Qatar Airways losing instructors
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Really? Do you think so?
You are absolutely right. QR still sees its workforce (yes, pilots as well) as an army of personal slaves!
As long as they pay us we have to fullfill the task! The priciple of investing in the employees, regarding employees as a capital bases for the future etc etc is just an unknown fact in QR!
EK and EY in a lesser extend are investing in their employees as they realise that training costs money and they need a ROI!
QR trains you and if you resign after 6 months they are to pigheaded to do something about it!
MONEY ENOUGH I GUESS!
You are absolutely right. QR still sees its workforce (yes, pilots as well) as an army of personal slaves!
As long as they pay us we have to fullfill the task! The priciple of investing in the employees, regarding employees as a capital bases for the future etc etc is just an unknown fact in QR!
EK and EY in a lesser extend are investing in their employees as they realise that training costs money and they need a ROI!
QR trains you and if you resign after 6 months they are to pigheaded to do something about it!
MONEY ENOUGH I GUESS!
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I thought QA pilots had enough motivation by the latest Flt. Ops. Management decisions:
Examples:
Block the pilots on current types (especially the 320 captains), reduce the Hotel Acc. standard to 3 stars, disregard the seniority list, Block the salary increment, hire their buddies as DEC on wide body equipments, max work with unpaid days off during your layovers.
What else the management can do for you pilots???
You are indeed a bunch of ungrateful drivers!!!!!
Examples:
Block the pilots on current types (especially the 320 captains), reduce the Hotel Acc. standard to 3 stars, disregard the seniority list, Block the salary increment, hire their buddies as DEC on wide body equipments, max work with unpaid days off during your layovers.
What else the management can do for you pilots???
You are indeed a bunch of ungrateful drivers!!!!!
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TRUE
TRUE 100% i meet new British pilots jojning DEC on 777 and A330 guess what most of them NON RATED .
Cool A320 drivers get stuck on 320 while B.W and I.M friends are taking wide body and enjojing all benifits .
Its time for 320 guyz to pack and go to Korea ,Air Asia ,Etihad ,EK....
Cool A320 drivers get stuck on 320 while B.W and I.M friends are taking wide body and enjojing all benifits .
Its time for 320 guyz to pack and go to Korea ,Air Asia ,Etihad ,EK....
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Luluqatar
TRUE 100% i meet new British pilots jojning DEC on 777 and A330 guess what most of them NON RATED .
Cool A320 drivers get stuck on 320 while B.W and I.M friends are taking wide body and enjojing all benifits .
Its time for 320 guyz to pack and go to Korea ,Air Asia ,Etihad ,EK....
So what was written in the first page of this thread (back in September) was completely correct !!
IM and BW are holding the poor 320 captains while hiring their non-type rated friends on the 330 and 777!!! 
I guess by the time of their termination it will be too late for the 320 pilots, but guys don't worry the A350 will arrive in 2013, so wait a little longer, it is only 5 more years!! But who knows maybe BW and IM will still be here, so they will change Part A again to force some of their friends to the 350 while the 320 people of QA will be already flying wide body types in other airlines !!
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The unfairness reached a new level with IM, he is selecting UK guys over the heads of all the other instructors.
He selected JL on fast track instructor on 777 after being removed from training on the 330.
Also selecting another UK guy on the 320 to be a fast track TRI, while many LI's are ahead of him seniority wise on the 320 and in the airline, but hey…remember?…no seniority consideration anymore, only merit and caliber!!
IM and BW keep the destruction going.
He selected JL on fast track instructor on 777 after being removed from training on the 330.
Also selecting another UK guy on the 320 to be a fast track TRI, while many LI's are ahead of him seniority wise on the 320 and in the airline, but hey…remember?…no seniority consideration anymore, only merit and caliber!!
IM and BW keep the destruction going.
Last edited by EGGW; 6th Nov 2008 at 07:44. Reason: Outing
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let's not forget that,
in the mean time, management has succeed as well in turning the 320 fleet into a laboratory to test the pilot's resistance to fatigue(i thought Q.R's primary concern was the safety...
),while some other pilots on other fleet enjoy a really easy live in Q.R.!!
in the mean time, management has succeed as well in turning the 320 fleet into a laboratory to test the pilot's resistance to fatigue(i thought Q.R's primary concern was the safety...
),while some other pilots on other fleet enjoy a really easy live in Q.R.!!
Last edited by loc22550; 6th Nov 2008 at 13:33.
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ASR filed
I filed my first ASR few days ago when I was flying an intra gulf flight after a layover leg, I noticed that after more than 11 hrs of duty on the 320 (and 3 T/O's) your response is much slower and total awareness is degraded noticeably (for both pilots)
I can tell you when I was flying the 330 to KIX I did not feel that tired, maybe because it is less work load than 3 or 4 T/Os, approaches and Landings?
Or maybe because we had the time to use the legal nap time??
I don't know, but I think it is not safe to frequently operate the 320 this way.
Or maybe because we had the time to use the legal nap time??
I don't know, but I think it is not safe to frequently operate the 320 this way.
Last edited by AirbusMaster; 8th Nov 2008 at 09:09.
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Airbus Master, i experienced and i did the same thing as you did as well..
You are 100% correct.
What i did as well now, i asked the roster once simply to remove one of my flight because for me as a cpt this operation was totally unsafe!And if they didn't remove it , i would simply report unfit for this flight!They did it!
That's the way it is now, you have to fight for your own safety here..!
But the difference now is that they have been advised by a couple of ASR i think, so they can't deny the problem, and they better do something ASAP.
You are 100% correct.
What i did as well now, i asked the roster once simply to remove one of my flight because for me as a cpt this operation was totally unsafe!And if they didn't remove it , i would simply report unfit for this flight!They did it!
That's the way it is now, you have to fight for your own safety here..!
But the difference now is that they have been advised by a couple of ASR i think, so they can't deny the problem, and they better do something ASAP.
Last edited by loc22550; 8th Nov 2008 at 11:26.
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AirbusMaster, what exactly was it that made you think, "I must file an ASR"? What did you do (or forget to do) which made you relate it to being fatigued? Well done for submitting a form though, it's the right thing to do if you feel you should bring it to the attention of others.
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What happened were many small mistakes, many unanswered ATC calls… I was distracted while the speed passed the flap retraction with more than 15 knots, the PNF suddenly noticed and shouted: flaps… speed I realized we were about to reach the Flaps VFE speed, ordered the flaps up at the last moment !!!but the most serious one when the PF selected the G/A ALT earlier before G/S capture, till we actually were about 200ft below the platform altitude, only then I pushed v/s to level off. Lucky the ATC did not make a fuss about it (maybe went un-noticed).
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Just continue to file those ASRs guys! Eventually they will have to listen.
Many years ago we used to do TRV turnaround flights, with a departure at 2300 LT and back in OTBD around 1030LT. Back than the CAP 371 FT/DT was not there so we could do this, although it was barely legal!
We started filing ASRs untill management wrote an ASR whereby they said NO ASRs could be filed if they where fatigue related! Imagine THAT! So some pilots reported this to the QCAA.
You would not BELIEVE how fast they reversed both the ACN and how fast they found HOTAC in TRV!!!
I saw the roster of an A320 captain lately and its a disgrace. Sure, its all legal looking at the book but a couple of things where bluntly forgotten:
1) CAP 371 is designed for the European airspace. Very rarely a Medium haul crew will cross two timezones as there are no destinations that far so most of the time pilots ALWAYS stay acclimatised! This limits the number of possible consecutive nightduties to 2 or 3 and not 6 or 7 like the duties we see in QR!
2)CAP 371 was a recommendation made by the JAA authorities. In case an airline would fall outside the standard European airspace (Western europe) CAP 371 rules where supposed to be changed to cater for the special needs of these airlines. The redesigned rules would be made by a joint venture between the airline and the union to saveguard both parties'intrests. QR defenitely fall outside the geographical region the CAP371 rules where intended to be used in!!
Remember as well that OTBD actually should be in the OMDB timezone but is kept on JEDDAH time for religeous reasons!!!!This one hour makes all the difference! If you think about it and if we would be on OMDB time, sending a 320 crew on a layover to CMB or TRV would keep them acclimatised which would limit the number of consecutive nightduty being legal!Your body feeld it differently off course ( never wondered why 1730 in dubai feels more normal than 1730 in Doha where it is pitch black allready?)
3) CAP 371 never took into consideration Dead heading sectors and split duties whereby you stay 4 hours on the ground in the middle of the night, locked up in an aircraft, because doing so would simply cost too much money to any normal airline where you are getting paid for any duty performed, including DH!
4) CAP 371 talks about the saveguarding of the circadian rythm etc etc. This is the first thing QR forgets to do!
So we actually have a chapter 7 which is not adapted by QR and the QCAA to the type of flying we perform in this region! It is totally unsuitable for our operation but nobody gives a dime!
How many of us can honestly say that the situation, as described by Airbusmaster, never happend to them? How many of us actually came close to selecting the wrong flapsetting, mispressing the correct FCU PB, loosing spaciala awereness etc...just because they simply where fighting to keep their eyes open during descent and approach?
I bet you that, in case everybody would be honest, 80% or more would reckognise these points! And the 20% who would say they'd never seen these things happening probably just joined the airline and are still fresh!
Its a disgrace!
Many years ago we used to do TRV turnaround flights, with a departure at 2300 LT and back in OTBD around 1030LT. Back than the CAP 371 FT/DT was not there so we could do this, although it was barely legal!
We started filing ASRs untill management wrote an ASR whereby they said NO ASRs could be filed if they where fatigue related! Imagine THAT! So some pilots reported this to the QCAA.
You would not BELIEVE how fast they reversed both the ACN and how fast they found HOTAC in TRV!!!
I saw the roster of an A320 captain lately and its a disgrace. Sure, its all legal looking at the book but a couple of things where bluntly forgotten:
1) CAP 371 is designed for the European airspace. Very rarely a Medium haul crew will cross two timezones as there are no destinations that far so most of the time pilots ALWAYS stay acclimatised! This limits the number of possible consecutive nightduties to 2 or 3 and not 6 or 7 like the duties we see in QR!
2)CAP 371 was a recommendation made by the JAA authorities. In case an airline would fall outside the standard European airspace (Western europe) CAP 371 rules where supposed to be changed to cater for the special needs of these airlines. The redesigned rules would be made by a joint venture between the airline and the union to saveguard both parties'intrests. QR defenitely fall outside the geographical region the CAP371 rules where intended to be used in!!
Remember as well that OTBD actually should be in the OMDB timezone but is kept on JEDDAH time for religeous reasons!!!!This one hour makes all the difference! If you think about it and if we would be on OMDB time, sending a 320 crew on a layover to CMB or TRV would keep them acclimatised which would limit the number of consecutive nightduty being legal!Your body feeld it differently off course ( never wondered why 1730 in dubai feels more normal than 1730 in Doha where it is pitch black allready?)
3) CAP 371 never took into consideration Dead heading sectors and split duties whereby you stay 4 hours on the ground in the middle of the night, locked up in an aircraft, because doing so would simply cost too much money to any normal airline where you are getting paid for any duty performed, including DH!
4) CAP 371 talks about the saveguarding of the circadian rythm etc etc. This is the first thing QR forgets to do!
So we actually have a chapter 7 which is not adapted by QR and the QCAA to the type of flying we perform in this region! It is totally unsuitable for our operation but nobody gives a dime!
How many of us can honestly say that the situation, as described by Airbusmaster, never happend to them? How many of us actually came close to selecting the wrong flapsetting, mispressing the correct FCU PB, loosing spaciala awereness etc...just because they simply where fighting to keep their eyes open during descent and approach?
I bet you that, in case everybody would be honest, 80% or more would reckognise these points! And the 20% who would say they'd never seen these things happening probably just joined the airline and are still fresh!
Its a disgrace!
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The latest joke in the "new roster" system is to roster pilots DOH-DMM-
DOH-KTM!
DOH-KTM!
Yes, you are required to fly 2 sectors before you go to Kathmandu, performing a VOR approach when you are dead tired facing the high possibility of a missed approach, hoping not to get any failures with this level of fatigue.
P.Mc.N. don't you know if we lose a plane in such situation…you will lose
your job and might be prosecuted too?
your job and might be prosecuted too?
shneidertrophy, you are completely correct, we have to stop this dangerous roster planning, especially this misuse of the non-acclimatized rule, when they make you more tired to be legal !!
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There are some other Jokes on 320 A-330 man:
-After a couple of incident they decided to make CCJ layover(i heard it's a cat c airport now..not sure)BUT now you will have to operate another flight before (turnaround in the gulf area!)!!!
-Cochin flight was layover,now it became turnaround(night flight 4h to go,4h coming back), operated if possible after minimum rest,.. better for the performance...!!!
-KTM sometime now is turnaround.
What a JOKE!!!!
In qatar airways LEGALITY=SAFETY.
-After a couple of incident they decided to make CCJ layover(i heard it's a cat c airport now..not sure)BUT now you will have to operate another flight before (turnaround in the gulf area!)!!!
-Cochin flight was layover,now it became turnaround(night flight 4h to go,4h coming back), operated if possible after minimum rest,.. better for the performance...!!!
-KTM sometime now is turnaround.
What a JOKE!!!!
In qatar airways LEGALITY=SAFETY.
Last edited by loc22550; 10th Nov 2008 at 07:22.
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well i have completed the us navy seals version of hell week, part of the buds training, where sleep deprivation is the name of the game, so i guess rostering have been on that course as well, day night night night evening night oh and last but not least a night to finish on. makes u wish u where back on the good old 330 flying for 7-12 hrs and then having a rest then flying back. the cok turnaround is a killer and the hyd turn just as bad now u go to dxb then cmb 11 hrs rest then back to doh. if i get another week like that its asr every couple of nights plus a fatigue call.
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A 320 instructor reported sick for a double rotation duty, they called many instructors they said NO, we are too tired, the crew help"less" desk staff just wondered loudly why he was tired? He was in the sim for the last 2 days?!?!?
Can you imagine the mentality and quality of the people who are calling us for duty? And changing our rosters on daily basis?
Can you imagine the mentality and quality of the people who are calling us for duty? And changing our rosters on daily basis?
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News from Etihad
While I was there for the interview, I met many QA pilots.
Etihad is recruiting the good but leaving the bad and the ugly for us!
The living proof is this true story:
QA had a TRE on 320 (M.S.) who was removed from training after a hard landing in AXD during training, after a while he left to EY to fly the 330 leaving behind his no.2 brother who was promoted from right to left seat on the QA 330.
no.3 brother was flying 767 as F/O somewhere in the USA, he applied to EY, he failed the interview.
Can you guess where is he now? Direct entry F/O non type rated on the 777 for QA.
No further comment.
Etihad is recruiting the good but leaving the bad and the ugly for us!
The living proof is this true story:
QA had a TRE on 320 (M.S.) who was removed from training after a hard landing in AXD during training, after a while he left to EY to fly the 330 leaving behind his no.2 brother who was promoted from right to left seat on the QA 330.
no.3 brother was flying 767 as F/O somewhere in the USA, he applied to EY, he failed the interview.
Can you guess where is he now? Direct entry F/O non type rated on the 777 for QA.
No further comment.
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320 Man
long time, thought you have left already.
well don't remember in which thread I shared with brother Shneidertrophy a brief history on the S brothers and expectations as well, so looks like only one of the 2 leftovers still have a chance to follow MID S brothers.
Again who to blame, the recruitment team i guess.
long time, thought you have left already.
well don't remember in which thread I shared with brother Shneidertrophy a brief history on the S brothers and expectations as well, so looks like only one of the 2 leftovers still have a chance to follow MID S brothers.
Again who to blame, the recruitment team i guess.
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In the old days (before IM and BW) we used to see the instructors accepting to fly on their "OFF" days, (even when it was for free), their mobiles were always ON...etc.
But it seems the new team managed to change their attitude towards their job.
But it seems the new team managed to change their attitude towards their job.
Lately I was called more than 3 times from my standby to cover for trainers who reported sick or refused to accept a duty in a day off or even don't answer their mobile phones when they see it is the company calling.
How do you explain this change in morale of the most senior and privileged personnel of the airline?