Life after EK

[atiuta]

I think the current CFE will put you straight about previous redundancies.

[pintofstella]

same old bull sh@t. At the end of the the day, the job is great once you are on the plane. Its the ancillrary **** that is a joke, ( more than a joke verging on insulting) We know what we are doing and have to do so LEAVE US TO DO IT YOU BUNCH OF MUPPETS UPSTAIRS , back to lower case now because they go to sleep at a normal time every night with no fog or atc sh@t. Had enough know so back to the stella

[sandpit]

atiuta, I as one of those affected (not fired!), so don't need setting straight, but thanks for the thought!

[tournesol]

An F/O with 11yrs service does not automatically become a Cpt.
The company has a system of evaluating FOs who are capable for command. Those who are not, I am afraid will have to remain FO, look for another job or try again at a later stage(hopefully some maturity will have accrued by then).
Moaning and biching will not give them a chance for command.
This just happen to be a reality of life, anywhere in the world. Not just with EK.

[TangoUniform]

Originally Posted by tournesol

An F/O with 11yrs service does not automatically become a Cpt.
The company has a system of evaluating FOs who are capable for command. Those who are not, I am afraid will have to remain FO, look for another job or try again at a later stage(hopefully some maturity will have accrued by then).
Moaning and biching will not give them a chance for command.
This just happen to be a reality of life, anywhere in the world. Not just with EK.

Well, not completely true. If you are talking about upgrades to captain. As you should know, airlines that have ironclad seniority allow upgrades when it is time and a slot available. These airlines say they hire captains from the start and that everyone should be eligible when the time is there. If you can't pass the upgrade, that's a whole 'nother story. If one doesn't have the "maturity" or whatever subjective quality management sees, to not be a captain, should one really be sitting in the right seat too? To have a pseudo psychologist make the decision whether or not someone is capable of command is bizarre. But I guess there are so many different levels of experience amongst the f/o's that there has to be a deal breaker somewhere.
TU

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

A340Jock,

You're treading on thin ice with your caustic remarks.

To my knowledge the EK selection process is geared towards pilots who are up for command. It seems quite reasonable that F/O's should be upset at direct entry captains taking the slots.

Blue Foot

[aimscabinet]

You're treading on thin ice with your caustic remarks.

To my knowledge the EK selection process is geared towards pilots who are up for command. It seems quite reasonable that F/O's should be upset at direct entry captains taking the slots.

The direct entry captain thing is not new in Emirates. It happened in the 727, A310/A300,and now, in the 777 and 330/340.
It is been in the policies since day one, and the company used it as they needed.
I am not sure whether they save any money hiring and training a guy from outside. Ultimately, yes, they use their command experience, but we, the more experienced f/os, have to actually finish their training on the line, as unofficial "training f/os" ... for free :-)))
It is not a fair thing, but there isn't much one can do, other than whine.

[aimscabinet]

The company has a system of evaluating FOs who are capable for command. Those who are not, I am afraid will have to remain FO, look for another job or try again at a later stage(hopefully some maturity will have accrued by then).

In some cases, maturity was not an issue; but plain bias, discrimination, and ignorance, led the check airmen to fail certain candidates.

[theidler]

Originally Posted by aimscabinet

The direct entry captain thing is not new in Emirates. It happened in the 727, A310/A300,and now, in the 777 and 330/340.
It is been in the policies since day one, and the company used it as they needed.
It is not a fair thing, but there isn't much one can do, other than whine.

Other than that in around 1995 the then Head of Flight Operations is on record as saying that he (the HFO) was the last DEC that Emirates would employ.

This with the intention of moving Emirates towards being a world class airline with a career structure and future comparable to say Cathay Pacific rather than the likes of Korean Airlines that Emirates then compared to and is now comparable to again.

[L1011]

Other than that in around 1995 the then Head of Flight Operations is on record as saying that he (the HFO) was the last DEC that Emirates would employ.

If it was GJ you're talking about, the meeting was in November 1993 I think. He was just appointed SGMFO back then. We gave him an ovation for that remark and he stuck to his promise. But the FOM always allowed the company to take DECs if needed. The two Yarpies were the only examples (both as GMs) until the recent flood.
Agree with the CX-KAL comparision. T & C's are rapidly approach KAL levels, but for the commuting rosters. Just hope our safety record stays like CX's but have my doubts these days.

[tournesol]

In some cases, maturity was not an issue; but plain bias, discrimination, and ignorance, led the check airmen to fail certain candidates.[/QUOTE]

I don't know how long you have been in the business.
One thing is for sure, what you have mentioned happens in almost every organization. Failing a check is sometimes based on the examiners poor judgement.
As long as he/she is human, he/she is prone to misjudge at certain times. It is unfortunate but can you think of any other way of checking ?

Back to FOs who have been waiting for THEIR cammand for 11 yrs, I have 2questions.
1.Are you trying to tell me for the last 11yrs EK did not promote any FO to CPT position ?
2.Why did they skip you ? could it be that you need to look at your own performence and attitude ?
3.If the answer is NO to all the above, then you have been treated unfairlly, and you should take maters in you own hand, such look for another airline that will give you a fair deal.
You knew very well when you came here that there were no unions to back you up. You knew that if you rub your boss the wrong side, YOU are the looser. And yet you accepted the job. Why are you now making such a big fuss ?
Another thing I like, DECs come here to take our jobs. Since when those were your jobs ? you joined as FOs with possibility for command. Read your contract again, is the command guaranteed ?

[ratpoison]

Read your contract again

Maybe you should be saying that to the turds in management.

[MR8]

tournesol said:

Another thing I like, DECs come here to take our jobs. Since when those were your jobs ? you joined as FOs with possibility for command. Read your contract again, is the command guaranteed ?

Actuelly, the answer to your question is a sort of YES!!
Our contract goes together with the rules laid out in the FOM. And guess what the FOM says... well, we all know it, first 3 year guys, then accelerated guys, last DEC's. If you want me to go and look up the exact ording again, I'll do it, or you can just search for it on PPRUNE, I posted it before.
So, although I have to agree that you are not guaranteed the command, we were (actually according to he present rulesm we still ARE) guaranteed to have a shot at command, that is, the assessment, and when that's good, the actual course.

So please tournesol, stop posting cr@p to wind people up, it just shows how much of a w@nk3r you are... Almost as bad as Captain America/Tartan Boy.

Well, I'm off doing more interesting things..

MR8

[ekpilot]

Aren't you all just dying to find out the EK definition of "specific circumstances"...

[Fart Master]

Yeah just read the letter, very interesting. But given that they are already doing transition upgrades for accelerated guys I would assume (Dangerous word that!) that it would involve the 3 year guys

[tournesol]

MR 8,
You are showing your true colors.
Rather than responding to a fair question, you are calling me names.
That will only increase your frustrations. If you could spend the same amount of energy in looking for the reasons of why YOU haven't been given a shot for command and DO SOMETHING about it, you might be a Cpt prety soon.
A childish attitude of calling names, blaming eveyone else for your misfortunes and prejudice implications won't get you far.
You should learn how to be civil even when the going gets tough. You will be amazed on how many ppl notice your behaviour based on what you say and your body language projects.
If you are good enough and behave like a pro, EK will give you a chance for command sooner or later. If you are not good enough and behave like a kid, you will spend more time wining on pprune and entertain the world.
G'day mate.

[MR8]

tournesol...

I know why I don't have my command yet at EK, that's because I'm just coming up my 3 years in the company, and there is a load of people ahead of me on the seniority list who will have their shot first, as they should. I came to EK by my own choice, giving up a good seat and some salary, would I do it again.. well yes I would. But it doesn't mean that I can't be seriously p1ss3d off at the way I am treated here. And that includes DEC's!!
Actually, if there were no DEC's, I could start my Command course about now... and you might have a chance to prove your point about my maturity if I should fail.. Unfortunately, with the delays of the A380 and he DEC's coming in, it looks like we have to wait another 2 years to prove anything..
So why the hostile attitude towards you? First of all, I went a bit through your history of postings, and it is very clear that you are very opinionated, even though you might not have the inside information. As for EK, somehow, you keep replying to posts on EK, yet you don't fly here.. So how can you ask me to read my contract (which includes the FOM) if you don't have a copy yourself? How can you know how much we have been lied to by management in the past years, if you never got the letters? How can you know how our conditions have been changed already in the time that I have been here, so let alone for the guys who have been here for a much longer time, all 'cost neutral' for the company, but somehow costing the pilot group a fortune? How can you know how bad the flying skills of most people are in EK, not because they are bad pilots, but because the company doesn't want us to practise the AVIATE step anymore in Aviate-Navigate-Comminicate? I am aware that some of these things happen in other companies as well, but you won't see me posting on their forums, because I have no idea about how things work over there..
So, I hope this answers your question about why I don't have my command yet, as well as why I have a certain opinion about you.

To bed now..

MR8

[turtleneck]

the contract may go with the fom. however there is no mention of this in it. the fom can be changed
or even overlooked without breach of our contract. 3 years to upgrade are just a verbal promise, not
even a verbal contract. at the moment all upgrades happen before 4 years, this should still be very
much in tolerance of normal airline fluctuation.
consider this: those dec's who cared to ask were also told that no fo would be overlooked
for the 3 year line (at least the first bunch recruited for the 343's). now that everyone has been lied to,
do you realistcally think that they would feel obliged to quit? by constantly hitting on them you imply
that they should assume responsibility for management screwups to please the fo's? - get real mates.
it's just as arrogant as the dec-nursing argument, like: [quote] "...but we, the more experienced f/os, have to
actually finish their training on the line, as unofficial "training f/os" ... for free :-)))...." [endquote]
to overrate yourself is quite dangerous for your upgrade....
dec's were reintroduced in sep 03. every fo entering later would have known about and cannot complain. those
who joined just before should be in their upgrade shortly, within 4 years, if they performed normally.
you can now stop with the dec-bashing.

[Kawasaki787]

Ek Busting Flight Time Limiations

For those who want to join EK, beware that you will be rostered to a maximum of 8 Days OFF, operating through many times zones, spending 24 hours, then returning to Dubai. They will send you on a daylight flight, expect you to have 2x rest periods in a 24 hour layover, then fly back at night!! Initially this will be okay, but you will start to feel it after many months.

In-flight sleep quarters are uncomfotable and add to fatigue. For starters, the atmosphere on the 340-500 is dry, so one needs to drink continuously. This in turn requires constant dunny visits, which disturbs sleep. On the Boeing 777, one canno't stand. The only place to eat is in the cockpit.

Most flights are rostered to maximum duty but expect to be on duty more than the MAX as the actual report time is NOT logged!! Managment expects pilots to fly into discretion, they even send out emails to highlight this!! I thought discretion is at the end of a flight when one can guage if tired or NOT.

Flight Operations management do not know the line culture as they are employed in non flying positions. They are "YES BOSS" oriented.

Now they have applied to work pilots to 1100 FLIGHT hours per year, while the DUTY hours will be much longer and you will not be paid for the extra work. This is unsafe on the long haul operation, maybe OK on short haul acclimatised. They simply don'y care.

Virgin Blue or equivalent will be better in terms of longevity. More to come....

By the way, expect to be lied to all the time, particularly by TCAS!!! Ask any British Airways pilot about him.

[dogcrushedvelvet]

Originally Posted by turtleneck

dec's were reintroduced in sep 03. every fo entering later would have known about and cannot complain. those
who joined just before should be in their upgrade shortly, within 4 years, if they performed normally.
you can now stop with the dec-bashing.

So writes a DEC.

Except that there could be a 100 or more First Officers disadvantaged in perpetuity in both salary and command seniority by the DEC program.

Of course it's healthy to move on. So just do as turtleneck says lads, and stop bashing the DECs.

Anyway, the management will be expecting an outburst of high morale over the next few days, a company party's sure to make everybody forget about their lifestyle and career issues. Or will it?