Qatar Airways losing instructors
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Qatar Airways losing instructors
Is there any one who cares about the future of QA?
Never mind the incompetent crew helpdesk, or the bad rostering, lately we are taking a serious turn in the flight ops, especially the training department.
Forcing A330 instructors to fly the 320 after denying them to fly the 777, while denying the 320 instructors their right of moving to other types!!!
It sounds like simply: "annoying everyone policy".
Surprise: your instructors of both types are having interviews in Ehihad during September and October.
I am writing this out of care to this company that I served for many years, it hurts to see the new ops management demoralizing their personnel like that.
I paid my time on the 320 and will never fly it again, force me if you can.
The problem will never be solved like that for the 320 trainers, simply because the 330 TREs will become 320 SFEs also, meaning: the 320 TRE will automatically do the LI job since on one else will fly the line training flights, and the 330 fleet has no shortage of the Line instructors, it is simple mathematics and pilots see it.
I know that many 320 trainers will resign the training soon, just to go to either another type or another airline.
Ops management: try to keep them, before it is too late, unless you want them out so other TREs/TRIs may join QA as direct entry instructors!
I have a question: why did you deny the 330 trainers to go to the 777 and now you want them to co-operate by demoting them without any financial compensation?
I am shopping around and it seems that Korean is a good option with a commuting contract.
Never mind the incompetent crew helpdesk, or the bad rostering, lately we are taking a serious turn in the flight ops, especially the training department.
Forcing A330 instructors to fly the 320 after denying them to fly the 777, while denying the 320 instructors their right of moving to other types!!!
It sounds like simply: "annoying everyone policy".
Surprise: your instructors of both types are having interviews in Ehihad during September and October.
I am writing this out of care to this company that I served for many years, it hurts to see the new ops management demoralizing their personnel like that.
I paid my time on the 320 and will never fly it again, force me if you can.
The problem will never be solved like that for the 320 trainers, simply because the 330 TREs will become 320 SFEs also, meaning: the 320 TRE will automatically do the LI job since on one else will fly the line training flights, and the 330 fleet has no shortage of the Line instructors, it is simple mathematics and pilots see it.
I know that many 320 trainers will resign the training soon, just to go to either another type or another airline.
Ops management: try to keep them, before it is too late, unless you want them out so other TREs/TRIs may join QA as direct entry instructors!
I have a question: why did you deny the 330 trainers to go to the 777 and now you want them to co-operate by demoting them without any financial compensation?
I am shopping around and it seems that Korean is a good option with a commuting contract.
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point of view
This comment below is from Max, I hope you don't mind moving it here from the other thread Max.
They won't be reading PPRUNE my friend as they are far too busy doing their A330 CCQ courses. If not busy with that then they are occupied trying forcing A330 trainers to the A320!
The new British flight ops management (both former experienced 320 drivers) would have been more useful getting A320 training endorsements on their licences and helping out in the training department rather than doing A330 CCQ.
Guess everyone needs to leave this place with something to show for their time here.
Whats next? Direct entry trainers from the UK to Qatar?
Max
The new British flight ops management (both former experienced 320 drivers) would have been more useful getting A320 training endorsements on their licences and helping out in the training department rather than doing A330 CCQ.
Guess everyone needs to leave this place with something to show for their time here.
Whats next? Direct entry trainers from the UK to Qatar?
Max
Last edited by A320 Man; 21st Sep 2008 at 04:00. Reason: adding the quote background
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Post from a friend
This post is froma friend who did not want his handle revieled:
The only reason to become instructor for QR is to increase the salary,because the job sucks,flying only turn around flights .And not long time ago giving basic instructions in a A330 for a S/O with only 200 hs TT.(not S/O's fault.It's the Company lack of vision)
That's why the majority of the guys left after paying debts and the ones who continue stays only because they are building houses elsewhere and need money to pay the loans,and the majority of them piss the brain of the trainees with a lot of BS.
We normally see in line FO's with only 2 months in the Comany wishing to go,because the training captains during the sim and the line destroying any desire from them to have a life and stay in the sandpit.
Money is not enought to keep these people among us.
And What about the experienced FO's .Here they call them Senior with 3 stripes after flying for 3 yrs and them fail a lot of them during Captain training.And we know that most of them fly better and safe than a lot of DEC's among us.
That's Good for some far east low cost companies that are currently getting a lot of our good experienced FO's to fill their Captain ranks.
I feel really bad about this because those people spent 4-5 yrs in the sandpit for nothing,or some new guys came here with a very good background from places as far as Latin and Central America countries and USA as well and could be here for a long time to help the company grow,but they left with anger.Maybe is the QR Karma.
QR could be good,i mean a very good company to work for. But ......
I am leaving as well.I can't cope with the lack of motivation and lack of happiness even among the flight deck crew.Even if they pay me 10 times is not enough.I am losing my faith and i became a racist,because of some Ind...(nationalities)!
The only reason to become instructor for QR is to increase the salary,because the job sucks,flying only turn around flights .And not long time ago giving basic instructions in a A330 for a S/O with only 200 hs TT.(not S/O's fault.It's the Company lack of vision)
That's why the majority of the guys left after paying debts and the ones who continue stays only because they are building houses elsewhere and need money to pay the loans,and the majority of them piss the brain of the trainees with a lot of BS.
We normally see in line FO's with only 2 months in the Comany wishing to go,because the training captains during the sim and the line destroying any desire from them to have a life and stay in the sandpit.
Money is not enought to keep these people among us.
And What about the experienced FO's .Here they call them Senior with 3 stripes after flying for 3 yrs and them fail a lot of them during Captain training.And we know that most of them fly better and safe than a lot of DEC's among us.
That's Good for some far east low cost companies that are currently getting a lot of our good experienced FO's to fill their Captain ranks.
I feel really bad about this because those people spent 4-5 yrs in the sandpit for nothing,or some new guys came here with a very good background from places as far as Latin and Central America countries and USA as well and could be here for a long time to help the company grow,but they left with anger.Maybe is the QR Karma.
QR could be good,i mean a very good company to work for. But ......
I am leaving as well.I can't cope with the lack of motivation and lack of happiness even among the flight deck crew.Even if they pay me 10 times is not enough.I am losing my faith and i became a racist,because of some Ind...(nationalities)!
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Sad but oh so true!
Makes you wonder why managers in flight ops have such a huge lack of people knowledge. Its like management puts them there on purpose just to demoralise every single crew that enters the technical building...
Makes you wonder why managers in flight ops have such a huge lack of people knowledge. Its like management puts them there on purpose just to demoralise every single crew that enters the technical building...
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They don't know
I don't think that you know that their decisions are demoralising their staff, I guess they just don't realise the long term effect!
Some one have to show them the large numbers of captains f/o's and trainers leaving the airline, this is an expensive process (against the saving of the MFF concept).
Unless like Max said:" the plan is to piss off the instructors, so the friends from home can join QR as direct entry instructors" well....maybe that is why they said: we don't care about the seniority any more...any fleet transfer is going to be by selection and merit?
Some one have to show them the large numbers of captains f/o's and trainers leaving the airline, this is an expensive process (against the saving of the MFF concept).
Unless like Max said:" the plan is to piss off the instructors, so the friends from home can join QR as direct entry instructors" well....maybe that is why they said: we don't care about the seniority any more...any fleet transfer is going to be by selection and merit?
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Suggestion
I have a suggestion that will make every one happy, productive and loyal.
330 instructors to be transferred to the 777,
320 instructors to the 340,
new instructors appointed on the 320.
The fact that 777 planes are arriving in high flow staring next June will help this plan.
It will set the example for both new joiners and the junior capts/trainers with this positive message.
330 instructors to be transferred to the 777,
320 instructors to the 340,
new instructors appointed on the 320.
The fact that 777 planes are arriving in high flow staring next June will help this plan.
It will set the example for both new joiners and the junior capts/trainers with this positive message.
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Mr Ho, what is your problem?
If you have a useful input go ahead, if you are not interested why bother with reading or even replying???
Thank you for your support for your fellow pilots anyway!
If you have a useful input go ahead, if you are not interested why bother with reading or even replying???
Thank you for your support for your fellow pilots anyway!
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to Mr. HO
Mr. Ho, What kind of crazy comment was that?? Can't you read? The 320 man was quoting from others as well.
Very useful information from 320 man, I personally appreciate it.
No one shares info in QA, we should be thankful for shedding the light on such important matter, at least for the pilots who would be trainers in the near future.
Mr. Ho, you could act like a mature man and send a private message or like 320 man said: why bother? Just leave the thread!!
Or maybe you are one of the management? And you don't like your true colors revealed here??
Thanks a lot A320 man, keep us informed and I personally took a decision to resign training if I was forced to go back to the 320 fleet.
Very useful information from 320 man, I personally appreciate it.
No one shares info in QA, we should be thankful for shedding the light on such important matter, at least for the pilots who would be trainers in the near future.
Mr. Ho, you could act like a mature man and send a private message or like 320 man said: why bother? Just leave the thread!!
Or maybe you are one of the management? And you don't like your true colors revealed here??
Thanks a lot A320 man, keep us informed and I personally took a decision to resign training if I was forced to go back to the 320 fleet.
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So who is behind the so called "pissing off" plot?
The Latin Americans?
The Algerians?
The Indians?
The Arab League in general?
In all honesty, I think that theory is a bit far fetched. There simply are too many nationalities in this airline and the times where one big maffia group was ruling certain parts in flight ops are long gone...It only still exists in the rostering department..
What is absolutely true I think is that this new policy for trainers has pissed of ALL parties involved and was not a particular bright move! It might seem to be a perfect solution to your problems as a manager flying a desk in an office, but in real life it is a disaster!
Besides that, it shows a particular lack of knowledge of company and region's culture! Transferring on a larger airplane in most cases is still seen as a promotion! So forcing an A330 TRE to be SFE on the A320 would be seen as a demotion!
This airline seriously needs to start thinking in parts of career planning and long term solutions.
A pilot, if ambitious enough, should be allowed to plan out his whole career, with clear stepstones.
A320 made a good start point allready. Everybody should put in his/her duties on the A320 first. Its damn hard work, long days, lots of duty for half of the flying time. After a certain time there you could be allowed to go and sit in the lazy seat of a widebody plane!
This should be certainly the case for people wanting to go in training!
The way it is arranged now is totally erratic! Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!
The new policy tackles this a little bit by demanding 1000hrs PIC on the airplane before becoming LTC, but there is always that little note which allows the company anything in case needed.
DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!
The only solution would be to have all instructors channel through one or two base fleets and have them work their way up in the company! Only this guarantees the honoring of seniority.
As long as seniority is being violated on a daily bases in this company, they wont create the much needed loyalty to build a solid instructor core for the future.
A plan like this might cause some additional problems at the kick off point, but on the long term it will be smooth running and self- feeding system!
Am I asking too much once more?
The Latin Americans?
The Algerians?
The Indians?
The Arab League in general?
In all honesty, I think that theory is a bit far fetched. There simply are too many nationalities in this airline and the times where one big maffia group was ruling certain parts in flight ops are long gone...It only still exists in the rostering department..
What is absolutely true I think is that this new policy for trainers has pissed of ALL parties involved and was not a particular bright move! It might seem to be a perfect solution to your problems as a manager flying a desk in an office, but in real life it is a disaster!
Besides that, it shows a particular lack of knowledge of company and region's culture! Transferring on a larger airplane in most cases is still seen as a promotion! So forcing an A330 TRE to be SFE on the A320 would be seen as a demotion!
This airline seriously needs to start thinking in parts of career planning and long term solutions.
A pilot, if ambitious enough, should be allowed to plan out his whole career, with clear stepstones.
A320 made a good start point allready. Everybody should put in his/her duties on the A320 first. Its damn hard work, long days, lots of duty for half of the flying time. After a certain time there you could be allowed to go and sit in the lazy seat of a widebody plane!
This should be certainly the case for people wanting to go in training!
The way it is arranged now is totally erratic! Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!
The new policy tackles this a little bit by demanding 1000hrs PIC on the airplane before becoming LTC, but there is always that little note which allows the company anything in case needed.
DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!
The only solution would be to have all instructors channel through one or two base fleets and have them work their way up in the company! Only this guarantees the honoring of seniority.
As long as seniority is being violated on a daily bases in this company, they wont create the much needed loyalty to build a solid instructor core for the future.
A plan like this might cause some additional problems at the kick off point, but on the long term it will be smooth running and self- feeding system!
Am I asking too much once more?
Last edited by Qatari515; 18th Sep 2008 at 15:05.
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Hello A320Man and A330Man. All we need is A340Man and the entire QR Airbus fleet is here on this thread!!
Sorry to hear that morale is still so low at Qatar. Good post - as usual - Qatari 515.
Sorry to hear that morale is still so low at Qatar. Good post - as usual - Qatari 515.
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Thanks for great info. A320MAN and Qatari515 
Totally agreed with both of you. Management are mostlikely not to response until they actually see some aircraft parking due to lack of pilots.
Just hope that someday my hard work here will pay off, or I will have to consider resigning just like everyone else.
Totally agreed with both of you. Management are mostlikely not to response until they actually see some aircraft parking due to lack of pilots. Just hope that someday my hard work here will pay off, or I will have to consider resigning just like everyone else.
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To QR515
QR 515, you are absolutely correct when you said:
Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!
DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!
It is actually happening for my friends who were "loyal enough" and accepted to stay on the 320 doing the hard work for 3 years to go later on the 330 or even to the 340 TREs like M.H, who worked hard on the 320 earlier, so it was a positive message that all is gonna be OK in the bright horizon, suddenly all is cancelled, no fleet transfer for them and we(330 TREs) have to go to the 320!!
I wonder why the 320 captains on the management seats did not come as DEC on the 320 to give a helping hand?? They chose instead to fly the 330 and on their way to get the 777 rating!!!
I understand that some managers don't practice what they preach, but I don't understand why deny others the same privilege especially after their hard work for the airline!!
I did my time on the 320, it is a very hard work and not rewarding, unpaid long ground time, too many daily sectors and not many good night stops.
Why should I do it again when I have so many chances to fly 330 in many countries (including commuting contract option)?
This new policy is a wrong message for all the 320 captains, no one will accept the training offer anymore.
Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!
DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!
It is actually happening for my friends who were "loyal enough" and accepted to stay on the 320 doing the hard work for 3 years to go later on the 330 or even to the 340 TREs like M.H, who worked hard on the 320 earlier, so it was a positive message that all is gonna be OK in the bright horizon, suddenly all is cancelled, no fleet transfer for them and we(330 TREs) have to go to the 320!!
I wonder why the 320 captains on the management seats did not come as DEC on the 320 to give a helping hand?? They chose instead to fly the 330 and on their way to get the 777 rating!!!
I understand that some managers don't practice what they preach, but I don't understand why deny others the same privilege especially after their hard work for the airline!!
I did my time on the 320, it is a very hard work and not rewarding, unpaid long ground time, too many daily sectors and not many good night stops.
Why should I do it again when I have so many chances to fly 330 in many countries (including commuting contract option)?
This new policy is a wrong message for all the 320 captains, no one will accept the training offer anymore.
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Qatari515, let me correct you on one thing:the 320 is not considered a demotion because it is a smaller type, simply because it is harder work, for less money.
Otherwise, the new comers in the management team would fly it -since they were currnt 320 captains- when they joined the airline, but they also put their eyes on the "bigger" type form day one!
Otherwise, the new comers in the management team would fly it -since they were currnt 320 captains- when they joined the airline, but they also put their eyes on the "bigger" type form day one!
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set your plan
It is very normal that any new management trying to implement new policies serving their goals and ideas.
On the other hand we should always have alternative plans.
Short term plan: which some have mentioned resign the 320 training and fly as a "330 or 777 line captain" and forget the instructor position (it doesn't worth any way, especially on the 320).
The 330 instructors may apply for the 777 transfer.
Long term plane: shop around for another airline/country.
I think the 320 instructors should wait few weeks & see if this "promised" MFF (mixed fleet flying) is going to start at all or not? then you may decide.
If they start the 320 to 330 CCQ soon, it is better for the junior instructors, if not then you know you are stuck for long years on 320 doing the hard work (double rotation...etc) while the 330 SFEs are using your sim slots, in other words you will be line instructors with TRE salary!
On the other hand we should always have alternative plans.
Short term plan: which some have mentioned resign the 320 training and fly as a "330 or 777 line captain" and forget the instructor position (it doesn't worth any way, especially on the 320).
The 330 instructors may apply for the 777 transfer.
Long term plane: shop around for another airline/country.
I think the 320 instructors should wait few weeks & see if this "promised" MFF (mixed fleet flying) is going to start at all or not? then you may decide.
If they start the 320 to 330 CCQ soon, it is better for the junior instructors, if not then you know you are stuck for long years on 320 doing the hard work (double rotation...etc) while the 330 SFEs are using your sim slots, in other words you will be line instructors with TRE salary!
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to 330 man
As you mentioned, people started resigning from the 320 training, at least one I know, and the others are waiting for few weeks to see if the MFF to the 330 will ever happen or is it just another management promise.
I tell the 320 guys the MFF is not the answer for your career, you will stay on the 320 forever while you are just keeping the 330 current on your license by flying the minimum requried hours on type. That is not a real change in your life style.
I tell the 320 guys the MFF is not the answer for your career, you will stay on the 320 forever while you are just keeping the 330 current on your license by flying the minimum requried hours on type. That is not a real change in your life style.
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A320 girl and A330 girl you are still just talking talking talking. I meet big chief katamite and he no like you, he know who you are and watch you every thing. He know you to 515 and say you talk to much but he like you. If instructor dont like goat then go away. Many wait be instructor as I do 
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to ho
I warned you befor mr Ho, if you are not a polite guy and you want to be like that in public....enjoy my public reply:
aha... so you are not only impolite, inconsiderate kid, you are also a snitcher.
Good for you baby... go and tell maybe you will be a captain then an instructor too one day.
Your quality shows..... enjoy it, and I don't care who knows me, I can tell you who am I, but you have to earn it.... go to my Chief pilot...check the resignation letter on his desk, read my name clearly, unfortunately you have to wait 3 months before I go, so your boss may give you my post.
P.S. you will not get it because he doesn't respect people like you.
I feel sorry that a kid like you is one of us, ......but not for long.
Ho, go and read the other forums too so you have information to relay to your boss.
P.S. stop licking someone's a** and wipe this brown peace of sh** off your nose
aha... so you are not only impolite, inconsiderate kid, you are also a snitcher.
Good for you baby... go and tell maybe you will be a captain then an instructor too one day.
Your quality shows..... enjoy it, and I don't care who knows me, I can tell you who am I, but you have to earn it.... go to my Chief pilot...check the resignation letter on his desk, read my name clearly, unfortunately you have to wait 3 months before I go, so your boss may give you my post.
P.S. you will not get it because he doesn't respect people like you.
I feel sorry that a kid like you is one of us, ......but not for long.
Ho, go and read the other forums too so you have information to relay to your boss.
P.S. stop licking someone's a** and wipe this brown peace of sh** off your nose
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A320 man, dont allow this imposter to get on your nerves man!
Honestly, thats all what he wants to do. In the beginning I found his fake chinese-english funny and entertaining, but by now he has degraded himself to the likes of CEO PITA (remember him?)
Look at him as the clown of this forum, the guy providing the funny note. But do not take him seriously please.
On one thing I dont agree 100% with you however. Maybe for you and me type of aircraft does not mean promotion or demotion, but I know the majority of the pilots here DO care about the size of their flying tube! A very unfortunate thing, almost childish one could argue, but its there. This is a largely underestimated fact by our leaders and is due to a lack of understanding of how things work overhere.
Add to that the differences in pay ( can be almost 3000USD/month for exactly the same job, just on a different plane) and you have a rather explosive mixture....
HO, does he know all 5 of us?
Honestly, thats all what he wants to do. In the beginning I found his fake chinese-english funny and entertaining, but by now he has degraded himself to the likes of CEO PITA (remember him?)
Look at him as the clown of this forum, the guy providing the funny note. But do not take him seriously please.
On one thing I dont agree 100% with you however. Maybe for you and me type of aircraft does not mean promotion or demotion, but I know the majority of the pilots here DO care about the size of their flying tube! A very unfortunate thing, almost childish one could argue, but its there. This is a largely underestimated fact by our leaders and is due to a lack of understanding of how things work overhere.
Add to that the differences in pay ( can be almost 3000USD/month for exactly the same job, just on a different plane) and you have a rather explosive mixture....
HO, does he know all 5 of us?
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About mr ho
A320 man, don't dignify such an axx lickxx like Mr. Ho with a reply, no respectable man would write this B.S
.
Do you know why he is not sending you private messages? Because he is a management boy.
He is longing to be an instructor but we all know that such a character will never be one.
He cannot even spell English, forget about teaching!!
I wonder why he is in this thread at all if he in not a trainer, oh I forget to tell his boss what's on and gain points!
Congratulations mr ho (management boy).
Obviously our talk touched a nerve, but anyone in his right state of mind would realize it is to open the eyes on the decision makers on the damage resulting of the new policy.
.
Do you know why he is not sending you private messages? Because he is a management boy.
He is longing to be an instructor but we all know that such a character will never be one.
He cannot even spell English, forget about teaching!!
I wonder why he is in this thread at all if he in not a trainer, oh I forget to tell his boss what's on and gain points!
Congratulations mr ho (management boy).
Obviously our talk touched a nerve, but anyone in his right state of mind would realize it is to open the eyes on the decision makers on the damage resulting of the new policy.