Life after EK
Join Date: Jun 2002
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typhoon,
"There is a new group of DECs on the 310. I don't think that is news though. It would be news if there were some on the 330 or 777."
It may be old news but it is still bad news, specially for the qualified F/O's on the 310. Your post reads like the A310 F/O's are somehow different and not worth the same career prospects all other F/O's in EK enjoy. While I do not expect that B777 or A330 F/O's will shed a tear for their peers on the old bus, at least don't make it sound as if it was OK to bring in DEC's on the A310.
"There is a new group of DECs on the 310. I don't think that is news though. It would be news if there were some on the 330 or 777."
It may be old news but it is still bad news, specially for the qualified F/O's on the 310. Your post reads like the A310 F/O's are somehow different and not worth the same career prospects all other F/O's in EK enjoy. While I do not expect that B777 or A330 F/O's will shed a tear for their peers on the old bus, at least don't make it sound as if it was OK to bring in DEC's on the A310.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Nixisfix,
Don't be so disheartened, I am with you brother and most of the FOs at EK are too. Typhoon is obviously either a DEC or an accelerated captain that did not have to labour under the current rules at EK to feel sorry for us and what we have to go through. Seeing Decs and others jump ahead of most of the FO is bad enough but the attitude they convey goes against the profession that we all have come to expect. Keep the faith, we will get ours, someday.
Don't be so disheartened, I am with you brother and most of the FOs at EK are too. Typhoon is obviously either a DEC or an accelerated captain that did not have to labour under the current rules at EK to feel sorry for us and what we have to go through. Seeing Decs and others jump ahead of most of the FO is bad enough but the attitude they convey goes against the profession that we all have come to expect. Keep the faith, we will get ours, someday.
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pilots leaving ek
I just wonder, all this pilots leaving EK (I assume the majority are f/o who are very upset about the dec program) are they going to a company as f/o or dec?
Join Date: May 2004
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Well said Alpha. I am still humoured by the rumour mill. The people that are leaving (20 this week, if anyone can name every one who is I would be glad to see the list) good luck to you all. I have to agree with Alpha, are you going to another job as an F/O to sit at the bottom of a list that will move as slowly as here.
At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.
Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.
As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.
If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.
As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.
So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.
At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.
Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.
As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.
If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.
As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.
So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.
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Way to go Uplink.
This is among the best things I ever read on PPRUNE.
It is normal that the "negative" persons tend to dominate a forum
since the "positive" persons really don´t bother to write.
I am also really curious where the resigning people go.
Will they take a job as DEC somewhere?
Believe me. Thes grass is ALWAYS greener....
I say Goodmorning Asia, Godnight Europe
Happy Landings to you all
This is among the best things I ever read on PPRUNE.
It is normal that the "negative" persons tend to dominate a forum
since the "positive" persons really don´t bother to write.
I am also really curious where the resigning people go.
Will they take a job as DEC somewhere?
Believe me. Thes grass is ALWAYS greener....
I say Goodmorning Asia, Godnight Europe
Happy Landings to you all
Join Date: Apr 2005
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@Uplink
There's the package as a whole to consider
1. In EK you have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on off- days.
2. If you are flying on duty in EK and your girlfriend/wife has joined you on the trip you are not allowed to walk back to the cabin and see her (company policy).
3. Generally speaking, living in Dubai means living under an arbitrary rule.
I think there's a chance that somewhere else there are better 'packages'.
More to come...
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Uplink
Just because you are probably a captain and a Canadian to boot don't take it out on us. It seems you have hit the lottery by coming to EK but most of the FOs here have common sense and don't like being treated the way mangement treats us. We also realize that there is a whole other world out there and the conditions are improving all over the place.
You are right that there is not the resignations taking place that some say there are but they are coming. HR believes there will be about 40 more before the summer is up. I know we all can be replaced just like the Aussies were and probably by the 3rd world or some more Canadians that will come and love the place, for about 6 months until reality sets in.
Just because you are probably a captain and a Canadian to boot don't take it out on us. It seems you have hit the lottery by coming to EK but most of the FOs here have common sense and don't like being treated the way mangement treats us. We also realize that there is a whole other world out there and the conditions are improving all over the place.
You are right that there is not the resignations taking place that some say there are but they are coming. HR believes there will be about 40 more before the summer is up. I know we all can be replaced just like the Aussies were and probably by the 3rd world or some more Canadians that will come and love the place, for about 6 months until reality sets in.
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Brix, good points, especially the first. For those who are quacking about how great EK is, please let us know the other airlines throughout the world where it is a requirement to formally apply to leave your base on days off. And approval is not a formality. There are already several who have been denied permission as scheduling have told management they would like to be able to call them on their days off to fly, due crew shortages.
Uplink, why is it different here? Because people have uprooted their families and moved to an unfamiliar country and are essentially starting life again. Might be ok if you are from a crap place, but some people have left nice countries to do this. The least they can expect is that their contract is not altered continually. I'm not talking about promises in an interview, but the contract they have on joining. Part of that contract is the requirements for command. Not sure how long you have been here, but it used to be 4,500 hrs and 4 successful PPC's. That part of the FOM formed part of our contract, and like so much else, was changed on a whim, with no consultation. That is why these F/O's are unhappy.
And BTW, I sit in the left seat, and have been discovering for close on 7 years now.
Uplink, why is it different here? Because people have uprooted their families and moved to an unfamiliar country and are essentially starting life again. Might be ok if you are from a crap place, but some people have left nice countries to do this. The least they can expect is that their contract is not altered continually. I'm not talking about promises in an interview, but the contract they have on joining. Part of that contract is the requirements for command. Not sure how long you have been here, but it used to be 4,500 hrs and 4 successful PPC's. That part of the FOM formed part of our contract, and like so much else, was changed on a whim, with no consultation. That is why these F/O's are unhappy.
And BTW, I sit in the left seat, and have been discovering for close on 7 years now.
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Brix
Come on mate, don't tell me you’re not going to see the Mrs if she's in the back, have some balls man.
You the same guy filing ASR's because you can't contact Mumbai on HF ?
On days off, just drop an email to Doris in the office, or just clear off and switch off the mobile.
If they call you for tea and biscuits, The 5 day camping trip in the Haja Mountains was most invigorating! I’m now relaxed chilled and ready for work.
Come on mate, don't tell me you’re not going to see the Mrs if she's in the back, have some balls man.
You the same guy filing ASR's because you can't contact Mumbai on HF ?
On days off, just drop an email to Doris in the office, or just clear off and switch off the mobile.
If they call you for tea and biscuits, The 5 day camping trip in the Haja Mountains was most invigorating! I’m now relaxed chilled and ready for work.
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Working for a well-known "US" carrier, I just heard this past week that one of our captains left for a DEC job at EK. I was surprised to hear EK is hiring DECs again.
Join Date: May 2004
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I suppose I better answer the slagging off I am getting.
Trashed:
All major airlines do transition upgrades so should EK.......
EK did transition upgrades, but hardly cost effective when you are running two large fleets. The pass rate became a problem especially for guys coming from 146 and B737 etc. Not to say that they were not good, just that they had very little exposure to major intl travel and found the decision making on a large jet a little different to what they had been flying, hence the turn to upgrades on the same fleet. More comfortable for the individual. Cant say I am entirely happy with this but economically it does make sense. People find it hard enough doing an upgrade. No need to complicate it further with a type change as well. It is my guess you are an airbus pilot and so are pretty upset that your upgrade is not forthcoming. I feel for you. But a couple of years ago the airbus guys leap frogged the Boeing guys. I know of several cases of Airbus guys getting upgrades up to a year before the Boeing guys, with the Boeing guys being higher on the seniorority. Guess what, in 2007 this will happen again when the A380 arrives. It is market forces. The DEC's are being used for the A310's that are coming. I am sure if you volunteer they will let you go on it. Or maybe you are not that desperate.
Brix:
you have answered your own question. If that is the thing that gripes you the most;-
1. In EK you have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on off- days.
2. If you are flying on duty in EK and your girlfriend/wife has joined you on the trip you are not allowed to walk back to the cabin and see her (company policy).
3. Generally speaking, living in Dubai means living under an arbitrary rule.
Then go and find an airline where you can do all of the above. I think you will find that with the day off issue there are many guys who commute and have not made it back in time for their work pattern. It happened too many times and the rest of us have to suffer by covering their work. Remember before you state that we should have overseas basings..... We dont and never IMHO will. The commuters took the job knowing this. If they cant take it they have to make alternative arrangements. ie CX and SQ. But likewise you will find there are limitations there.
LHR:
Whats wrong with Canadians and are they that bad that you can group them together as a race and slander their character. Yes I am a Capt but I still had to do my time as an F/O. My thoughts were and I say say again. There are 1200 pilots here and the people that moan are generally a very small minority. Conditions are improving out there and yes EK may not get the people they want. Yes there may be resignations. I doubt 200 but maybe the figure you state, again a small enough proportion that could probably be classed as natural wastage. Those jobs you speak of out there, maybe those are the ones that people like you ought to leave for. No offence. The rest of us still have to work and live here. It may not be ideal, but I will not spend the rest of my time here bitching and moaning like a bunch of old women. We do not have a union and therefore have no sway. The unions could keep our contracts in check but that is about it. As to pay rises, see what is happening in Europe. The mangement only pay you what they want. It is a done deal going in to a management pay meeting. Believe me I have done it many times.
Believe:
I am close by the length of time you have been here. I also do not like having my contract continually changed. The problem is, there is no way here to change that. Remember what happened when a contingency of gentlemen tried to start a union. I seem to remember the leader received a small call from the big leader. There is no answer. It is like being institutionalised. You either accept it and get on with life or not. (easy time v hard time). The only choice we have to not accept it, is to leave. That is the option. and the only option. If you can find a better deal and package I am all ears.
Gulfa:
Last spoke to Mumbai going west 2 1/2 years ago.
You all have a choice, stay or leave. If you stay then do easy time and stop moaning. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Except to piss your colleagues off. Make your voice heard in a diplomatic way. Look at the RSV dutied they have just changed. Again I didnt vote for that to be implemented. I voted against it. It has been changed and I cant do anything about it. But I am not going to loose sleep over it. If I wake up one morning and the company has completely pissed me off, I will resign. I did it before. Maybe I am just a little more tolerant in my advanced years
Trashed:
All major airlines do transition upgrades so should EK.......
EK did transition upgrades, but hardly cost effective when you are running two large fleets. The pass rate became a problem especially for guys coming from 146 and B737 etc. Not to say that they were not good, just that they had very little exposure to major intl travel and found the decision making on a large jet a little different to what they had been flying, hence the turn to upgrades on the same fleet. More comfortable for the individual. Cant say I am entirely happy with this but economically it does make sense. People find it hard enough doing an upgrade. No need to complicate it further with a type change as well. It is my guess you are an airbus pilot and so are pretty upset that your upgrade is not forthcoming. I feel for you. But a couple of years ago the airbus guys leap frogged the Boeing guys. I know of several cases of Airbus guys getting upgrades up to a year before the Boeing guys, with the Boeing guys being higher on the seniorority. Guess what, in 2007 this will happen again when the A380 arrives. It is market forces. The DEC's are being used for the A310's that are coming. I am sure if you volunteer they will let you go on it. Or maybe you are not that desperate.
Brix:
you have answered your own question. If that is the thing that gripes you the most;-
1. In EK you have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on off- days.
2. If you are flying on duty in EK and your girlfriend/wife has joined you on the trip you are not allowed to walk back to the cabin and see her (company policy).
3. Generally speaking, living in Dubai means living under an arbitrary rule.
Then go and find an airline where you can do all of the above. I think you will find that with the day off issue there are many guys who commute and have not made it back in time for their work pattern. It happened too many times and the rest of us have to suffer by covering their work. Remember before you state that we should have overseas basings..... We dont and never IMHO will. The commuters took the job knowing this. If they cant take it they have to make alternative arrangements. ie CX and SQ. But likewise you will find there are limitations there.
LHR:
Whats wrong with Canadians and are they that bad that you can group them together as a race and slander their character. Yes I am a Capt but I still had to do my time as an F/O. My thoughts were and I say say again. There are 1200 pilots here and the people that moan are generally a very small minority. Conditions are improving out there and yes EK may not get the people they want. Yes there may be resignations. I doubt 200 but maybe the figure you state, again a small enough proportion that could probably be classed as natural wastage. Those jobs you speak of out there, maybe those are the ones that people like you ought to leave for. No offence. The rest of us still have to work and live here. It may not be ideal, but I will not spend the rest of my time here bitching and moaning like a bunch of old women. We do not have a union and therefore have no sway. The unions could keep our contracts in check but that is about it. As to pay rises, see what is happening in Europe. The mangement only pay you what they want. It is a done deal going in to a management pay meeting. Believe me I have done it many times.
Believe:
I am close by the length of time you have been here. I also do not like having my contract continually changed. The problem is, there is no way here to change that. Remember what happened when a contingency of gentlemen tried to start a union. I seem to remember the leader received a small call from the big leader. There is no answer. It is like being institutionalised. You either accept it and get on with life or not. (easy time v hard time). The only choice we have to not accept it, is to leave. That is the option. and the only option. If you can find a better deal and package I am all ears.
Gulfa:
Last spoke to Mumbai going west 2 1/2 years ago.
You all have a choice, stay or leave. If you stay then do easy time and stop moaning. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Except to piss your colleagues off. Make your voice heard in a diplomatic way. Look at the RSV dutied they have just changed. Again I didnt vote for that to be implemented. I voted against it. It has been changed and I cant do anything about it. But I am not going to loose sleep over it. If I wake up one morning and the company has completely pissed me off, I will resign. I did it before. Maybe I am just a little more tolerant in my advanced years
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UPLINK
Agree with you on every point there.......except one! I voted for the blocks of reserve so sorry........i'm partly to blame!
Brix
If being able to see your girlfriend/wife on the flight is an issue for you then either;
1) You really can't have that much to complain about with E.K.
OR
2) You really are some seriously in love sick puppy dog!
She'll survive without you for 7 hours i'm sure
Agree with you on every point there.......except one! I voted for the blocks of reserve so sorry........i'm partly to blame!
Brix
If being able to see your girlfriend/wife on the flight is an issue for you then either;
1) You really can't have that much to complain about with E.K.
OR
2) You really are some seriously in love sick puppy dog!
She'll survive without you for 7 hours i'm sure
Last edited by BYMONEK; 28th May 2005 at 12:35.
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Gulfa,
yes, and we can all here the w%nkers reply to that. " The Haja mountains are actually out of Dubai and you needed permission to leave. We will now have to doc your pay for AWOL." Maybe next time we take the family for a drive to Red Hill for quad riding we will need permission as well.
Keep Discovering.
yes, and we can all here the w%nkers reply to that. " The Haja mountains are actually out of Dubai and you needed permission to leave. We will now have to doc your pay for AWOL." Maybe next time we take the family for a drive to Red Hill for quad riding we will need permission as well.
Keep Discovering.