Pay Review EK 2008
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Just had the calculator out and based on a few averages such as
550 hrs per year before overtime, (I know it varies but had to have a number)
av 3 hrs overtime per month
then this works to be 13.5 % increase. Prob just covers inflation minus the rent issue.
Hopefully the utilities and school fees will also reflect this.
Bobsback:--The 3% increment is not in my contract, never has been and never will be, it is in the HR manual. It may be in the older (>8 yrs) ones. The fact that we get it each year does not change the fact that it is subject to the same vague process as the rest of the rise.
Suspect that the level of the rise means the recruiting site was not swamped with hits after the bonus was announced
I remember AR saying in a meeting that he could not understand why experience got payed more and that his 12 yr old son could drive as well as any of us, they will pay the min they can get away with, and they will increase it in the smallest steps they can.
Still, not bad and better than I thought
550 hrs per year before overtime, (I know it varies but had to have a number)
av 3 hrs overtime per month
then this works to be 13.5 % increase. Prob just covers inflation minus the rent issue.
Hopefully the utilities and school fees will also reflect this.
Bobsback:--The 3% increment is not in my contract, never has been and never will be, it is in the HR manual. It may be in the older (>8 yrs) ones. The fact that we get it each year does not change the fact that it is subject to the same vague process as the rest of the rise.
Suspect that the level of the rise means the recruiting site was not swamped with hits after the bonus was announced
I remember AR saying in a meeting that he could not understand why experience got payed more and that his 12 yr old son could drive as well as any of us, they will pay the min they can get away with, and they will increase it in the smallest steps they can.
Still, not bad and better than I thought
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Well it covers the inflation of last year. That was 10.9% officially.
As for this year -well that leaves 1.1% to play with. Inflation over 2008 is conservatively estimated to be 15% however we all know with the increases in the first few months that the 15% is a gross underestimate. Since that estimate oil has climbed quickly and will almost certainly hit $150 before year end. Maybe sooner.
The oil prices will be transmitted into everything as all goods are dependant on oil for transportation. Especially in Dubai that doesn't grow much or produce a lot locally. There is a lag as shipping contracts precede the goods arriving on our shelves.
In a years time we will be worse off than today in real terms (what goods our money can buy)
Simple exercise: See what your new salary buys in terms of barrels of oil, ounces of gold, tonnes of rice or wheat. (A simple basket of basic goods - throw in cotton, corn, silver, steel and copper for a broader comparison.) Check what it buys a year from today and it will most definitey be less.
If inflation gets much higher here, there is a possibility of a second salary review this year. Take a place with rampant inflation in the 50-100% range: Salaries there are generally reviewed monthly to retain staff. EK might laugh at this concept but if these levels of inflation are reached they would have to, as attrition would force their hand.
If someone posts their salary over the past 8 years since 2000, I will convert it into equivalent commodities and thereby illustrate the point.
This is unlikely to be unique to Emirates however. The same exercise with a BA or SQ salary is likely to show the same result - declining value. Bonuses and flying pay should be factored in all cases. Housing, education etc should not as we are not deciding who pays the best, simply how the cash in pocket is trending.
EK are not obliged to keep salaries to a basic level of value. They will be driven by the market which illustrates one point. Aviation is a declining profession. It is largely being turned into a wage earning job and credit to EK for not being more agressive on this stance. We could have had 3% on basic and 100% on flying pay. That would be a greater increase but of far less value. If a mid term review becomes necessary they will probably increase the flying pay. Easier to manage. This would also apply to cabin crew if required.
Tough times ahead. Spend that bonus wisely. Its not an unconnected windfall. It forms part of the salary - a point EK explained to the cabin crew with their review.
As for this year -well that leaves 1.1% to play with. Inflation over 2008 is conservatively estimated to be 15% however we all know with the increases in the first few months that the 15% is a gross underestimate. Since that estimate oil has climbed quickly and will almost certainly hit $150 before year end. Maybe sooner.
The oil prices will be transmitted into everything as all goods are dependant on oil for transportation. Especially in Dubai that doesn't grow much or produce a lot locally. There is a lag as shipping contracts precede the goods arriving on our shelves.
In a years time we will be worse off than today in real terms (what goods our money can buy)
Simple exercise: See what your new salary buys in terms of barrels of oil, ounces of gold, tonnes of rice or wheat. (A simple basket of basic goods - throw in cotton, corn, silver, steel and copper for a broader comparison.) Check what it buys a year from today and it will most definitey be less.
If inflation gets much higher here, there is a possibility of a second salary review this year. Take a place with rampant inflation in the 50-100% range: Salaries there are generally reviewed monthly to retain staff. EK might laugh at this concept but if these levels of inflation are reached they would have to, as attrition would force their hand.
If someone posts their salary over the past 8 years since 2000, I will convert it into equivalent commodities and thereby illustrate the point.
This is unlikely to be unique to Emirates however. The same exercise with a BA or SQ salary is likely to show the same result - declining value. Bonuses and flying pay should be factored in all cases. Housing, education etc should not as we are not deciding who pays the best, simply how the cash in pocket is trending.
EK are not obliged to keep salaries to a basic level of value. They will be driven by the market which illustrates one point. Aviation is a declining profession. It is largely being turned into a wage earning job and credit to EK for not being more agressive on this stance. We could have had 3% on basic and 100% on flying pay. That would be a greater increase but of far less value. If a mid term review becomes necessary they will probably increase the flying pay. Easier to manage. This would also apply to cabin crew if required.
Tough times ahead. Spend that bonus wisely. Its not an unconnected windfall. It forms part of the salary - a point EK explained to the cabin crew with their review.
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Mullah
If school fees have risen each year, with some schools imposing substantial increases, are you saying that the Company shouldn't cover those rises? That money doesn't get 'spent' on luxury toys. It's spent to educate our 'brats' as you so eloquently put it and we don't get to see any of it. What we would get is an ever increasing debit on our take home pay if the Company didn't meet the rises.
Can I assume that your concern for the 'pot' to be evenly distributed will involve you sharing some of your 12% rise with the 5% the Cabin Crew recieved?
No,thought not! Choices my friend, choices.
Harry
If school fees have risen each year, with some schools imposing substantial increases, are you saying that the Company shouldn't cover those rises? That money doesn't get 'spent' on luxury toys. It's spent to educate our 'brats' as you so eloquently put it and we don't get to see any of it. What we would get is an ever increasing debit on our take home pay if the Company didn't meet the rises.
Can I assume that your concern for the 'pot' to be evenly distributed will involve you sharing some of your 12% rise with the 5% the Cabin Crew recieved?
No,thought not! Choices my friend, choices.
Harry
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.... then the married with children guys are taking from the single/no kids guys
As Harry pointed out: WE F$%#^& NEVER SEE THAT MONEY, you moron! So we cannot spend it on any toy or Russian beauty, as would be possible if it was in someone elses (i'm polite now ...) pocket.
Back home you would pay taxes, mate. With taxes they build schools, that are for free, mate! If schools cost more, taxes go up, we never see that money, but you as a freaking single pay the same taxes, mate, or even more in some places because the idea of solidarity should make you pay now for what our brats give you back later when the Russian game will no longer be possible, mate! In some places back home, the married with children even get a higher salary, mate!
Here everybody gets the same and the company provides for education, at least up to 80-90%.
So stop complaining like a spoilt single brat, mate! Concerning participation of education of kids, YOU ARE BETTER OFF HERE!!!!!
As to the guy who wears rabbit fur: Talking about a ****hole, i was looking at your location ......
Last edited by GMDS; 15th May 2008 at 04:33.
Mullah,
The kids of today are the workforce that will be paying the taxes and providing the services when you are a bitter, lonely old man in a nursing home.
Aging population is a critical long term problem in all developed countries. As such, all responsible governments provide services for families, including education (even private education is subsidized in most western countries).
Emirates needs to recruit people from these countries, so providing an education for our children is simply a way of leveling the playing field, not tilting it in our favor.
Oh and Rabbit- Nice call on the bonus and pay-rise. You were passionate, certain....and completely wrong. You seem to need to convince yourself that leaving here was a good idea. Be my guest....
As for
... Yep, them big words sure is tough, aint they???
The kids of today are the workforce that will be paying the taxes and providing the services when you are a bitter, lonely old man in a nursing home.
Aging population is a critical long term problem in all developed countries. As such, all responsible governments provide services for families, including education (even private education is subsidized in most western countries).
Emirates needs to recruit people from these countries, so providing an education for our children is simply a way of leveling the playing field, not tilting it in our favor.
Oh and Rabbit- Nice call on the bonus and pay-rise. You were passionate, certain....and completely wrong. You seem to need to convince yourself that leaving here was a good idea. Be my guest....
As for
pshyiatric
Well I dont give a toss about the Pay rise.
All I wanted was a basing or something similar.
Screw the cash im off to V......................
All most every other airline has bases unfortunately I got in to the wrong one.
All I wanted was a basing or something similar.
Screw the cash im off to V......................
All most every other airline has bases unfortunately I got in to the wrong one.
Last edited by Ramboflyer 1; 15th May 2008 at 05:30. Reason: more
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Rabbitwear,
So, Nostradamus of the North, allow me to rub your furry little face in a few of your predictions:
Your psychiatrist has probably told you this already, but you spend way too much time on this site - an airline you don't even work for.
In your last attempt, you use a disparaging term for Dubai. Ironic, considering that the annual social and cultural highlight in your neck of the woods (no pun intended) is the Iditarod.
Where I come from, we have a name for people like you. It starts with a W. And you don't even have to be good at predictions to work that one out.
So, Nostradamus of the North, allow me to rub your furry little face in a few of your predictions:
You guys are in for a very rude shock if you think there will be any payrise.
6 weeks and no payrise , maybe a reduction in flight pay. The aviation boom cycle is always very short.
How about this one. 10% payrise but productivity doesnt start till around 90 hours.
Expect flight pay to be scrapped , no more than the 3% salary step and paid for actual hours instead of block. Thats your pay rise.
I have a friend 340 Captain for another company enquired to EK and was told in 18 months there will be DEC positions on A380.
My estimate for 2008 is around 200 pilots will leave thats 10% , thats at least 10 aircraft grounded unless they employ 700 this year.
In your last attempt, you use a disparaging term for Dubai. Ironic, considering that the annual social and cultural highlight in your neck of the woods (no pun intended) is the Iditarod.
Where I come from, we have a name for people like you. It starts with a W. And you don't even have to be good at predictions to work that one out.
Last edited by desert queen; 15th May 2008 at 08:47.
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This example is from a 4 year captain scale.
2007/2008
basic 33500
flight pay 3510
prod pay 3255 (based on 85 hours)
total 40265.
2008/2009
basic 37610
flight pay 4680
prod pay 3675 (based on 85 hours)
total 45965.
Then 40265. Now 45965. Equals 14.2% raise or 5700.
5700x12=68400dhs or 18637 usd. To clear that in your home country you have to consider tax. If you pay 40% tax you need 31061 usd before taxes. Not a bad raise.
Now we wait for next year.
7
2007/2008
basic 33500
flight pay 3510
prod pay 3255 (based on 85 hours)
total 40265.
2008/2009
basic 37610
flight pay 4680
prod pay 3675 (based on 85 hours)
total 45965.
Then 40265. Now 45965. Equals 14.2% raise or 5700.
5700x12=68400dhs or 18637 usd. To clear that in your home country you have to consider tax. If you pay 40% tax you need 31061 usd before taxes. Not a bad raise.
Now we wait for next year.
7
Rambo,
Absolute best of luck. You've obviously not been happy here, so you're doing the right thing. Hope it all goes well.
Just don't come onto D&G in six months whinging about pay, tax, fuel or house prices!
Absolute best of luck. You've obviously not been happy here, so you're doing the right thing. Hope it all goes well.
Just don't come onto D&G in six months whinging about pay, tax, fuel or house prices!
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Mullah - agree with most of what you write - not the tone of it but, hey, whatever you like.
However, you say the company shouldn't fully catar for inflation since expat pilot send money home. Why not?? First, not all send money home. More importantly, if the company wants to take that stand then it becomes an easy arguement to say that if they don't care about inflation here (due expay pilots sending money home) then they should care FULLY about exchange rates (becuase the pilot are sending money home) and adjust pay accordingly because. EK can't have it both ways!!!!! But then again, I have never heard EK make an arguement. I have only heard pilots on hear with opinions.
In the end the simple fact is that EK relies on foreign labour and skill. SO they have to counter inflation - or people leave and they have to deal with FX rates (which have the perverse effect of pushing inflation)- or people leave.
People can claim what they like about it not being the companies responsibility but the fact is, just like in any other country, the airline has to deal with all of these outside influences as best they can. It is a balancing act between pay/benefits and retention and ahppy staff. Somewhere along this sliding scale is an effiecient range of pay that keeps both side relatively happy.
So, in the end, everything is EK's responsibility to one degree or another.
Now that I am on a role I would also add that the benefits side of the pay equation could be used very effectively at EK. The added benefit of a good jump seat program are HUGE. Not because it might allow the odd guy to commute (because even JS's can not ensure a guy can commute) but becasue it would make vacations, travelling etc more effective. It would also allow you, if structured correctly, to take your wife/teen etc on a trip. You work a lot here why not take the wife on a trip everty once and a while!
A properly structured program would do a lot to improve moral and could be developed so that a strict set of rules prevents abuse. To me it is a no brainer.
There are lots of non monetary benefits that cost little but could be used effectively to 'sooth' the employees.
However, you say the company shouldn't fully catar for inflation since expat pilot send money home. Why not?? First, not all send money home. More importantly, if the company wants to take that stand then it becomes an easy arguement to say that if they don't care about inflation here (due expay pilots sending money home) then they should care FULLY about exchange rates (becuase the pilot are sending money home) and adjust pay accordingly because. EK can't have it both ways!!!!! But then again, I have never heard EK make an arguement. I have only heard pilots on hear with opinions.
In the end the simple fact is that EK relies on foreign labour and skill. SO they have to counter inflation - or people leave and they have to deal with FX rates (which have the perverse effect of pushing inflation)- or people leave.
People can claim what they like about it not being the companies responsibility but the fact is, just like in any other country, the airline has to deal with all of these outside influences as best they can. It is a balancing act between pay/benefits and retention and ahppy staff. Somewhere along this sliding scale is an effiecient range of pay that keeps both side relatively happy.
So, in the end, everything is EK's responsibility to one degree or another.
Now that I am on a role I would also add that the benefits side of the pay equation could be used very effectively at EK. The added benefit of a good jump seat program are HUGE. Not because it might allow the odd guy to commute (because even JS's can not ensure a guy can commute) but becasue it would make vacations, travelling etc more effective. It would also allow you, if structured correctly, to take your wife/teen etc on a trip. You work a lot here why not take the wife on a trip everty once and a while!
A properly structured program would do a lot to improve moral and could be developed so that a strict set of rules prevents abuse. To me it is a no brainer.
There are lots of non monetary benefits that cost little but could be used effectively to 'sooth' the employees.
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Dear Mullah
Well, well, ... YOU were the first one to complain of not getting your part of the education pie, weren't you? Speaking about not getting it: If you think that if this pot was not directly payed to the schools, it would be evenly distributed among all pilots, then you are some selection error. It would remain in the Sheikey's pocket. Your ".... gimme, gimme, gimme" is a game these guys play way better.
No. As you so eloquently put it elsewhere: We do the same job, so at the end of the day we should have the same amount on our account. It makes no difference to you or me if i have my number of kids and you will soon have yours. Now that should seem logical and fair to the average IQ.
On one point at least, I can agree with you:
So you might as well cope with this reality. It had been that way when you signed up.
And by the way, I did mention accomodation further up, it just takes a little reading. But you merely started whining about not getting to the education pot, while doing nothing close to education up to now (oh, yes, you'll eventually wake up and have to deliver...). So I answered to that one.
On the other hand you boast:
.... just to state about yourself:
no comment ....
Well Mullah, I for one did, and it worked just great.
Happy flying, hopefully not with me.
...those who did try to work the system and are now crying about it.
Do you not see a larger value in your bank account as a result of not having to pay the full cost of schooling yourself? Obviously you do see the result of the school fees then.
On one point at least, I can agree with you:
No one gives a flying f*** about how your country works back home. The reality is here.
And by the way, I did mention accomodation further up, it just takes a little reading. But you merely started whining about not getting to the education pot, while doing nothing close to education up to now (oh, yes, you'll eventually wake up and have to deliver...). So I answered to that one.
On the other hand you boast:
I can now see where the saying about a fool and his money comes from but what I don't understand is how you ever managed to come into money in the first place.
we never decided to try and make money out of the system by moving out
Well Mullah, I for one did, and it worked just great.
Happy flying, hopefully not with me.
Muulah,
In your zeal to be right, you didn't catch the intent of what I* said.
I don't think EK could care less if my kids get educated. I was pointing out why YOU should!
I was also pointing out that, as Emirates need to recruit pilots from places where society (in the form of taxation and government expenditure) provides or at least subsidises education, Emirates has to do likewise in order to attract people with families to the company.
This has been pointed out to you every time you've embarked on this little crusade, but you've chosen to ignore it, as it might involve you listening to an alternate opinion.
Interesting to note that you too are about to join the ranks of parenthood. I assume where ever you are when your child reaches school age, you will turn down any company or government offer of financial support for their education on a point of principle, "No, that wouldn't be fair, go share it out amongst the boys!"??
In your zeal to be right, you didn't catch the intent of what I* said.
I don't think EK could care less if my kids get educated. I was pointing out why YOU should!
I was also pointing out that, as Emirates need to recruit pilots from places where society (in the form of taxation and government expenditure) provides or at least subsidises education, Emirates has to do likewise in order to attract people with families to the company.
This has been pointed out to you every time you've embarked on this little crusade, but you've chosen to ignore it, as it might involve you listening to an alternate opinion.
Interesting to note that you too are about to join the ranks of parenthood. I assume where ever you are when your child reaches school age, you will turn down any company or government offer of financial support for their education on a point of principle, "No, that wouldn't be fair, go share it out amongst the boys!"??
I'll take whatever's going because that is the deal. What I WON'T do is whinge later on to the single guys that the education allowance isn't enough...........
Sorry, but that is rather breathtaking hypocracy.
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Can someone Please explain the 9 and 3?
Hello! Could someone please explain the 9 and 3? We are hopefully interviewing this summer and are wondering what that means to first year pay? Thanks so much. Also could someone tell us what your FO bonus was this year. Thanks
I am sure my husband would know...but I am a wife with little airline lingo in my vocab. Thanks
I am sure my husband would know...but I am a wife with little airline lingo in my vocab. Thanks
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Actually it does make a difference; try to see the big picture: There's a limited amount of pie in the budget to be served up as reimbursement (inducement) to the pilots. For every kid one of us has, there's a little less for the guy who does not have a kid. If they took away the education allowance there'd be more cash spread around everyone as salary. Simple.
But reading the above shows otherwise. I pity you, but in the end it's your choice how you try to fit into society. Just bear the consequences.
One consequence applies to us, here in this society: You are definitely not suited for a cockpit with more than yourself in it. I am not mad, just analytic.
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Education allowance is there for you to take. Should we ask the company to cancel ALTs (with the extra money they save and share with us, those who want to travel can buy themselves tickets). Or cancel vacations because some poeple don't use them (you want leave, buy some days off from the company)?
If you don't use everything that is offered, it is your problem.
If you don't use everything that is offered, it is your problem.