Emirates - New Conditions
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For the answer is to provide a "Korean Airlines" type of rostering pattern (even the option of it for those that want a commuting type lifestyle). EK retains us all as UAE residents BUT we are able to maintain a somewhat normal life outside of the UAE. This would keep me here long term.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Emirates has never been a big payer, it's always sat in the middle group. And 10 years ago this didn't matter. Those who joined either by design or more often by circumstance found good flying and a city that was easy to live in. So the money was enough.
Not anymore. Dubai is becoming a hardship posting and the money doesn't cut it anymore.
YYZs points are well made but singularly or collectively they wouldn't drive me out of EK.
The two things that will and are driving me out are working a short haul/long haul/ultra long haul roster with short haul rest patterns month in month out and the increasing misery and sometimes fear of negotiating the traffic in Dubai.
As chuck kindly pointed out if the work and the driving don't get me first then the ulcer will.
QUOTE=Chimbu chuckles;3069812]Thanks Theidler deconstruct away..................and leave you to your developing ulcer[/QUOTE]
Not anymore. Dubai is becoming a hardship posting and the money doesn't cut it anymore.
YYZs points are well made but singularly or collectively they wouldn't drive me out of EK.
The two things that will and are driving me out are working a short haul/long haul/ultra long haul roster with short haul rest patterns month in month out and the increasing misery and sometimes fear of negotiating the traffic in Dubai.
As chuck kindly pointed out if the work and the driving don't get me first then the ulcer will.
QUOTE=Chimbu chuckles;3069812]Thanks Theidler deconstruct away..................and leave you to your developing ulcer
[/QUOTE]
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The UAE traffic is not under Emirates' control. It should be mentioned that they have been highly supportive to those who have suffered tragedy
Nonetheless, the traffic should be seriously considered before moving to Dubai. Its level of risk for death or serious injury surpasses any other city I have driven in by a wide margin.
There have been tragic losses to the families of pilots and one should also consider those flight attendants that have lost their lives on these roads.
Almost everyone call recount a number of very near misses that might well have resulted in their fatality. Fate is certainly the hunter. There are almost daily incidents, to someone in our profession, where minor injury or damage occurs through no fault of their own. These are traumatic and expensive for those concerned.
Aside from this, driving is unpleasant and tedious. The volume of heavy traffic is intimidating; convoys of large trucks moving at high speed, interspaced with frustrated drivers manoevring recklessly around them. Occassional suicidal drivers moving at ridiculous velocities in large saloons or SUV's. All this against a backdrop of tangled interchanges, badly controlled intersections, confusing or inadequate signs, road works, diversions and thousands of red cones or barriers that are poorly lit or advertised.
It is tiring and stressful. I believe it to be more stressful than we give credit for.
The reasons are multiple: Expansion and poor planning, inadequate policing, insufficient regulation, unaccountability of a chosen few, low levels of education for the majority of drivers, windshield tinting. The list goes on.
Its not likely to change much in the near future. Given the proposed expansion there is a strong case that it will get markedly worse. Certainly it has got steadily worse in the past ten years.
Those of us already here must simply weigh up the risks against everything else. For those considering moving to Dubai, I would recommend a few days of driving around to see for yourselves. Look at the routes your family may have to take at relevant times.
As requested, I will be taking the minute of silence at 16:35, Dubai time, in respect to the family of one of our most highly regarded Captains, to contemplate their tragic loss.
Nonetheless, the traffic should be seriously considered before moving to Dubai. Its level of risk for death or serious injury surpasses any other city I have driven in by a wide margin.
There have been tragic losses to the families of pilots and one should also consider those flight attendants that have lost their lives on these roads.
Almost everyone call recount a number of very near misses that might well have resulted in their fatality. Fate is certainly the hunter. There are almost daily incidents, to someone in our profession, where minor injury or damage occurs through no fault of their own. These are traumatic and expensive for those concerned.
Aside from this, driving is unpleasant and tedious. The volume of heavy traffic is intimidating; convoys of large trucks moving at high speed, interspaced with frustrated drivers manoevring recklessly around them. Occassional suicidal drivers moving at ridiculous velocities in large saloons or SUV's. All this against a backdrop of tangled interchanges, badly controlled intersections, confusing or inadequate signs, road works, diversions and thousands of red cones or barriers that are poorly lit or advertised.
It is tiring and stressful. I believe it to be more stressful than we give credit for.
The reasons are multiple: Expansion and poor planning, inadequate policing, insufficient regulation, unaccountability of a chosen few, low levels of education for the majority of drivers, windshield tinting. The list goes on.
Its not likely to change much in the near future. Given the proposed expansion there is a strong case that it will get markedly worse. Certainly it has got steadily worse in the past ten years.
Those of us already here must simply weigh up the risks against everything else. For those considering moving to Dubai, I would recommend a few days of driving around to see for yourselves. Look at the routes your family may have to take at relevant times.
As requested, I will be taking the minute of silence at 16:35, Dubai time, in respect to the family of one of our most highly regarded Captains, to contemplate their tragic loss.
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VORSICHT- I agree
CANADANSK- not in your or my lifetime
THEIDLER- apart from the traffic issue, I agree
DISC- a sensible gripe but one that the company can do sweet nothing about.
CANADANSK- not in your or my lifetime
THEIDLER- apart from the traffic issue, I agree
DISC- a sensible gripe but one that the company can do sweet nothing about.
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Traffic, Traffic, Traffic.
I know a bit about traffic; my family having done an aileron role in a Prado on a roundabout in Dubai. It sucks but there is nothing EK can do about it. Whoever talked about the bucket theory got it right. Traffic is a major contributor to the sh1t bucket and for many the cash has ceased outweighing it.
From my point of view, the payrise is welcome but it disappoints me that it wasn't just a blanket 'take 20% boys'. That would be nice, I wouldn't have the feeling that some (not particularly smart) bean counter thinks he is pulling a fast one.
Instead we get flying pay which is variable and non-pensionable thus saving the company cash or denying the full effect of the rise. Why so cynical? Over the last few years we have lived through the 'cost neutral' scam. It actually was 'cost neutral' if everyone flew to the hourly limit without overtime. Since then however, we have often ended up with 75hrs block in a month when we have taken 7 days leave and had our PPC. This is how they changed our credit rules:
YYZ,
Small beer really. DECs has been a disaster unless you got in as one. Use of the jump seat will help on some flights but not on the big commuter routes because the cockpit is already full. 2 ALTs/year, why not. Pay for the training/sim.... Aaaah, return to the status quo and give us back the 15% that was removed 3 years ago, now there is an idea. Perhaps it has been done with the new flying pay scheme but with the proviso that we will still get worked to the limit.
I am delighted to get a raise. I don't think it will stop guys leaving or make guys jump at EK. Most people don't make their decision on whether to join a company based just on money unless they are comparing 2 companies working in the same country or that have the same working conditions. Mind you there is a guy on the EK forum who thinks EK is the best. If I get him right its because the hosties are all young and as a singly living on the SZR he doesn't need his car to get to their appartments for a shag.
Were I to make a change I'd see if commuting rosters were feasible for those that want to do it. (That wouldn't even cost money but it would stop the Aussie/Brit/SA brigade whining at me) I'd also make overtime optional rather than compulsory; that was the biggest knock to our lifestyle and that is what changed with the old credit scam. The company have worked us harder for less cash and have under-resourced the pilot workforce ever since.
Ghost
I know a bit about traffic; my family having done an aileron role in a Prado on a roundabout in Dubai. It sucks but there is nothing EK can do about it. Whoever talked about the bucket theory got it right. Traffic is a major contributor to the sh1t bucket and for many the cash has ceased outweighing it.
From my point of view, the payrise is welcome but it disappoints me that it wasn't just a blanket 'take 20% boys'. That would be nice, I wouldn't have the feeling that some (not particularly smart) bean counter thinks he is pulling a fast one.
Instead we get flying pay which is variable and non-pensionable thus saving the company cash or denying the full effect of the rise. Why so cynical? Over the last few years we have lived through the 'cost neutral' scam. It actually was 'cost neutral' if everyone flew to the hourly limit without overtime. Since then however, we have often ended up with 75hrs block in a month when we have taken 7 days leave and had our PPC. This is how they changed our credit rules:
{Written in 2004.} 42 days leave, 10 training days, 30 hrs dead heading and 10 standbys/year. Under the old system that would have added up to about 205 hrs of credit. The reduction in overtime trigger off-sets about 76 hrs. So every pilot loses about 130hrs of potential overtime/year i.e. 52k/yr for Captains and 37k for F/Os.
So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. Individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work.
So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. Individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work.
1. No more DEC's
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days
I am delighted to get a raise. I don't think it will stop guys leaving or make guys jump at EK. Most people don't make their decision on whether to join a company based just on money unless they are comparing 2 companies working in the same country or that have the same working conditions. Mind you there is a guy on the EK forum who thinks EK is the best. If I get him right its because the hosties are all young and as a singly living on the SZR he doesn't need his car to get to their appartments for a shag.
Were I to make a change I'd see if commuting rosters were feasible for those that want to do it. (That wouldn't even cost money but it would stop the Aussie/Brit/SA brigade whining at me) I'd also make overtime optional rather than compulsory; that was the biggest knock to our lifestyle and that is what changed with the old credit scam. The company have worked us harder for less cash and have under-resourced the pilot workforce ever since.
Ghost
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Emirates pays us to fly their airplanes, train their pilots, AND to move our families half way around the world AND to live in Dubai. All of these things go into the equation and the traffic, whether it is of Emirates making or not is part of living in Dubai. I and many others find ourselves saying more and more often, "They don't pay me enough for this sh....!" Some of this shi.... is of Emirates making and some of it isn't but it all affects whether it is worth it or not. Jobs that are in difficult places to live routinely pay premiums for those places. It is a normal part of global business. The question is whether Dubai now requires a premium. When many of us came here, Dubai provided a lifestyle that didn't require a premium. In fact, Emirates did trade on that (no one ever accused them of not being shrewd). I think that what many of us are saying is that given the diminishing lifestyle factors of Dubai (both company induced and external), that a premium to live here is now in order. In fact, many other companies in Dubai are now starting to realize this. What many are also saying is that if the company addressed those issues that are under their control (rosters/fatigue, credit and in general, respect), that the premium would not need to be quite so large.
Does the pay increase address this? "Are they now paying me enough for this sh...?". I think that most of the responses here (which in my opinion tend to reflect the larger pilot force) answer that question.
Does the pay increase address this? "Are they now paying me enough for this sh...?". I think that most of the responses here (which in my opinion tend to reflect the larger pilot force) answer that question.
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Nahh...,
It has been said before, they'll eventually open a basing in the USA or NZ for the "round the world" operation. It will be for new hires, to attract newbee's and it will. They will be on a different (much better) contract, fly only the back-side routes only, no contact with us, the left behinds.
pick me up before you Go Go
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I reckon I might actually arrive over 2 1/2 hrs before the flight. What will I do? I hope I am going to get a Starbucks allowance and be allowed into the terminal. Maybe the new package includes a refuelling and loading allowance!
Join Date: Sep 1999
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SW5 165= 2hrs 45min In 8 years it has never taken me longer than 1hr 20 min to get to the cbc/tbf/ops center/training center, if they arrive on time!
The average would be 45-50 min.
I think we have been shafted again with this one. Obviously the Audi drivers were consulted on this but how about us???
It will of course be easier for EK to fill each car with multiple pick ups now that they have extra time! For us poor, sleep deprived and fatigued aeroplane
drivers- we get an extra 30-40 min to spend driving around town or standing at the CBC.
Just a thought- Is it illegal for us to start flight planning prior to sign on time?
I mean are we not actually involved in the exercising of our legal responsibilities as flight crew while performing such duties as signing on, briefing, flight planning, FCIs, ordering fuel etc.
It is quite possible that a lot of us will now be signing on at the CBC around two hours before departure, yet our Duty time sign on time is being recorded as one hour prior, and our duty limits calculated from then. (illegally IMOH)
The average would be 45-50 min.
I think we have been shafted again with this one. Obviously the Audi drivers were consulted on this but how about us???
It will of course be easier for EK to fill each car with multiple pick ups now that they have extra time! For us poor, sleep deprived and fatigued aeroplane
drivers- we get an extra 30-40 min to spend driving around town or standing at the CBC.
Just a thought- Is it illegal for us to start flight planning prior to sign on time?
I mean are we not actually involved in the exercising of our legal responsibilities as flight crew while performing such duties as signing on, briefing, flight planning, FCIs, ordering fuel etc.
It is quite possible that a lot of us will now be signing on at the CBC around two hours before departure, yet our Duty time sign on time is being recorded as one hour prior, and our duty limits calculated from then. (illegally IMOH)
Join Date: May 2002
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don't worry guys and girls, if you arrive too early at the CBC, you can always step into the office and volunteer for some office duty...
Now, to stay at EK, these would be my priorities, not that anyone cares, but...
1. Base in Europe
2. Commuting roster
3. By-pass pay
4. Only flight duties
...and none of the above if our salary is increased at least 50% effective immediately...
PS. SW, I believe the check-in computers do not allow you to check-in before a particular time prior to your assigned flight.... so, no record of that..
Now, to stay at EK, these would be my priorities, not that anyone cares, but...
1. Base in Europe
2. Commuting roster
3. By-pass pay
4. Only flight duties
...and none of the above if our salary is increased at least 50% effective immediately...
PS. SW, I believe the check-in computers do not allow you to check-in before a particular time prior to your assigned flight.... so, no record of that..
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It will be worth considering the new pick up times when you decide if you want to go into discretion or not. If you are leaving the house 2 hours before your check in time that must be a factor in how tired you are.
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Hmmmm if the car shows up at -165 do we actually have to board or why not wait until -135? I live near the 5th interchange and it only takes :30 to get to CBC unless in the afternoon rush. Are they pushing us to self drive??
Great turn out at Kimberlies memorial.........
My kids are +/- in age and it makes one wonder if it's all worth it!
All the best Marc. May you and the family have the strength to get through this one day at a time..
Great turn out at Kimberlies memorial.........
My kids are +/- in age and it makes one wonder if it's all worth it!
All the best Marc. May you and the family have the strength to get through this one day at a time..
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Back to the thread, this is a 6% pay rise come May + nominal flying pay, nothing more nothing less.
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Letter to management
Although I know it's probably not worth the effort and the paper, but why not write a serious group letter to Ed, TCAS, TC, Maurice and HH? If we could verbalize our grievances in a serious constructive way in a letter that we post on pprune, post in CBC, as well as to all mentioned above, at least we can expect some answers. Lets start:
Dear Sirs,
....
MR8
Dear Sirs,
....
MR8
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The transport issue is nothing more than a squeeze on conditions. EK and Al futtaim want you all to buy a second car , so in a few months when youre pissed off about the whole thing youll just drive yourself to work, and you can legally show up 1 hour before, with all the delays ex Dubai it wont make any difference to departure time. But EK will save loads on transport.
We will eventually erode our own conditions , in the future they may make pik up 4 hours before , hey the offers there but nobody will use it.
You cannot beat these pricks but they have lost all loyalty and many many guys are ready to jump.
We will eventually erode our own conditions , in the future they may make pik up 4 hours before , hey the offers there but nobody will use it.
You cannot beat these pricks but they have lost all loyalty and many many guys are ready to jump.
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I have to agree that only a very few would gain the advantage if a straight basing system was to be introduced. However, knowing EK, my guess would be that they would make any system they introduced so unattractive that few current pilots would (or could afford to) take them up, so then they’d be offered to new hires (which would have been the real plan from the start, as it’s new hires they’re trying to attract and can’t convince to come and live in Dubai).
But what could be made work – and very easily – would be a variation of the KAL system, (and not unlike what Wiley suggested)
– e.g. start duty as operating crew from the designated port of domicile, and fly a roster when and as required by EK for the next ‘n’ days of the month, ending with a final leg as operating crew back into port of domicile (and another pilot with the same domicile port takes the service out as operating crew).
Even this would only be available to a relatively small number of people, but I suppose it would be a case of ‘seniority rules’, so everyone would be able to look forward to getting one eventually if he wanted it – unless, of course, they come up with a separate package available only to new hires, which (sad to say) no one here would put past them.
But what could be made work – and very easily – would be a variation of the KAL system, (and not unlike what Wiley suggested)
…or failing that, (and maybe even better than basings), allowing a number of pilots to write their rosters from a designated outport.
Even this would only be available to a relatively small number of people, but I suppose it would be a case of ‘seniority rules’, so everyone would be able to look forward to getting one eventually if he wanted it – unless, of course, they come up with a separate package available only to new hires, which (sad to say) no one here would put past them.
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Mein predikshuns!
Guten haftanoon,
Zer pay rise is like zer Waffen SS; too liddle, too late! Zere SS vere to slow in dealink viz zere little 'Punch und Juden' problem, und zer 'problem' moved to ozzer kuntries to korse more problems. Even zat fantische aktor und Ozmate, Mel Gibsun, has been vingeing about zem causing all zer Vorld Vors.
I always said mein Furher vos innosent!
Zer same ist happenink in Emirates. Zer insuffishuntrisenontime inkrese ist nicht enuff to stem zer ourflow auf kvalitats Luftmen. Zer whores have bolted before zer doors vos closed, no; so to sprechen.
Ach, I know ve haf moved on lieblings, und kannot look at ze past, so, mein schnitzels, lettuce look into zer future mit mein prediktions:
a. Basinks; Only zer DEC's vill haf zem as even zey cannot afford to kum to zer land auf dates und funny salad, zat stiks on zer teeth. Zer EK Furher vill not allow zer konditions to improve. As zer Furher says; "If zey don't like it, zey kan Bumsen auf!"
b. Reichmarks: Only zer Ozmates deserve zer inkrese in zer money, as zey are ze only vuns kapable auf talking out of zere Ausgang holes! HA HA! Only joking mein prisoner Tommy's.
c. Drivink zer automobilen: Shtay at home und drink schnapps (but nicht before zer 4 hour before zer duty pickuppen)
d. Pik up timen: Ve vill build ze hotel at CBC so you kan kum to verk und never leave. Maximum prodoktivity viz kost neutral.
Auf wiedersen....
Zer pay rise is like zer Waffen SS; too liddle, too late! Zere SS vere to slow in dealink viz zere little 'Punch und Juden' problem, und zer 'problem' moved to ozzer kuntries to korse more problems. Even zat fantische aktor und Ozmate, Mel Gibsun, has been vingeing about zem causing all zer Vorld Vors.
I always said mein Furher vos innosent!
Zer same ist happenink in Emirates. Zer insuffishuntrisenontime inkrese ist nicht enuff to stem zer ourflow auf kvalitats Luftmen. Zer whores have bolted before zer doors vos closed, no; so to sprechen.
Ach, I know ve haf moved on lieblings, und kannot look at ze past, so, mein schnitzels, lettuce look into zer future mit mein prediktions:
a. Basinks; Only zer DEC's vill haf zem as even zey cannot afford to kum to zer land auf dates und funny salad, zat stiks on zer teeth. Zer EK Furher vill not allow zer konditions to improve. As zer Furher says; "If zey don't like it, zey kan Bumsen auf!"
b. Reichmarks: Only zer Ozmates deserve zer inkrese in zer money, as zey are ze only vuns kapable auf talking out of zere Ausgang holes! HA HA! Only joking mein prisoner Tommy's.
c. Drivink zer automobilen: Shtay at home und drink schnapps (but nicht before zer 4 hour before zer duty pickuppen)
d. Pik up timen: Ve vill build ze hotel at CBC so you kan kum to verk und never leave. Maximum prodoktivity viz kost neutral.
Auf wiedersen....
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410,
I don't know about all that:
First of all, it would, as you state correctly, only be for a small minority. The rest of us would suffer NOT getting the valuable flights home evry now and then because they are most of the time taken by the people who are based there.
Second, althoug EK wouldn't have to provide accomodation for the commuters, they will need to be put in hotels for every night of their 'n' days. I just can't see how EK can provide a good basing package at the same cost of a pilot who is living in DXB. Don't forget the 'based' guy needs to pay taxes, social security, ...
Third, and I'm not sure about this. What is the ration expats/local guys in most airlines who offer basings? I think that in KAL, JAL, MAL, ... the locals outnumber the expats. So even if it's a small minority who gets basings, it's still a big part of the expats who can have it. (basings or commuting rosters)
I'm not sure how CQ handles their system, but I do know they have a Çathay City' or whatever it's called at HK airport for their crew to stay when in HK. I know they offer basings on the 747-classic, for Cathay Cargo, at a reduced package compared to the mainline. I have no idea about basings for Cathay mainline operations (although I heard of a A340 FO opening in Amsterdam recently).
So to be fair, I don't think basings will be a good solution for the problem. The way to go is commuting rosters with confirmed seats. It must be quite easy to accomplish that: work somebody for almost 90 hrs in 3 weeks, then 2 weeks off. This will result in a monthly average of about 75hrs. SO there is no loss of productivity. The guys opting for the system KNOW they would have to work hard in their 3 weeks on, but I think a lot of us wouldn't mind, considering the time of at HOME you get after that.
I don't know about all that:
First of all, it would, as you state correctly, only be for a small minority. The rest of us would suffer NOT getting the valuable flights home evry now and then because they are most of the time taken by the people who are based there.
Second, althoug EK wouldn't have to provide accomodation for the commuters, they will need to be put in hotels for every night of their 'n' days. I just can't see how EK can provide a good basing package at the same cost of a pilot who is living in DXB. Don't forget the 'based' guy needs to pay taxes, social security, ...
Third, and I'm not sure about this. What is the ration expats/local guys in most airlines who offer basings? I think that in KAL, JAL, MAL, ... the locals outnumber the expats. So even if it's a small minority who gets basings, it's still a big part of the expats who can have it. (basings or commuting rosters)
I'm not sure how CQ handles their system, but I do know they have a Çathay City' or whatever it's called at HK airport for their crew to stay when in HK. I know they offer basings on the 747-classic, for Cathay Cargo, at a reduced package compared to the mainline. I have no idea about basings for Cathay mainline operations (although I heard of a A340 FO opening in Amsterdam recently).
So to be fair, I don't think basings will be a good solution for the problem. The way to go is commuting rosters with confirmed seats. It must be quite easy to accomplish that: work somebody for almost 90 hrs in 3 weeks, then 2 weeks off. This will result in a monthly average of about 75hrs. SO there is no loss of productivity. The guys opting for the system KNOW they would have to work hard in their 3 weeks on, but I think a lot of us wouldn't mind, considering the time of at HOME you get after that.