DXB Radar vectoring 7th /8th
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DXB Radar vectoring 7th /8th
Would someone from ATC please like to explain to me what on earth was going on last night with the vectoring onto Dubai.
Whilst I'm most definitely not an air traffic controller and know very little about ATC in general I do know that last night was probably the worst I have ever experienced in my 5 years here in Dubai.
Arriving at just after midnight which I know is a busy time we were asked by UAE to speed up for the descent to 320kts, then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI so we put into the FMC the expected hold, 23 miles to run to DESDI on a track of about 125 slow 230kts and turn left HDG 060, after about 5 mins turn right HDG 230 then after about another 5 mins on that HDG turn left track to DESDI. At DESDI HDG 090all the way to the coast then turn right 180 degrees vectoring ILS 12L. All of which used some 2 tonnes extra fuel, not that I care because I don't pay for the stuff, but it was about 15 mins of messing around when i could have been on my way home!
Will someone please explain what is the DESDI hold for? Why fly us all around the GULF on stupid headings and speeds when all you have to do is put us into a published hold, drop us down and pull us out the bottom for the approach. They seem to do it quite well at LHR and other such places so why not here?
ATC please...................Over
Whilst I'm most definitely not an air traffic controller and know very little about ATC in general I do know that last night was probably the worst I have ever experienced in my 5 years here in Dubai.
Arriving at just after midnight which I know is a busy time we were asked by UAE to speed up for the descent to 320kts, then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI so we put into the FMC the expected hold, 23 miles to run to DESDI on a track of about 125 slow 230kts and turn left HDG 060, after about 5 mins turn right HDG 230 then after about another 5 mins on that HDG turn left track to DESDI. At DESDI HDG 090all the way to the coast then turn right 180 degrees vectoring ILS 12L. All of which used some 2 tonnes extra fuel, not that I care because I don't pay for the stuff, but it was about 15 mins of messing around when i could have been on my way home!
Will someone please explain what is the DESDI hold for? Why fly us all around the GULF on stupid headings and speeds when all you have to do is put us into a published hold, drop us down and pull us out the bottom for the approach. They seem to do it quite well at LHR and other such places so why not here?
ATC please...................Over
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Puff....
Clarify
....
Dubai don't issue the hold, UAE control does.
A typical scenario for UAE control is to be providing the required (and extremely excessive) spacing requirements for DXB approach and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time.
The reality is with no flow management processes in place, no slot times, antiquated routing structures, poor equipment, horrendous traffic growth, intra Gulf and International political considerations, incompetent management and staff shortages, the troops in all the tower, approach and area units don't stand a hope in hell in providing the more typical service that one comes to expect in many locations through out the world.
Ho hum.....correct me if I am wrong, but aren't these all the same issues that get raised on an almost daily basis in this region. Same crap, different day, welcome to the Middle East.
then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI
Dubai don't issue the hold, UAE control does.
A typical scenario for UAE control is to be providing the required (and extremely excessive) spacing requirements for DXB approach and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time.
The reality is with no flow management processes in place, no slot times, antiquated routing structures, poor equipment, horrendous traffic growth, intra Gulf and International political considerations, incompetent management and staff shortages, the troops in all the tower, approach and area units don't stand a hope in hell in providing the more typical service that one comes to expect in many locations through out the world.
Ho hum.....correct me if I am wrong, but aren't these all the same issues that get raised on an almost daily basis in this region. Same crap, different day, welcome to the Middle East.
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if it is any consolation it is going to get worse before it gets better. As foxxie said this place is a mess. The bad vectoring, speed ups & slow downs and delays are going to get worse. The regions traffic build up
is now also resulting in a/c going from en-route holding in Muscats airspace to join the BUBIN hold, last week an Emirates flight from SA was delayed for nearly an hour due to traffic alone.
At the UAE (DESDI & BUBIN holds) we are heading for a staffing crisis this summer with a run of resignations. I would guess that 5min departure slots will become the norm as well as the 20Nm arrival sequence for Dubai.
I am not going to bag the DXB approach guys cause they are under the same pressure if not worse than we are. I would also like to thank the Muscat troops who helped us out the other night, get used to the holding fellas
You won't get too many turns from me , I like 'hold at', EAT's (SDT's) & 'turn inbound' .....mostly cause I can't tell me left from right
and foxxie it's SDT's - stack departure times, my STD's cleared up before I left the merchant navy
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Funk...
Phew! Thank goodness you clarified that mate, you know I am not good at those TLA's! 
MAX Happy to get rid of them mate, I am sure Dubai would love to add them to the list of 'Things to do' in the already saturated TMA. Also more than happy to give back some of the TMA airspace that we administer and oooh! while we are at it we can give Fujeirah and RAK. Stuff me, after all that we may even resemble a more typical Area unit...but lets not let fantasy get in the road!
It is certainly a carry over from the days of the Great Dane when he went on his airspace and procedures 'grabbing raid' on all the adjacent units.
MAX Happy to get rid of them mate, I am sure Dubai would love to add them to the list of 'Things to do' in the already saturated TMA. Also more than happy to give back some of the TMA airspace that we administer and oooh! while we are at it we can give Fujeirah and RAK. Stuff me, after all that we may even resemble a more typical Area unit...but lets not let fantasy get in the road!
It is certainly a carry over from the days of the Great Dane when he went on his airspace and procedures 'grabbing raid' on all the adjacent units.
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Actually I'd prefer the hold instead of all this random vectoring, because at least in the hold you can manage your fuel situation better. When you get vectored to the extent that's been going on of late, you have very little idea of how far/long you are going to be vectored for.
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Lord Flashhart.
Thanks for that, someone with the same thoughts as me.
NO LAND 3.
Waste of a post, i don't complain about ATC but the night in question was ridiculous.
Anyone from ATC like to comment?
Thanks for that, someone with the same thoughts as me.
NO LAND 3.
Waste of a post, i don't complain about ATC but the night in question was ridiculous.
Anyone from ATC like to comment?
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Cut and paste here what F3SS and Funk said. Add to that EK ops who think that it is a good idea to let all their aircraft arrive at the same time. Yes, EK is the architect of their own misery. Why not ask your Milkshake to allow inbound and outbound slots at DXB? This will more than likely put a stop to the nightly/early morning shenanigans taking place all over the Gulf.
They seem to do it quite well at LHR and other such places so why not here?
EK please...................Over
EK please...................Over
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Vox...
Here here!And while we are at it. lets not forget the schedule duplication and conflictions with ABY, GFA, ETD, QTR, JZR, AXB, AIC, IAC, JAI, to name but a few. Kingfisher starting in August as well to add to the 'confirms' on frequency!
Of course not forgetting all local operator fleet expansion to ensure they are not left behind in the big willy swordfight with he who has the most toys wins!
Can't wait for Jebal Ali to open though, that is going to solve all of our problems and we won't have to waste all our time on Pprune bleating about poor planning , conjestion, equipment, salaries, staffing or the price of eggs. We won't know what to do with ourselves!
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Fox3snapshot
How many times UAE calls us in DXB “(contravening the local agreement for required notice)”, for any flow restrictions through the gates for our departures, instead of abiding to the ‘usual 10 mins NOTICE’??
max AB
It is all political, we are all so close (as neighbours) BUT YET SO FAR when it comes to common sense & updating LOAs between ALL ACCs/UIRs/FIRs
NO LAND 3
Hey Mate, I’ll offer you a Beer.. couldn’t have said it better than me!!
VoxPopuli
Besides the ‘Open Skies Policy’ here in DXB, things do not get better especially when our Main Based Operator – EK, don’t make matters easier for us ALL & ESPECIALLY THEMSELVES!
And last but not least before EK Crews start mocking DXB ATC, it is better if EK Flt.Ops have a good look at their own recruitment, & monitor ‘some’ of their Crews with their childish behaviour & actions in & around DXB Airspace & Aerodrome, as it seems some of the EK Crews have flown in or out for the 1st time….Things like these are normally not performed by the Base Carrier…….
A typical scenario for UAE control is to be providing the required (and extremely excessive) spacing requirements for DXB approach and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time.
How many times UAE calls us in DXB “(contravening the local agreement for required notice)”, for any flow restrictions through the gates for our departures, instead of abiding to the ‘usual 10 mins NOTICE’??
max AB
Why doesn't Dubai own the Bubin and Desdi holds??? Or is it a case of they're mine and you can't have them...
NO LAND 3
Nothing more boring than flying with someone who complains about ATC all the time.
Just relax, follow the instructions and roll with it.
Its no big deal.
Just relax, follow the instructions and roll with it.
Its no big deal.
VoxPopuli
Cut and paste here what F3SS and Funk said. Add to that EK ops who think that it is a good idea to let all their aircraft arrive at the same time. Yes, EK is the architect of their own misery. Why not ask your Milkshake to allow inbound and outbound slots at DXB? This will more than likely put a stop to the nightly/early morning shenanigans taking place all over the Gulf.
Besides the ‘Open Skies Policy’ here in DXB, things do not get better especially when our Main Based Operator – EK, don’t make matters easier for us ALL & ESPECIALLY THEMSELVES!
And last but not least before EK Crews start mocking DXB ATC, it is better if EK Flt.Ops have a good look at their own recruitment, & monitor ‘some’ of their Crews with their childish behaviour & actions in & around DXB Airspace & Aerodrome, as it seems some of the EK Crews have flown in or out for the 1st time….Things like these are normally not performed by the Base Carrier…….
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And lets not forget about the calls with tears and begging from DXB approach to relax the DARAX flow
The only good thing on your (UAE)sides, some of all this can be partially attributed to EK Flt Ops, for not 'splitting' their departures between RANBI/MAXMO......
Having said all this, once you ALSO get a call from EK OPS or lets say the Big Sheikh, of course a miracle happens, & somehow there are no longer any flows......
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Having said all this, once you ALSO get a call from EK OPS or lets say the Big Sheikh, of course a miracle happens, & somehow there are no longer any flows......
Argghhhmmm, yaaaawn..... same ol same ol
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As you (UAE ACC) are perhaps unable to cope...
You are after all unable to cope with our massive amount off arrivals in the evenings and early mornings. But do we scream and shout and spit like infants? No, we stick them in the hold and to hell with anybody who complains about fuel. Then we give you the required inbound spacing, be it 15 or 20 or 30 nm. So why do you find it so difficult to give us the required outbound spacing? Why does it take 6, yes six phonecalls and a fax to get you to comply with the required MAXMO flow? Is your TWR controller dyslexic or incompetent or both?
Always remember that we can see all your traffic, inbound and outbound, because either we put them their or we are going to receive them. You on the other hand do not see all our traffic. Their is a bigger world out their than your bit of airspace. AUH never has a problem with flow, neither does Doha, they just comply.
Is it really so hard to comply with our flow or are you just being obtuse?
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Considering it's such an ugly mess at times with the waves of inbounds and outbounds combined with the restrictions - well done Dubai ATC (generally)
But please just keep us in the hold and don't vector us to hell and back - as has been said, in the hold makes it easier for us to keep tabs on the fuel!!
No Land 3 - bl00dy well said, roll with it.
)But please just keep us in the hold and don't vector us to hell and back - as has been said, in the hold makes it easier for us to keep tabs on the fuel!!
No Land 3 - bl00dy well said, roll with it.
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Voxpopuli
You got it WRONG mate...Did I ever express anything like this? NO.....It was ONLY your so called 'colleague' Fox3snapshot who was instigating with "and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time. "
Are we unable to cope?? ha ha,,,,good 1.....No wonder birds of the same feathers WORK together.....
Regarding your other instigation of 6 calls which you seem to get from under your seat....It is not that our ATCOs don't abide or whatever you called us, but DO you think it makes sense to call & impose a Flow on MAXMO Especially, when we have no flows, with around 5 for the same gate ALREADY @ the Holding point?? That makes SENSE huh....???
The fact is mate that we are unable to cope, simple as that. That is why we institute a flow restriction. If you obtain some form of perverted satisfaction to see a fellow controller go under and have a reduction because of your action, then I pity you.
You are after all unable to cope with our massive amount off arrivals in the evenings and early mornings. But do we scream and shout and spit like infants? No, we stick them in the hold and to hell with anybody who complains about fuel. Then we give you the required inbound spacing, be it 15 or 20 or 30 nm. So why do you find it so difficult to give us the required outbound spacing? Why does it take 6, yes six phonecalls and a fax to get you to comply with the required MAXMO flow? Is your TWR controller dyslexic or incompetent or both?
Regarding your other instigation of 6 calls which you seem to get from under your seat....It is not that our ATCOs don't abide or whatever you called us, but DO you think it makes sense to call & impose a Flow on MAXMO Especially, when we have no flows, with around 5 for the same gate ALREADY @ the Holding point?? That makes SENSE huh....???