat (monkey see, monkey do) It worked with RJ. He thought it’ll works with GF. Too.
It is the full responsibility of the Flt. ops. To consider all the facts and come up with recommendations.
who are those Gents. COO & DFO.
The payload drops 50% when the temperature exceeds 38C.
TO. limitation I.S.A +35 Of course we are talking ISA. But a forgotten performance penalty goes as follow
Density altitude
Effect of humidity (moisture) on density
It is assumed that the air was perfectly dry. In reality, it is never completely dry. The small amount of water vapor suspended in the atmosphere may be almost negligible under certain conditions, but in other conditions humidity may become an important factor in the performance of an airplane. Water vapor is lighter than air; consequently, moist air is lighter than dry air. Therefore, as the water content of the air increases, the air becomes less dense, increasing density altitude and decreasing performance.
http://www.free-online-private-pilot-ground-school.com/aircraft_performance.html
Regarding financial mischief of the company resources and mishandling of the day to day operation.
Flt.Ops.Managers are assigned positions with no managerial merits or skills.
The Embraer Project.
1-Nepotism, A 64 yeas retired Captain was selected for Embraer fleet.
2-A pilot with notice of resignation was sent to the course, he will leave the company before getting line checked
3-Pilots returned from the course ready for line training are on forced leave, not enough training pilots available, so The flybe guys can make the big buck, and the commissions could be made.
4-The two aircrafts fly max. two sector daily each. And retires over night.
5-The brand new AC. Had been grounded at least six times in a period of one month since their arrival.
It is the full responsibility of the Flt. ops. To consider all the facts and come up with recommendations.
who are those Gents. COO & DFO.
The payload drops 50% when the temperature exceeds 38C.
TO. limitation I.S.A +35 Of course we are talking ISA. But a forgotten performance penalty goes as follow
Density altitude
Effect of humidity (moisture) on density
It is assumed that the air was perfectly dry. In reality, it is never completely dry. The small amount of water vapor suspended in the atmosphere may be almost negligible under certain conditions, but in other conditions humidity may become an important factor in the performance of an airplane. Water vapor is lighter than air; consequently, moist air is lighter than dry air. Therefore, as the water content of the air increases, the air becomes less dense, increasing density altitude and decreasing performance.
http://www.free-online-private-pilot-ground-school.com/aircraft_performance.html
Regarding financial mischief of the company resources and mishandling of the day to day operation.
Flt.Ops.Managers are assigned positions with no managerial merits or skills.
The Embraer Project.
1-Nepotism, A 64 yeas retired Captain was selected for Embraer fleet.
2-A pilot with notice of resignation was sent to the course, he will leave the company before getting line checked
3-Pilots returned from the course ready for line training are on forced leave, not enough training pilots available, so The flybe guys can make the big buck, and the commissions could be made.
4-The two aircrafts fly max. two sector daily each. And retires over night.
5-The brand new AC. Had been grounded at least six times in a period of one month since their arrival.
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MIS-Information2000,
Where do you get your BS from?
1-the 64yr old capt did not get selected to the EMB, he elected to go. Guess he figured he'd like to work till 65--since not many DEC positions available out there for a 64yr old capt.
2--WTF? Do you even know when this guy resigned? Not before the course, but when he was almost done. AND, since there is a 3month notice period he chose to finish the course and line train. Successfully i might add--unlike others who choose to jump ship or short notice quit.
3--Forced Leave?? Hahaha. When is the next EMB course? Sign me up!
4--2 sectors max a day per a/c? Tomorrow, MA does 6 sectors and MB does 4 sectors. You need math lessons.
5--Don't really know about that. Maybe its true, BUT, you have any info on how many times the new 320's have been grounded? Would be interesting to know---pick 2 of the new ones. let me know.
The Density Altitude explanations--- not a bad copy and paste from a website.
You should teach Ground School to Private Pilots.
Atebis
Where do you get your BS from?
1-the 64yr old capt did not get selected to the EMB, he elected to go. Guess he figured he'd like to work till 65--since not many DEC positions available out there for a 64yr old capt.
2--WTF? Do you even know when this guy resigned? Not before the course, but when he was almost done. AND, since there is a 3month notice period he chose to finish the course and line train. Successfully i might add--unlike others who choose to jump ship or short notice quit.
3--Forced Leave?? Hahaha. When is the next EMB course? Sign me up!
4--2 sectors max a day per a/c? Tomorrow, MA does 6 sectors and MB does 4 sectors. You need math lessons.
5--Don't really know about that. Maybe its true, BUT, you have any info on how many times the new 320's have been grounded? Would be interesting to know---pick 2 of the new ones. let me know.
The Density Altitude explanations--- not a bad copy and paste from a website.
You should teach Ground School to Private Pilots.
Atebis
Last edited by Atebis; 2nd Apr 2010 at 19:46.
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mutt,
from reading your posts i gather your an SA guy and you fly these jungle jets too, and since its a level B in your company the pay for its pilots is less than C and D, correct me if I'm wrong.
is it true that SA is getting rid of them after flying them for some time now?
if so, can u plz fill us in on the cons and prons of it within your operation?
my humble opinion: that its a nice A/C but not for GFA's kind of pax and operation.
Flight ops in GF simply introduced it in a very bad way, and way too fast to the operation, and that caused a great disruption to the pilots the ground crew and many others.
it looks like a one man show right now, where the CEO decides and ops managers just action. its sad to see these guys just working without thinking. at the end of the day its there airline and they should look after it, expat CEO's come and go and all they ever think about is delivering numbers with no consideration to the people who worked and will still work hard for the company if only things where done in a proper manner and not hearting them as individuals.
from reading your posts i gather your an SA guy and you fly these jungle jets too, and since its a level B in your company the pay for its pilots is less than C and D, correct me if I'm wrong.
is it true that SA is getting rid of them after flying them for some time now?
if so, can u plz fill us in on the cons and prons of it within your operation?
my humble opinion: that its a nice A/C but not for GFA's kind of pax and operation.
Flight ops in GF simply introduced it in a very bad way, and way too fast to the operation, and that caused a great disruption to the pilots the ground crew and many others.
it looks like a one man show right now, where the CEO decides and ops managers just action. its sad to see these guys just working without thinking. at the end of the day its there airline and they should look after it, expat CEO's come and go and all they ever think about is delivering numbers with no consideration to the people who worked and will still work hard for the company if only things where done in a proper manner and not hearting them as individuals.
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We have a major threat now on our BAH KUL flights from May 5th as MAS is launching 2 weekly KUL DXB DMM flights with an A 332 with 5th freedom rights avbl on the DXB DMM DXB sector as well.
Link:
Business : Malaysia Airlines plans to start services to Dammam
Link:
Business : Malaysia Airlines plans to start services to Dammam
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Hunter, I don't fly the jungle jet....
In SA, there are 5 aircraft categories based on aircraft weight, with 3 pay scales, the E170 is CAT-B, same as the MD90 or Gulfstream. For obvious reasons crews flying these aircraft are paid less than a crew flying a B744 or B777. If a CAT-D crew member is requested to fly the CAT-B aircraft due to operational requirements, he will remain on his CAT-D salary, but will be removed from the fleet as soon as possible.
The aircraft is a commercial success, it did have entry into service problems (i.e maximum operating temperature), but these were solved. It isn't scheduled to be removed from service due to the fact that it actually makes money. You should be aware that there are a large number of Public Service Obligation routes in SA with light traffic loads, the E170 is ideal for these.
Cons, it does have problems on routes from hot/high/mountainous airports or operating into airports without fuel, but we knew this before we purchased them and these limitations were not sufficient to increase the aircraft size to an Airbus. (Note the subsequent Airbus purchase was to fulfill a different mission profile.)
Pros, the low ACN allows us to operate to taxiways
Why do you say it isn't suitable for GF kind of pax and operation ?
Mutt
In SA, there are 5 aircraft categories based on aircraft weight, with 3 pay scales, the E170 is CAT-B, same as the MD90 or Gulfstream. For obvious reasons crews flying these aircraft are paid less than a crew flying a B744 or B777. If a CAT-D crew member is requested to fly the CAT-B aircraft due to operational requirements, he will remain on his CAT-D salary, but will be removed from the fleet as soon as possible.
The aircraft is a commercial success, it did have entry into service problems (i.e maximum operating temperature), but these were solved. It isn't scheduled to be removed from service due to the fact that it actually makes money. You should be aware that there are a large number of Public Service Obligation routes in SA with light traffic loads, the E170 is ideal for these.
Cons, it does have problems on routes from hot/high/mountainous airports or operating into airports without fuel, but we knew this before we purchased them and these limitations were not sufficient to increase the aircraft size to an Airbus. (Note the subsequent Airbus purchase was to fulfill a different mission profile.)
Pros, the low ACN allows us to operate to taxiways
Why do you say it isn't suitable for GF kind of pax and operation ?
Mutt
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mutt, 
i didn't mean you fly the e-jet, SA in general, any way thanks a lot for the insight of your ops with this jet.
GF pax have been used to carrying a lot of baggage and we offer 40kgs for economy class now as an incentive to fly with us.
the main problem is most of them are labor who get 1 ticket every 2 years working contract, so they carry a lot with them when they travel, its the volume of their baggage that is a problem not the weight now.
safe flying for all
i didn't mean you fly the e-jet, SA in general, any way thanks a lot for the insight of your ops with this jet.
GF pax have been used to carrying a lot of baggage and we offer 40kgs for economy class now as an incentive to fly with us.
the main problem is most of them are labor who get 1 ticket every 2 years working contract, so they carry a lot with them when they travel, its the volume of their baggage that is a problem not the weight now.
safe flying for all
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When are we all just going to accept the obvious? there is absolutely no Operations managment going on at all. As someone once said "this is not a democaracy!" obviously our ops managment have decided to lie down and take it so we might as well bend over or get out of the way!
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Gentlemen, its easy, operate the aircraft on the routes for which it is suited... put the Airbus on the others... unless of course you have totally evolved into a labor class airliner whereas you should have purchased a C130!
Mutt
Mutt
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looks like gulf air is giving full throttle on advertisement. like they are in the GCC/middle east business information site.
check it out
Trade Arabia - Middle East & GCC business information | Trade News Portal
check it out
Trade Arabia - Middle East & GCC business information | Trade News Portal
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I heard that the training department was "reorganized". Apparently Chris was given a new position - one that paid much less than before. I don't know where he is going.