EK in Canada
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Be Carefull!
Be very careful with moving to Emirates now.
Here are some thoughts:
As an FO, you have very littles disposable income. Many subsidise to hopefully get a quick command.
Inflation is rampant in Dubai and about to get a lot worse .
If you think ERP will make much difference, think again. In fact the high canadian dollar has set the scene for much less canadian ERP in the future once the USD recovers.
I have heard some horror stories on accommodation. One FO moved into a dump with no aircon in peak summer. He approached everyone to be moved. Eventually after formally resigning, they relented and moved him. But who wants to have to do that having packed up life elsewhere - they may accept your resignation!
Emirates is at the peak of the airline cycle. There will be a downturn sooner or later.
Dubai's economy is considered by some to be unstable for a number of reasons and requires some correction. Speculation of course.
Emirates offload a lot of work into your free time. There is always something they want you to do. Simply living in Dubai requires much rushing around on days off in dangerous traffic
Driving, Heat no Rights etc are considerations that must be borne in mind.
I have been in UAE for many years. Most were great but EK and Dubai are not what they used to be and its not for the better.
Here are some thoughts:
As an FO, you have very littles disposable income. Many subsidise to hopefully get a quick command.
Inflation is rampant in Dubai and about to get a lot worse .
If you think ERP will make much difference, think again. In fact the high canadian dollar has set the scene for much less canadian ERP in the future once the USD recovers.
I have heard some horror stories on accommodation. One FO moved into a dump with no aircon in peak summer. He approached everyone to be moved. Eventually after formally resigning, they relented and moved him. But who wants to have to do that having packed up life elsewhere - they may accept your resignation!
Emirates is at the peak of the airline cycle. There will be a downturn sooner or later.
Dubai's economy is considered by some to be unstable for a number of reasons and requires some correction. Speculation of course.
Emirates offload a lot of work into your free time. There is always something they want you to do. Simply living in Dubai requires much rushing around on days off in dangerous traffic
Driving, Heat no Rights etc are considerations that must be borne in mind.
I have been in UAE for many years. Most were great but EK and Dubai are not what they used to be and its not for the better.
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currency exiles
Just got my credit card statement and and for the first time a Canadian dollar charge has come through at over 4 dirhams to the dollar.
Admittedly this is after the bank added their 1.5% foreign exchange fee but it is eye-popping never-the-less. Any Canuck in Dubai is making 40% less than he was two years ago. Don't even think about looking any farther back in time than that or your reputation as the stong silent type will suffer as you roam about your luxury villa weeping.
Any Canadian here who has mortgage or family commitments at home that involve routine transfer of funds is in serious trouble, any Canadian here who sold their Canadian home in a fit of enthusiam before coming to Dubai is essentially priced out of returning to a home there - particularily if they wish to settle in BC or (God's-very-own-corner-of-the-planet) Alberta.
Admittedly this is after the bank added their 1.5% foreign exchange fee but it is eye-popping never-the-less. Any Canuck in Dubai is making 40% less than he was two years ago. Don't even think about looking any farther back in time than that or your reputation as the stong silent type will suffer as you roam about your luxury villa weeping.
Any Canadian here who has mortgage or family commitments at home that involve routine transfer of funds is in serious trouble, any Canadian here who sold their Canadian home in a fit of enthusiam before coming to Dubai is essentially priced out of returning to a home there - particularily if they wish to settle in BC or (God's-very-own-corner-of-the-planet) Alberta.
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Hey Discon,
Please stop moaning for moanings sake!
You mention an F/O has no disposible income. I think you should look up the definition of 'disposible income':
In my case (a year 4 F/O on the 'bus) an average month will see me GROSS around 27000 dhs, this is based on around 75 hours flying and max ERP against the GBP. Take away 1000dhs for education, 1100 dhs for the car loan, 1500 dhs for the povident fund and lets be generous and say another 1000 dhs for family medical and EPC etc....
This leaves a NET of around 22,000 dhs (or $6000 usd). Assuming you are in company accomodation, the fact you get picked up for work, and you don't have to send money home (your choice), lets say you spend 8000 per month at Spinneys on food for the family (which is more than enough), 2000 per month on the kids school trips etc, and insurance/gas for the motor, this leaves you with 12,000 dhs ($3200 usd) ALL of this is 'disposible income'....
How YOU choose to spend it is up to you. You can afford to buy yourself an Aston, or blow it all on curry, (hell you could even buy yourself some flying lessons).....But for FCUK's sake will you please stop bleating on about F/O's having no money, its waring thin!!
For the record My October pay cheque was circa 37,000 dhs and my June one was 42,000 ($11500 usd) albeit with a large proportion of over tme! Me thinks not many F/O's are on that kind of whack.
Also
You say we are at a peak of the airline cycle (not even close my friend), and that the inevitable downturn will hurt EK... It may be worth casting your mind back to post 9/11 which saw the largest ever downturn in aviation history, EK was just about the only airline expanding/recruiting and happened to place the worlds largest ever single order for airliners ($19 Billion, as you seem to have forgotten!).
Hope this helps cast some light/FACTS on the subject for you Canadian chaps as these 2 ingredients seem to be few and far between on this forum... (Mind you dispite my FACTual post, standby for the inevitable barage of jibberish). All that said, all is not a bed of roses here in the pit, and there are issues that you will have to confront when you come over, however these are not insurmountable, and just require a positive attitude!
Good luck
Please stop moaning for moanings sake!
You mention an F/O has no disposible income. I think you should look up the definition of 'disposible income':
In my case (a year 4 F/O on the 'bus) an average month will see me GROSS around 27000 dhs, this is based on around 75 hours flying and max ERP against the GBP. Take away 1000dhs for education, 1100 dhs for the car loan, 1500 dhs for the povident fund and lets be generous and say another 1000 dhs for family medical and EPC etc....
This leaves a NET of around 22,000 dhs (or $6000 usd). Assuming you are in company accomodation, the fact you get picked up for work, and you don't have to send money home (your choice), lets say you spend 8000 per month at Spinneys on food for the family (which is more than enough), 2000 per month on the kids school trips etc, and insurance/gas for the motor, this leaves you with 12,000 dhs ($3200 usd) ALL of this is 'disposible income'....
How YOU choose to spend it is up to you. You can afford to buy yourself an Aston, or blow it all on curry, (hell you could even buy yourself some flying lessons).....But for FCUK's sake will you please stop bleating on about F/O's having no money, its waring thin!!
For the record My October pay cheque was circa 37,000 dhs and my June one was 42,000 ($11500 usd) albeit with a large proportion of over tme! Me thinks not many F/O's are on that kind of whack.
Also
You say we are at a peak of the airline cycle (not even close my friend), and that the inevitable downturn will hurt EK... It may be worth casting your mind back to post 9/11 which saw the largest ever downturn in aviation history, EK was just about the only airline expanding/recruiting and happened to place the worlds largest ever single order for airliners ($19 Billion, as you seem to have forgotten!).
Hope this helps cast some light/FACTS on the subject for you Canadian chaps as these 2 ingredients seem to be few and far between on this forum... (Mind you dispite my FACTual post, standby for the inevitable barage of jibberish). All that said, all is not a bed of roses here in the pit, and there are issues that you will have to confront when you come over, however these are not insurmountable, and just require a positive attitude!
Good luck
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Oblaaspoop...
Well, you just seem abit ornery and wanna invite contention now dontcha?
For anyone who's readin' this, 27,000 AED/month is about right. I just talked to a 4 year Canuck FO who has a coupla kids in school here in DXB:
Basic: 23465
Telly allowance 100
ERP 1759
Flying pay (76 hrs) 2660 (35.0 AED/hr)
Productivity pay, 8 hrs o'time 2600 (325.0 AED/hr)
Total Gross Pay 30584 AED = $7842 CAD
Deduct fo car loan (EK) 1145
EPC 100
Provident fund 1173
Phone bill 110
Medical 226
School fees (2 kids) 3000
sundry medical charge 100
After EK Deductions 24730 AED = $6341 CAD
Car loan from bank 1822 (this supplements the EK loan)
Mortgage on property @home 4290 AED = $1100 CAD
Net income for this family: 18618 AED = $4774 CAD
Groceries 5000 AED
Car insurance 450 AED (car is now nearly 4 yrs old)
Petrol 400 AED
ALT budget, cause EK don't
fly them all the way home 475 AED
Car rental budget for leave 230 AED
Annual leave expense 2000 AED
Net disposable income 10063 AED = $2580 CAD
Now, this guy is saving for university for his kids, there are sundry expenses for stuff like a meal out at a restaurant once per week, presents, school trips, movies, CDs, musical supplies and instruments, school supplies, clothing for the family, domestic help (housekeeper 2 days per week, not a live-in) and he sends a bit home to his folks every month as they are elderly.
It ain't all that much when you look at it closely - if you spend more than your allowances on the road, as I frequently do, then you're dippin' in to family finances and that detracts... I didn't ask him if he had Satellite TV, or mobile phones for the family (I can see that addin' up to about 400 AED monthly without even tryin'). Come ta think of it, he didn't mention his internet connection costs or computer costs - all self financed here, no help from the mother ship...
Now, fellow Canucks who might be readin' this... take some of this into consideration. I could dig for more I guess but I hope you get the picture. It ain't all roses and sunshine over here, and if you have expensive hobbies (motorcycles, fast cars and stuff like me...) well, you're just about **** out of luck.
Oldblaastapoop is more 'n a bit optimistic with the numbers he's shootin' around. I don't know where the hell 42000 AED comes from - that's a **** load a overtime as pointed out by previous contributor, impossible in fact though like many a bloke from 'ol blighty he has a good imagination I guess. I like Brits, and I like the Monarch, Queen in Right of Canada an all that but don't ferget: If the Queen had balls, she'd be KING!
Happy contrails camerados
k-o-t-s
Well, you just seem abit ornery and wanna invite contention now dontcha?
For anyone who's readin' this, 27,000 AED/month is about right. I just talked to a 4 year Canuck FO who has a coupla kids in school here in DXB:
Basic: 23465
Telly allowance 100
ERP 1759
Flying pay (76 hrs) 2660 (35.0 AED/hr)
Productivity pay, 8 hrs o'time 2600 (325.0 AED/hr)
Total Gross Pay 30584 AED = $7842 CAD
Deduct fo car loan (EK) 1145
EPC 100
Provident fund 1173
Phone bill 110
Medical 226
School fees (2 kids) 3000
sundry medical charge 100
After EK Deductions 24730 AED = $6341 CAD
Car loan from bank 1822 (this supplements the EK loan)
Mortgage on property @home 4290 AED = $1100 CAD
Net income for this family: 18618 AED = $4774 CAD
Groceries 5000 AED
Car insurance 450 AED (car is now nearly 4 yrs old)
Petrol 400 AED
ALT budget, cause EK don't
fly them all the way home 475 AED
Car rental budget for leave 230 AED
Annual leave expense 2000 AED
Net disposable income 10063 AED = $2580 CAD
Now, this guy is saving for university for his kids, there are sundry expenses for stuff like a meal out at a restaurant once per week, presents, school trips, movies, CDs, musical supplies and instruments, school supplies, clothing for the family, domestic help (housekeeper 2 days per week, not a live-in) and he sends a bit home to his folks every month as they are elderly.
It ain't all that much when you look at it closely - if you spend more than your allowances on the road, as I frequently do, then you're dippin' in to family finances and that detracts... I didn't ask him if he had Satellite TV, or mobile phones for the family (I can see that addin' up to about 400 AED monthly without even tryin'). Come ta think of it, he didn't mention his internet connection costs or computer costs - all self financed here, no help from the mother ship...
Now, fellow Canucks who might be readin' this... take some of this into consideration. I could dig for more I guess but I hope you get the picture. It ain't all roses and sunshine over here, and if you have expensive hobbies (motorcycles, fast cars and stuff like me...) well, you're just about **** out of luck.
Oldblaastapoop is more 'n a bit optimistic with the numbers he's shootin' around. I don't know where the hell 42000 AED comes from - that's a **** load a overtime as pointed out by previous contributor, impossible in fact though like many a bloke from 'ol blighty he has a good imagination I guess. I like Brits, and I like the Monarch, Queen in Right of Canada an all that but don't ferget: If the Queen had balls, she'd be KING!
Happy contrails camerados
k-o-t-s
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Pay attenetion young lady! I didn't say NET 42.
I actually did 114hrs (Dead heading and 2 support sims in there)
42000 - 27000 = 15000 less 3 x Day off payments of 650ish = 13,000 in overtime / 325dhs/hr = 40 hours ish.
Much as I'd like to display my actual pay slip to prove you are a numpty, you can save yourself the bother and invest in a calculator.
(By the way, I can feel the next post heading my way saying something along the lines of 'oh boo hoo, he works days off, he's helping the company etc etc
....Bullcrap I'm helping me! If I'm in overtime damned straight I'm gonna capitalise on that, show me someone who doesn't and I'll show you a liar!!)
I actually did 114hrs (Dead heading and 2 support sims in there)
42000 - 27000 = 15000 less 3 x Day off payments of 650ish = 13,000 in overtime / 325dhs/hr = 40 hours ish.
Much as I'd like to display my actual pay slip to prove you are a numpty, you can save yourself the bother and invest in a calculator.
(By the way, I can feel the next post heading my way saying something along the lines of 'oh boo hoo, he works days off, he's helping the company etc etc
....Bullcrap I'm helping me! If I'm in overtime damned straight I'm gonna capitalise on that, show me someone who doesn't and I'll show you a liar!!)
Oblaaspop. For the record, I don't work on days off. I guess if more people didn't you wouldn't be a four year FO. But that is away from the subject of this thread. Why don't you take a quick look at HR direct, and work out your average monthly earnings and post that. Surely that would be more useful to a new joiner than the months when you prostitute yourself to the company for extra crumbs.
Don
Don
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Don,
The whole point of my post was to make the point that we as F/O's are most certainly NOT on the 'Breadline' as was previously mentioned...Indeed, 3 years ago, 27k was about what a year 1 skipper was on! I am just fed up with the negative 'spin' mate!
Yes, inflation has gone crazy, yes, the exchange rate is a killer, but if i was being totally honest, this is the first time in the last 16 years of my career that I've actually had a bit of cash left in my pocket at the end of the month, and be able to have a good lifestyle (ie out to eat at least twice a week, as opposed to twice a year in the UK!).
And mate, to say that guys (like me) who work the odd day off are the cause behind me being a 4 year F/O is absolute BS and you know it! We all know that the FATALLY floored DEC policy AND the 18 month A380 delay are the main cause.....Indeed, had I have joined on the 777, I would have had the LHS for months already (hmmmm, I wonder if any 777 F/O's work days off if in overtime?)
All that said, I will take your advice, and look at the last 12 months TAKE HOME and I will post the average out of interest. May I suggest a few other F/O's do the same, maybe from the 777 as well and over years 1,2,3. Only then will we have a true indication of what is taken home each month.
The whole point of my post was to make the point that we as F/O's are most certainly NOT on the 'Breadline' as was previously mentioned...Indeed, 3 years ago, 27k was about what a year 1 skipper was on! I am just fed up with the negative 'spin' mate!
Yes, inflation has gone crazy, yes, the exchange rate is a killer, but if i was being totally honest, this is the first time in the last 16 years of my career that I've actually had a bit of cash left in my pocket at the end of the month, and be able to have a good lifestyle (ie out to eat at least twice a week, as opposed to twice a year in the UK!).
And mate, to say that guys (like me) who work the odd day off are the cause behind me being a 4 year F/O is absolute BS and you know it! We all know that the FATALLY floored DEC policy AND the 18 month A380 delay are the main cause.....Indeed, had I have joined on the 777, I would have had the LHS for months already (hmmmm, I wonder if any 777 F/O's work days off if in overtime?)
All that said, I will take your advice, and look at the last 12 months TAKE HOME and I will post the average out of interest. May I suggest a few other F/O's do the same, maybe from the 777 as well and over years 1,2,3. Only then will we have a true indication of what is taken home each month.
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OK, here goes:
Firstly I must hold my hands up and admit I was wrong with my original figures, I was actually being to conservative...I earned more than I said
This is the break down of my NET income (ie. the TOP line of HR direct yearly view) from NOV 06 thru OCT 07.
This includes the 4.5 week profit share (well why not? its money payed to me, for me to spend!), but does not include deductions for concessionary travel..ie I have re-credited that back to the NET. (The reason being, if my parents or outlaws want to come over to see us, they pay us back, and if we use it to travel, that comes under personal use of disposable income).
Fair enough?
Over last 12 months a NET total of 292,478dhs which is 24,373pcm
Interestingly though, if you look at the figures from July to Oct (ie since the intro of the flying pay), that figure jumps up to [B]28,416dhs pcm
Now, these are hardly breadline figures are they?
Come on other F/O's your turn, calculate it the same way as me for continuaty...this should be interesting
Firstly I must hold my hands up and admit I was wrong with my original figures, I was actually being to conservative...I earned more than I said
This is the break down of my NET income (ie. the TOP line of HR direct yearly view) from NOV 06 thru OCT 07.
This includes the 4.5 week profit share (well why not? its money payed to me, for me to spend!), but does not include deductions for concessionary travel..ie I have re-credited that back to the NET. (The reason being, if my parents or outlaws want to come over to see us, they pay us back, and if we use it to travel, that comes under personal use of disposable income).
Fair enough?
Over last 12 months a NET total of 292,478dhs which is 24,373pcm
Interestingly though, if you look at the figures from July to Oct (ie since the intro of the flying pay), that figure jumps up to [B]28,416dhs pcm
Now, these are hardly breadline figures are they?
Come on other F/O's your turn, calculate it the same way as me for continuaty...this should be interesting
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It seems that for every individual like KINGOFTHESLIPSTREM, their are many happy and smiling faces around working for EK. It depends where you come from - at present the Aussies and Europeans are taking strain with the exchange rate. Some others are really smiling e.g. Africans and Yankees. I presume that Canadians are also worse off due to the strengthening of the Can dollar to the US dollar.
Go and have a look and listen to the roadshow - I have found it truthful with good information about life in the UAE.
I enjoy the life here, and I will stay - for a while in any case!
Go and have a look and listen to the roadshow - I have found it truthful with good information about life in the UAE.
I enjoy the life here, and I will stay - for a while in any case!
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Question.
I see education being listed above as a monthly expense, but @ the EK roadshow in HKG, they provided information that they actually pay you
"Primary school : AED32,000 p.a. (effective 1st September 2007)
Emirates pays 100% of the first AED16,000 and 90% of the balance, up to a limit of AED32,000 per academic year
Secondary school : AED50,000 p.a. (effective 1st September 2007)
Emirates pays 100% of the first AED25,000 and 90% of the balance, up to a limit of AED50,000 per academic year "
Whats the deal? Does that not cover the cost?
I see education being listed above as a monthly expense, but @ the EK roadshow in HKG, they provided information that they actually pay you
"Primary school : AED32,000 p.a. (effective 1st September 2007)
Emirates pays 100% of the first AED16,000 and 90% of the balance, up to a limit of AED32,000 per academic year
Secondary school : AED50,000 p.a. (effective 1st September 2007)
Emirates pays 100% of the first AED25,000 and 90% of the balance, up to a limit of AED50,000 per academic year "
Whats the deal? Does that not cover the cost?
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no, it doesn't cover the cost
Your child's tuition will be stated as, say, 48,000 per year.
This is not enough for the people owning the school, so they try to increase the tuition. The government will not permit them to increase the fees. What to do?
The school creates arbitrary and nebulous charges (at one popular school they are called "assessment fees") of up to 8000 dirhams which you must pay if your child wishes to attend.
Will emirates re-imburse you for this amount? No. They will put on a sorrowful expression and tell you "actually we can only pay CORE tuition fees"
I don't know what that means exactly, but I know it costs a lot of us 8000 dirhams.....per child....per year
Do the math.
This is not enough for the people owning the school, so they try to increase the tuition. The government will not permit them to increase the fees. What to do?
The school creates arbitrary and nebulous charges (at one popular school they are called "assessment fees") of up to 8000 dirhams which you must pay if your child wishes to attend.
Will emirates re-imburse you for this amount? No. They will put on a sorrowful expression and tell you "actually we can only pay CORE tuition fees"
I don't know what that means exactly, but I know it costs a lot of us 8000 dirhams.....per child....per year
Do the math.
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Please name a school other than ASD that has seat fees that are not payed by EK.
I think the max for secondary is more than 50K and has been for awhile.
Not sure but the web site might have the right numbers
I think the max for secondary is more than 50K and has been for awhile.
Not sure but the web site might have the right numbers
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It seems that for every individual like KINGOFTHESLIPSTREM, their are many happy and smiling faces around working for EK. It depends where you come from - at present the Aussies and Europeans are taking strain with the exchange rate. Some others are really smiling e.g. Africans and Yankees. I presume that Canadians are also worse off due to the strengthening of the Can dollar to the US dollar.
Go and have a look and listen to the roadshow - I have found it truthful with good information about life in the UAE.
I enjoy the life here, and I will stay - for a while in any case!
Go and have a look and listen to the roadshow - I have found it truthful with good information about life in the UAE.
I enjoy the life here, and I will stay - for a while in any case!
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nolimitholdem
Whilst we all appreciate there are various 'issues' with living in Dubai, including idiots on the road, your last paragraph should be either removed or edited.
Using the actual name of one of our late colleagues, to justfy your own opinion of Dubai, shows a basic lack of respect to both him and his family. Furthermore, unless you have 100% certainty as to the causes of the late Cabin Crew members death, may I suggest you refrain from using 'her fall' as an example too.
There are better and less personal ways to emphasize the downsides of Dubai.
BYMONEK
Whilst we all appreciate there are various 'issues' with living in Dubai, including idiots on the road, your last paragraph should be either removed or edited.
Using the actual name of one of our late colleagues, to justfy your own opinion of Dubai, shows a basic lack of respect to both him and his family. Furthermore, unless you have 100% certainty as to the causes of the late Cabin Crew members death, may I suggest you refrain from using 'her fall' as an example too.
There are better and less personal ways to emphasize the downsides of Dubai.
BYMONEK
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I respectfully disagree. The named individual was a person - not a "situation" or "example" to be cited anonymously. The very point I am trying to make is glossing over the downsides of Dubai life by attempting to depersonalize them is WRONG. To camouflage such facts in order to foster recruiting for a commercial enterprise goes beyond that - to reprehensible.
To his family and friends, this man was not a traffic statistic, he was a father and husband and friend. People considering joining EK have the right to know this sort of thing, and have it be REAL as the possibility that it is. For every one of these accidents (this is not the first!), how many close calls have YOU experienced? How many more to come?
I am familiar with the pain the surviving family is experiencing. Mentioning his name is not something that will "offend" them or cause them more pain...trust me, they maxed out on agony long ago. It is the other survivors who feel uncomfortable because it reminds them too strongly that there but for the grace of God...
If someone with mod permissions wishes to edit my post to remove the name, fine. But realize you are doing it because it offends you, not the family, and please ask yourself why.
To his family and friends, this man was not a traffic statistic, he was a father and husband and friend. People considering joining EK have the right to know this sort of thing, and have it be REAL as the possibility that it is. For every one of these accidents (this is not the first!), how many close calls have YOU experienced? How many more to come?
I am familiar with the pain the surviving family is experiencing. Mentioning his name is not something that will "offend" them or cause them more pain...trust me, they maxed out on agony long ago. It is the other survivors who feel uncomfortable because it reminds them too strongly that there but for the grace of God...
If someone with mod permissions wishes to edit my post to remove the name, fine. But realize you are doing it because it offends you, not the family, and please ask yourself why.
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Answer this then, why do you presume the cabin crew member did anything other than 'fall' in a tragic accident? It was that unfounded allegation in particular that could have serious implications for all those that were at the crew party in that room at the time!
Engage brain before typing my friend....you could unwittingly find yourself in the centre of something you shouldn't be!
Engage brain before typing my friend....you could unwittingly find yourself in the centre of something you shouldn't be!
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I don't presume anything. Hence my use of quotation marks around the word "fall". And my lack of presumption as to the circumstances surrounding THAT situation, has to do with two things: complete lack of transparency in all news issues in Dubai, and also the number of lonely cabin crew who have confided of spending many an hour staring out of their accommodation window to the point they have thought about "falling" off their own balcony. Don't bother waiting for me to apologize for being skeptical about the "facts" as presented in the media here.
NEVER did I allege that other cabin crew present, had anything to do with that poor girls falling. That was YOUR inference, and implication. Nice work.
Anyway, back to the thread. All you Canadians, come on over. Everything is just like the promo DVD.
NEVER did I allege that other cabin crew present, had anything to do with that poor girls falling. That was YOUR inference, and implication. Nice work.
Anyway, back to the thread. All you Canadians, come on over. Everything is just like the promo DVD.
