DXB Radar vectoring 7th /8th
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Oh but of course, I almost forgot, EK is the only operator in this FIR and warrant their own personal liaison officer to ensure their operations are unaffected!! How silly of me.... 
going to dxb
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to all pilots .....make sure t take extra fuel any time yo go to DXB not only for holding but also for long taxi.
Let's get serious.....If only EK Flt Ops plan a better and efficient flight schedule by filing many of their peak departure flights through different gates, it would certainly help matters more, for US ATC & finally for YOU EK Pilots & the poor pax on board!!
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Oh but of course, I almost forgot, EK is the only operator in this FIR and warrant their own personal liaison officer to ensure their operations are unaffected!! How silly of me....
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Flow control
Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.
The reason that you get away earlier is through the hard work and professionalism of the UAE controllers helping out the Dubai guys.
Someone has already pointed out, Dubai tower start up loads hoping that there will be a relaxing of Flow restrictions. Sometimes it just won't happen no matter how much they want it.
The guy doing the DARAX rush is also the guy doing the Eastbound departures AND the inbound MAXMO stuff...oh yeah, and the BUBIN stack and low level overflyers, RAK and FUJ ins and outs. But apart from that, he basically sits on his a$$ and does crosswords
The EK boys definitely should come on down to Ab Dab and see what goes on, they will be made more than welcome, especially at the busy times of the shifts.
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So we can all keep this bantering / complaining / purse fighting going on or we (DXB/AUH) can try to do something to fix it... It's been far too long that we've been blaming management, the color brown, some Danish guy who's not even here anymore, and anything else we can think of, for all the drama and cat fights we give each other on a nightly basis.
Here's a really scary example of how quickly we could fix most of the problems we argue about every day.
We Dubai, would NOT ask for less then 5 minutes through Maxmo. Ever. Tower would know not to bother to start everyone, because the chance of UAE accepting less then 5 minutes would be = None. Is it expeditious? Nope, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to be expeditious? Nope!
Conversely, on the night shifts, 20miles inbound through the straight in gate, and 15 through the non straight in gate. Inbounds through Maxmo are co-ordinated as to where they fit in.
It would certainly upset me sitting in arrivals seeing guys in the hold with no need for it, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to co-ordinate individual spacing for inbound ac with UAE? Nope. Our own procedures tell us we're not supposed to. But of course we want to be expeditious, and it ends up getting everyone pissed off at each other when it doesn't work out properly.
If we just did those 2 things, 2 small things, we would end about 90% of the fights we get into with each other.
Some on both sides (myself included) will say "why hold guys when there is no reason to?" Or "Why delay start ups when there is no reason to?"
1. Our procedures tell us to, and we technically are breaking our procedures to do anything else,
2. We (UAE and DXB) do not have the ability to co-ordinate on an adhoc basis. Sorry but on a unit level, we just DO NOT. This post is a testament to that. If there was a dedicated planning position on both sides, with an open hotline between each other and experienced people on both sides of the line, I think together we could co-ordinate the outbound/inbound flows to a very high level of expedition, as high as possible given the equipment and procedures we have. But we don't and I don't think will for a while.
3. It is the only way things will get changed. (Procedures / Staff / Equipment)
Also, if some AUH and some DXB controllers (preferably from as many different watches as possible) got together somewhere outside of work, and made some "between actual controller" agreements, as to what we do(for example the 2 things mentioned above), I think this place could become a much safer, happier place to work in. That would involve maybe a couple of off hours for the people concerned, but it would go a long way in inter-unit relations, no???
If we couldn't come to an agreement, at least we can just beat the hell outta each other with our purses, and argue about paycheques, and who does the most work!
Here's a really scary example of how quickly we could fix most of the problems we argue about every day.
We Dubai, would NOT ask for less then 5 minutes through Maxmo. Ever. Tower would know not to bother to start everyone, because the chance of UAE accepting less then 5 minutes would be = None. Is it expeditious? Nope, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to be expeditious? Nope!
Conversely, on the night shifts, 20miles inbound through the straight in gate, and 15 through the non straight in gate. Inbounds through Maxmo are co-ordinated as to where they fit in.
It would certainly upset me sitting in arrivals seeing guys in the hold with no need for it, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to co-ordinate individual spacing for inbound ac with UAE? Nope. Our own procedures tell us we're not supposed to. But of course we want to be expeditious, and it ends up getting everyone pissed off at each other when it doesn't work out properly.
If we just did those 2 things, 2 small things, we would end about 90% of the fights we get into with each other.
Some on both sides (myself included) will say "why hold guys when there is no reason to?" Or "Why delay start ups when there is no reason to?"
1. Our procedures tell us to, and we technically are breaking our procedures to do anything else,
2. We (UAE and DXB) do not have the ability to co-ordinate on an adhoc basis. Sorry but on a unit level, we just DO NOT. This post is a testament to that. If there was a dedicated planning position on both sides, with an open hotline between each other and experienced people on both sides of the line, I think together we could co-ordinate the outbound/inbound flows to a very high level of expedition, as high as possible given the equipment and procedures we have. But we don't and I don't think will for a while.
3. It is the only way things will get changed. (Procedures / Staff / Equipment)
Also, if some AUH and some DXB controllers (preferably from as many different watches as possible) got together somewhere outside of work, and made some "between actual controller" agreements, as to what we do(for example the 2 things mentioned above), I think this place could become a much safer, happier place to work in. That would involve maybe a couple of off hours for the people concerned, but it would go a long way in inter-unit relations, no???
If we couldn't come to an agreement, at least we can just beat the hell outta each other with our purses, and argue about paycheques, and who does the most work!
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Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.
Hey you futr-kofeshop-dweler (ex-fksd) would 'av thought u'd be on the water-bed right now.......
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My "Quote" function doesn't seem to exist anymore, so I can't quote from F K S D's last post, but his points are very relevent.
Why are we all busting a gut trying to get things moving faster, when technically we aren't supposed to coordinate individual less than the stated in trail sep or dct routings to expedite traffic?
All it needs is a go around or a couple of intra UAE arrs, to upset the applecart and lead to the conga dance towards SHJ and then slot into the down wind pattern for "straight in" traffic when we've already reduced the prescribed 15/20 mile in trail sep to expedite tfc / reduce UAE Holds etc. If we didn't try to help out it wouldn't happen
The Maxmo deps ... Hands up ... our GMP/GMC controllers HAVE to take more responsibility for regulating start ups on that route, and not rely on a reduction from the 5 mins "standard". Unfortunately it actually makes us busier slowing down traffic and having to explain that the start up times (which aren't really Dep Slot times)are to acheive 5 mins in trail of the previous dep on the same route(regardless of requested cruise level/speed), taking into account some taxiing times to the Holding point can vary from 2 mins to nearly 15 mins and push back times / ready for taxi can vary as much
. Depending on Rwy in use/taxiway availability we do end up with only Maxmo deps at the Holding Points 
At peak times(especially morning rush westbound) there can be an expected delay of up to an hour, with 5 mins in trail thru Ranbi and Maxmo.
The phenomenal growth rate of air traffic over the last 10 years or so, in the Middle East area has swamped an already behind the curve ATC set up, staffing level/workload, airspace structure/procedures.
There can't be many places though that have 1 a/c thru a dep gate every 5 mins regardless of cruise level, or 20 miles in trail inbound to a 2 Rwy operation (admittedtedly dependent rather than independent ops).
In closure, we work or arses off and the system still sucks
Why are we all busting a gut trying to get things moving faster, when technically we aren't supposed to coordinate individual less than the stated in trail sep or dct routings to expedite traffic?
All it needs is a go around or a couple of intra UAE arrs, to upset the applecart and lead to the conga dance towards SHJ and then slot into the down wind pattern for "straight in" traffic when we've already reduced the prescribed 15/20 mile in trail sep to expedite tfc / reduce UAE Holds etc. If we didn't try to help out it wouldn't happen
The Maxmo deps ... Hands up ... our GMP/GMC controllers HAVE to take more responsibility for regulating start ups on that route, and not rely on a reduction from the 5 mins "standard". Unfortunately it actually makes us busier slowing down traffic and having to explain that the start up times (which aren't really Dep Slot times)are to acheive 5 mins in trail of the previous dep on the same route(regardless of requested cruise level/speed), taking into account some taxiing times to the Holding point can vary from 2 mins to nearly 15 mins and push back times / ready for taxi can vary as much
. Depending on Rwy in use/taxiway availability we do end up with only Maxmo deps at the Holding Points At peak times(especially morning rush westbound) there can be an expected delay of up to an hour, with 5 mins in trail thru Ranbi and Maxmo.
The phenomenal growth rate of air traffic over the last 10 years or so, in the Middle East area has swamped an already behind the curve ATC set up, staffing level/workload, airspace structure/procedures.
There can't be many places though that have 1 a/c thru a dep gate every 5 mins regardless of cruise level, or 20 miles in trail inbound to a 2 Rwy operation (admittedtedly dependent rather than independent ops).
In closure, we work or arses off and the system still sucks
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Liaison
Flow control
Quote:
Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.
Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.
Quote:
Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.
Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.
1. You tell EK Liaison that there's too many MAXMO departures
2. Laiison calls EK dispatch to reroute 10 of the 20 dep's via RANBI
3. Dispatch sends the aircraft a new flight plan via ACARS
4. In 6 minutes time flow control problem solved.
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A suggestion from someone to the east of you guys...
At the start of each hour, about 5 mins in, give us a call to see who answers. Depending on the answer (I'll leave that up to you to decipher) you can then ask for 10/15/20 through two certain gates and you WILL get it, 99% of the time treating the two gates as one. We love to sequence, but we also love to know if the b.... hold will be used as we can then keep the arrivals high and not play too much with their speed. But don't get too used to it as the ranks here are thinning fast (to your benefit manning wise).
Three with their resignations in, and several more waiting for the opportune time to hand theirs in ....not that resignations are needed as new contracts are yet to be seen.
At the start of each hour, about 5 mins in, give us a call to see who answers. Depending on the answer (I'll leave that up to you to decipher) you can then ask for 10/15/20 through two certain gates and you WILL get it, 99% of the time treating the two gates as one. We love to sequence, but we also love to know if the b.... hold will be used as we can then keep the arrivals high and not play too much with their speed. But don't get too used to it as the ranks here are thinning fast (to your benefit manning wise).
Three with their resignations in, and several more waiting for the opportune time to hand theirs in ....not that resignations are needed as new contracts are yet to be seen.
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If we just did those 2 things, 2 small things, we would end about 90% of the fights we get into with each other.
).I am now officially signing up to the "5/15/20 Club". 5 minutes MAXMO, 15/20NM DESDI/BUBIN. To hell with carrying the system on my back. You want me to walk the extra mile, then supply the Nike.
But I would like to suggest the "5/10/15/20 Club". Add the 10NM in trail through RANBI. If all belong to this club, I think we'll get on like a house on fire. No more Louis Vuitton handbags at dawn. It will take a monumental shift in attitude to achieve this, but the outcome will be reward enough.
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I'm in! The 5/10/15/20 Club sounds like a plan until at least UAE staffing, and the Maxmo procedures are sorted out. (So for a long long time)
Whilst taking time off from my waterbed escapades, I was thinking back on a previous post on this thread from the pilot who thought how professional LHR is because inbound ac go into the hold and then straight in for their approach. I started wondering how many LHR arrival controllers take time out to range out to 120nm (that would be out by Amsterdam somewhere by the way) and see if anyone 100nm away can go direct a 10NM final. Or maybe, how many times does LHR tower get on the phone to LHR Departure, which calls LHR Enroute to ask for less outbound spacing, because this really really angry dispatch guy from BA called and wants to know why the Delhi flight is dealyed because his cousin is onboard. I am not a very smart man, but I'm thinking this would never happen in the "Professional" part of the world. Yet we do this all the time! And for what? To be told by pilots how "Unprofessional" we are because we had to vector a/c out of the hold when the planned inbound spacing didn't work out due to unforseen factors. (ie: go around, low vis, tower needing extra space due to the fact they are now controlling out of a laundry closet, where each controller in the VCR gets a 8% view of the airport)
SO yes, the 5/10/15/20 club is a wonderful idea until someone comes up with better, who else is in?
I notice also with some dissapointment that some of the controllers from UAE ACC who have the most gripes and post on pretty much every thread containing the letters U A or E on pprune have been quiet when it comes time to start coming up with ideas on how to make work more bearable amongst ourselves. Interesting....
Well that's been 10 minutes, my stocks are back up to firing strength, the bedroom beckons!
Whilst taking time off from my waterbed escapades, I was thinking back on a previous post on this thread from the pilot who thought how professional LHR is because inbound ac go into the hold and then straight in for their approach. I started wondering how many LHR arrival controllers take time out to range out to 120nm (that would be out by Amsterdam somewhere by the way) and see if anyone 100nm away can go direct a 10NM final. Or maybe, how many times does LHR tower get on the phone to LHR Departure, which calls LHR Enroute to ask for less outbound spacing, because this really really angry dispatch guy from BA called and wants to know why the Delhi flight is dealyed because his cousin is onboard. I am not a very smart man, but I'm thinking this would never happen in the "Professional" part of the world. Yet we do this all the time! And for what? To be told by pilots how "Unprofessional" we are because we had to vector a/c out of the hold when the planned inbound spacing didn't work out due to unforseen factors. (ie: go around, low vis, tower needing extra space due to the fact they are now controlling out of a laundry closet, where each controller in the VCR gets a 8% view of the airport)
SO yes, the 5/10/15/20 club is a wonderful idea until someone comes up with better, who else is in?
I notice also with some dissapointment that some of the controllers from UAE ACC who have the most gripes and post on pretty much every thread containing the letters U A or E on pprune have been quiet when it comes time to start coming up with ideas on how to make work more bearable amongst ourselves. Interesting....
Well that's been 10 minutes, my stocks are back up to firing strength, the bedroom beckons!
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F-K-D, dunno if that was aimed at me, but I have been reading with interest but trying for a change to stay out of the usual argument that goes on between Dubai and us.
I agree with the sentiment that reducing spacing either in or out of Dubai is not going to gain any praise or thanks from anyone, and that when it all goes tits up, as it invariably will due to the inadequate/nonexistent arrival flow procedures and dangerous airspace design/sectorisation, the people to cop the abuse will be those that tried to help by reducing spacing.
In saying that there are times where common sense can prevail, that is, always give priority to arrivals over departures, after all a guy on the ground is not going to hit anyone or declare a fuel emergency. Also if Dubai wants to have 20 miles through each gate, and DESDI hold is chockers and BUBIN is ok, why not give us 10 or 15 through DESDI and ask for 30 through BUBIN. Still getting the same spacing in the end but giving some relief to the guy that needs it.
Anyway don't take my recent silence on here as lack of support for actually finding agreement on how to achieve improved relations and operations between the 2 units. It is just that I am tired of beating my head against a wall, and think the only thing that will really change things will be when the endless inneffectual meetings end, and people get together and actually sort this dangerous mess out.
Enjoy the discussion.
I agree with the sentiment that reducing spacing either in or out of Dubai is not going to gain any praise or thanks from anyone, and that when it all goes tits up, as it invariably will due to the inadequate/nonexistent arrival flow procedures and dangerous airspace design/sectorisation, the people to cop the abuse will be those that tried to help by reducing spacing.
In saying that there are times where common sense can prevail, that is, always give priority to arrivals over departures, after all a guy on the ground is not going to hit anyone or declare a fuel emergency. Also if Dubai wants to have 20 miles through each gate, and DESDI hold is chockers and BUBIN is ok, why not give us 10 or 15 through DESDI and ask for 30 through BUBIN. Still getting the same spacing in the end but giving some relief to the guy that needs it.
Anyway don't take my recent silence on here as lack of support for actually finding agreement on how to achieve improved relations and operations between the 2 units. It is just that I am tired of beating my head against a wall, and think the only thing that will really change things will be when the endless inneffectual meetings end, and people get together and actually sort this dangerous mess out.
Enjoy the discussion.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 21st Apr 2008 at 17:52.
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after all a guy on the ground is not going to hit anyone or declare a fuel emergency
At least almost, during last Hajj season we had a few aircrafts that needed to taxi back to the apron for refueling because ACC or Dubai would not give us a departure release.
Am also aware of an IL76 out of Fujairah last year that was sitting at the loop for about 30 minutes before he got a release, and as soon as he was airborne he said he needed to turn direct ALN or he would decleare a fuel emergency (destination was Sudan I believe).
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I am not having a go at you, I am sure that the refusal of releases are justified, if not there would be no need for me to call for a release in the first place, would there?
I would however appreciate it that if you see you are going to be too busy for the next hour (57 minutes is the longest I have waited for a release), then why not pick up the phone, call us and say 'block starst for Darax cancelled'?
Or give a 'released at time XX' or even 'call you back in 5 minutes' (some of you do, most don't), so that I have something to work with, and can keep the pilot updated.
Just getting a 'call you back shortly' and then being yelled at when I call back 20 minuters later asking if you have forgotten is just not cricket.
But most of the time you guys (seems to be from my side at least) doing a good job, so again, not having a go at you
I would however appreciate it that if you see you are going to be too busy for the next hour (57 minutes is the longest I have waited for a release), then why not pick up the phone, call us and say 'block starst for Darax cancelled'?
Or give a 'released at time XX' or even 'call you back in 5 minutes' (some of you do, most don't), so that I have something to work with, and can keep the pilot updated.
Just getting a 'call you back shortly' and then being yelled at when I call back 20 minuters later asking if you have forgotten is just not cricket.
But most of the time you guys (seems to be from my side at least) doing a good job, so again, not having a go at you
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FKD...was with you up to the until. The MAJOR problem we all face is the 15/20 caused by the Tower Works, the Runway Works, EK Scheduling, and the lack of a Flow Management System. We can't even get a Holding Fuel NOTAM issued.
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Ok, add this to after my until:
"the Tower Works, the Runway Works, EK Scheduling, and the lack of a Flow Management System."
I'll let publishing the notam slide tho
Back ta bed, sorry!
"the Tower Works, the Runway Works, EK Scheduling, and the lack of a Flow Management System."
I'll let publishing the notam slide tho
Back ta bed, sorry!