Emirates - New Conditions
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Don't mention the traffic? You obviously don't have to take kids to school each day, waldo.
For me, the traffic (or more specifically, the idiots I share the roads with who can try to kill me daily with total impunity and no fear of the law, as they're untouchable), is one of the main reasons I'll be leaving here earlier than I need to, so we're probably really tallking about the two teir legal system rather than the traffic per se.
I think a number of people have said that quality of life is as important to them as money, and the traffic is a big part of the lack of quality of life today.
Put it another way; the money bucket no longer outweighs the **other** one, as it once did.
For me, the traffic (or more specifically, the idiots I share the roads with who can try to kill me daily with total impunity and no fear of the law, as they're untouchable), is one of the main reasons I'll be leaving here earlier than I need to, so we're probably really tallking about the two teir legal system rather than the traffic per se.
I think a number of people have said that quality of life is as important to them as money, and the traffic is a big part of the lack of quality of life today.
Put it another way; the money bucket no longer outweighs the **other** one, as it once did.
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My point is lets grieve issues that management can do something about. Children have all left the air-conditioned nest however I do not live on an island and am subject to this mess.
Try the M25 on a Friday afternoon though, or a monday or tuesday or or or!!!!!!!
Try the M25 on a Friday afternoon though, or a monday or tuesday or or or!!!!!!!
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Waldo
With all due respect, if you do not have school age kids in Dubai, then your views on the traffic have little relevence to someone who does. It is a problem, regardless of whether the company can do anything about it or not, and it is influencing peoples (particularly wives) view of the long term viability of being resident in Dubai, therefore it is an issue for the company whether they want it to be or not.
nuff said.
nuff said.
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What can EK do about the traffic? I have kids in school and traffic is just plain stupid . The last time I checked EK did not run RTA. I guess everyone wants more money because of the traffic.Ya ok sure,cheques in the mail
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Fatbus/Waldorfin Traffic has nothing to do with money. I don't think that the guys are saying it's EK's fault that the traffic is dangerous. No money on EK's part will solve that. What will is the possibility of foreign bases, so people can still work for this company but live somewhere else. Someone mentioned the M25 in London - not all countries have that sort of traffic and few have traffic as dangerous as Dubai's.
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I concur that EK can do nothing about the traffic. But it will not be a particular problem to those with kids only. Just wait until they'll fix the pick-up time to 3 hours before ETD without any compensation and everyone will agree that traffic IS a problem that affects all of us. The horse has already fired a warning shot, so believe me, it won't be long and the traffic problem will be shoved upon us, and us only. 
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Waldo, the M25 is like afternoon tea at the Ritz compared with the free chipati queue mentality of the SZR. Not even close.
China you are so right, just lubing us up for the next round of bu**ering
China you are so right, just lubing us up for the next round of bu**ering
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You are all absolutely correct.
The bottom line is every pilot who leaves his/her own country to fly as an expat does it for 2 reasons........money and standard of living. Period. End of story.
Dubai in the past 5 years has gone from a quiet third world country where an EK pilot enjoyed a reasonable standard of living, had a reasonable life and could put away a few dollars/euros/pounds/yen/etc for retirement to a hell bent/corrupt/out of control third world country where EK pilots DO NOT enjoy a reasonable standard of living, don't have a reasonable life due to jet lag/manning/rostering/etc and cannot put away more than a pitance towards any sort of retirement.
The point is why in the hell would anyone outside EK leave his home country for this circus (unless they come from either a worse 3rd world country or are unemployed with no chance of a future in their home country). The answer is obvious in the fact EK CANNOT recruit the numbers of suitably qualified pilots they require. Hence this feable attempt to put "lipstick on this pig" to make it appear to outsiders things are getting better.
As an aside, a big thank you to the moderators of this forum for allowing the word to get out. It probably has saved hundreds of wanna-be's from making probably the biggest mistake of their aviation careers.
Just my thoughts.
The bottom line is every pilot who leaves his/her own country to fly as an expat does it for 2 reasons........money and standard of living. Period. End of story.
Dubai in the past 5 years has gone from a quiet third world country where an EK pilot enjoyed a reasonable standard of living, had a reasonable life and could put away a few dollars/euros/pounds/yen/etc for retirement to a hell bent/corrupt/out of control third world country where EK pilots DO NOT enjoy a reasonable standard of living, don't have a reasonable life due to jet lag/manning/rostering/etc and cannot put away more than a pitance towards any sort of retirement.
The point is why in the hell would anyone outside EK leave his home country for this circus (unless they come from either a worse 3rd world country or are unemployed with no chance of a future in their home country). The answer is obvious in the fact EK CANNOT recruit the numbers of suitably qualified pilots they require. Hence this feable attempt to put "lipstick on this pig" to make it appear to outsiders things are getting better.
As an aside, a big thank you to the moderators of this forum for allowing the word to get out. It probably has saved hundreds of wanna-be's from making probably the biggest mistake of their aviation careers.
Just my thoughts.
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Along with many colleagues I have chosen to drive on the M25 in preference to the Sheikh Zayed Road. I have chosen to pay tax and live in the UK. Why? Because a.) I can and b.) I want to. Dubai is not for me and I have chosen to leave for many reasons, some of which are stated above. Did the pay rise have any affect at all on my decision to go or give me a few regrets? No.
Now, I assume that those of you loving it in Dubai are staying because a.) You can and b.) You want to.
New Dubai has us split into two groups, you either love it, or hate it. Life's about nothing other than choices. Good luck with your decisions in life Gentlemen and I hope that whatever dreams you are chasing come true for you all.
Now, I assume that those of you loving it in Dubai are staying because a.) You can and b.) You want to.
New Dubai has us split into two groups, you either love it, or hate it. Life's about nothing other than choices. Good luck with your decisions in life Gentlemen and I hope that whatever dreams you are chasing come true for you all.
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Waldo
I agree that Emirates has little control regarding the appalling traffic situation but as someone has already stated, this does contribute to an overall deteriation in ones quality of life.This may ultimately be a factor in coming and more importantly, staying in EK.
Try telling the two families who've just lost a son and daughter in a tragic road accident that it's not 'part of the deal'. Every parents worst nightmare and a 24hr reality here in Dubai. An impact so great yet NO skid marks from the other vehicle! Maybe the Police should be looking at mobile phone records. I don't want to make any accusations as we don't know all the facts yet. Nor may we ever know the truth, but past experience in this part of the World has taught us that even if proved guilty, what kind of a sentance would the local woman expect to serve? A rhetorical question if ever there was one. Until the law stops differentiating between races and nationality, some locals will continue to take advantage of skewed rules and continue to drive like morons.
No, i'm sorry to say Waldo that for many of us, the way people drive here is very much a part of our daily life. I'm sure that for many reading this forum and for those that knew the family involved in this tragedy, our thoughts and prayers are with them at this difficult time.
I agree that Emirates has little control regarding the appalling traffic situation but as someone has already stated, this does contribute to an overall deteriation in ones quality of life.This may ultimately be a factor in coming and more importantly, staying in EK.
Try telling the two families who've just lost a son and daughter in a tragic road accident that it's not 'part of the deal'. Every parents worst nightmare and a 24hr reality here in Dubai. An impact so great yet NO skid marks from the other vehicle! Maybe the Police should be looking at mobile phone records. I don't want to make any accusations as we don't know all the facts yet. Nor may we ever know the truth, but past experience in this part of the World has taught us that even if proved guilty, what kind of a sentance would the local woman expect to serve? A rhetorical question if ever there was one. Until the law stops differentiating between races and nationality, some locals will continue to take advantage of skewed rules and continue to drive like morons.
No, i'm sorry to say Waldo that for many of us, the way people drive here is very much a part of our daily life. I'm sure that for many reading this forum and for those that knew the family involved in this tragedy, our thoughts and prayers are with them at this difficult time.
Last edited by BYMONEK; 17th Jan 2007 at 20:13.
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I really have to agree totally to the undeniable fact, that driving on Dubais roads ,is nowadays one of the most dangerous things i've ever experienced in live- and that includes parachuting, competition downhill-skiing, trekking through soutamerica/ climbing in Patagonia/ Torres de Paines& Himalaya and done some "sportsmans-class" aerobatics flying - which is far less dangerous ¬ endangered by some (not necessarily - but most of the times) young locals/nobrainers with their "daddy-sponsered" overpowered Sportcars, SUV or other misused vehicles on publich roads ! It's hillarious !
Examples - Here we go ....
... just last week, i've just been able to avoid crashing into a massive piece of furniture lying on the middle of SZR - apperantly just coming off from some open Pick-Up - which they use commonly for movin' their stuff here - with obviously insufficient (if any at all!) securing of that stuff!
everybody was driving around that lump with 100+ km/h - as it was in the middle of the lanes -deadly dangerous!!!
... on another occasion a local cab-driver veered (without any sign/ signal given) over all the lanes in front of the Jmeirah Beach Hotel - just to pick up a "russian lady" (my guess after sighting her with golden hand-bag and on high heels) signalling after finishing her "business" over there ... forcing me and others onto: MAX-Brake to avoid a collision ..
Furthermore - last year i visited a really nice friend of mine (a european EK Co-Pilot) at the American Hospital, who was run over at almost the same U-turn-Bay in Jumeirah, whilst he was sitting (not driving though!) on his bike (he shoudn't have done that ...), and got hit by a local reckless SUV-Driver with Sharjah plate, who was speeding through the U-turn bay, in an attempt to overtake some slower traffic ....
that poor guy broke his leg pretty badly in that incident - and police did nothing at all to find the driver, even as the make of the car and some letters of the arabic SHJ-licence-plate was given to the police by onlookers of the scene -
the policeman actually told witnesses, that the unlucky bike-driver, who was run over from behind, might have been speeding on his bike - whereas the witnesses confirmed to him, that he guy was stationary waiting on the bike to get over onto the other side, and not driving at all -as his bike had just suffered minimal glass damage /unlike his leg- the police-guy was however not convinced - nuff said ...
and i remember sadly that last year someone from AUS/NZ was run over, by bicycling on one of the major roads from behind - just like the popular young lad, who dared to get out of his car, after fuel starvation -
it's really like war out there - you never know, when Your number is coming up!
I'll be tomorrow givin' a last thouhgt to that very unlucky young couple that was hit flat-out by a local lady - on nthe Al-Wasl U-turn;
apparently as the damage to their car was deadly and fire involved, those two in the car dindn't survive;
i saw the accident-site in the afternoon, and could also find NO skidmarks at all from teh AUDI of that local lady!? - Odd!?
Said all that - and agreeing to Wileys post - i'm also one of the demotivated & postponed F/Os with >3 yrs in the company, who just had enough by now, and are actively looking for greener grass (where it grows naturally -that is)
- and those "peanuts" of salary increase, won't keep me off doing that and rather staying/ strugglin' here - my family & my health have to go first - and - yes - as stated above - it's sad to see, but You can't deny the fact (!) that Emirates has truely become one of the plenty third world airlines nowadays ...
"Pay penuts => You'll get monkeys ...."
Examples - Here we go ....
... just last week, i've just been able to avoid crashing into a massive piece of furniture lying on the middle of SZR - apperantly just coming off from some open Pick-Up - which they use commonly for movin' their stuff here - with obviously insufficient (if any at all!) securing of that stuff!
everybody was driving around that lump with 100+ km/h - as it was in the middle of the lanes -deadly dangerous!!!
... on another occasion a local cab-driver veered (without any sign/ signal given) over all the lanes in front of the Jmeirah Beach Hotel - just to pick up a "russian lady" (my guess after sighting her with golden hand-bag and on high heels) signalling after finishing her "business" over there ... forcing me and others onto: MAX-Brake to avoid a collision ..
Furthermore - last year i visited a really nice friend of mine (a european EK Co-Pilot) at the American Hospital, who was run over at almost the same U-turn-Bay in Jumeirah, whilst he was sitting (not driving though!) on his bike (he shoudn't have done that ...), and got hit by a local reckless SUV-Driver with Sharjah plate, who was speeding through the U-turn bay, in an attempt to overtake some slower traffic ....
that poor guy broke his leg pretty badly in that incident - and police did nothing at all to find the driver, even as the make of the car and some letters of the arabic SHJ-licence-plate was given to the police by onlookers of the scene -
the policeman actually told witnesses, that the unlucky bike-driver, who was run over from behind, might have been speeding on his bike - whereas the witnesses confirmed to him, that he guy was stationary waiting on the bike to get over onto the other side, and not driving at all -as his bike had just suffered minimal glass damage /unlike his leg- the police-guy was however not convinced - nuff said ...
and i remember sadly that last year someone from AUS/NZ was run over, by bicycling on one of the major roads from behind - just like the popular young lad, who dared to get out of his car, after fuel starvation -
it's really like war out there - you never know, when Your number is coming up!
I'll be tomorrow givin' a last thouhgt to that very unlucky young couple that was hit flat-out by a local lady - on nthe Al-Wasl U-turn;
apparently as the damage to their car was deadly and fire involved, those two in the car dindn't survive;
i saw the accident-site in the afternoon, and could also find NO skidmarks at all from teh AUDI of that local lady!? - Odd!?
Said all that - and agreeing to Wileys post - i'm also one of the demotivated & postponed F/Os with >3 yrs in the company, who just had enough by now, and are actively looking for greener grass (where it grows naturally -that is)
- and those "peanuts" of salary increase, won't keep me off doing that and rather staying/ strugglin' here - my family & my health have to go first - and - yes - as stated above - it's sad to see, but You can't deny the fact (!) that Emirates has truely become one of the plenty third world airlines nowadays ...
"Pay penuts => You'll get monkeys ...."
Last edited by Cyberbird; 17th Jan 2007 at 20:33.
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I totally agree with the following:
Lifestyle, not money, will keep people here long term.
Bases will keep them here even longer.
Without some fundamental changes to the management's understanding of the pilot's mindset and priorities, the outflow valve will remain fully open. Unfortunately I'm in the camp that believes they won't realize the problem until it's too late or at least until heads roll as widebodies are parked due to crewing issues.
As for the fact that driving should not be an issue, please think about what is more important to most of us - a big shiny a/c or our families safety. My wife already knows that one incident that's too close to home (accident, cultural, applied wasta, etc.) and we're outta here. That's something that bases would solve.
Lifestyle, not money, will keep people here long term.
Bases will keep them here even longer.
Without some fundamental changes to the management's understanding of the pilot's mindset and priorities, the outflow valve will remain fully open. Unfortunately I'm in the camp that believes they won't realize the problem until it's too late or at least until heads roll as widebodies are parked due to crewing issues.
As for the fact that driving should not be an issue, please think about what is more important to most of us - a big shiny a/c or our families safety. My wife already knows that one incident that's too close to home (accident, cultural, applied wasta, etc.) and we're outta here. That's something that bases would solve.
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Devils Advocate
Basings seem to be the big thing nowadays... I can see why, I wouldn't want my kid (if I had one) to grow up as a teenager in Dubai. I wouldn't be at easy if my wife (if I had one.. hehe) had to struggle through traffic everyday. Actually, although I'm quite happy at the time in Dubai, I wouldn't mind to go and live in a nice sunny place with real nature and real people, nice bars, relaxed atmosphere, you know... So, basings would make me happier as well!! I want a base as well!!
But then comes the wake-up call.. Even though EK would announce bases overseas, how many people would actually profit from that? On the contrary, how many people would suffer inderictly from having bases?
For example: EK announces a base in Sydney. Great news, everything I want, actually, me and a sh1tl0ad of Ozzies. And there obviously won't be that many places in a base. The contracts for the guys with a base might be ok, (otherwise I wouldn't want to go anyway) so these guys who do get it, well, they are probably going to stay untill they retire. How long would I have to wait to get into a base? Years? Is it worth staying that long in Dubai? If I want to get out, probably not.
On the contrary actually: because of my more senior colleagues who are now fat and happy in their Sydney base, I can't get any Sydney flights anymore, and I can't go and see my Ozzie chick anymore...
SO basically, oversea bases would be good for a happy few, but most people would have absolutely no advantage with it...
Commuting rosters or part time on the other hand...
MR8
But then comes the wake-up call.. Even though EK would announce bases overseas, how many people would actually profit from that? On the contrary, how many people would suffer inderictly from having bases?
For example: EK announces a base in Sydney. Great news, everything I want, actually, me and a sh1tl0ad of Ozzies. And there obviously won't be that many places in a base. The contracts for the guys with a base might be ok, (otherwise I wouldn't want to go anyway) so these guys who do get it, well, they are probably going to stay untill they retire. How long would I have to wait to get into a base? Years? Is it worth staying that long in Dubai? If I want to get out, probably not.
On the contrary actually: because of my more senior colleagues who are now fat and happy in their Sydney base, I can't get any Sydney flights anymore, and I can't go and see my Ozzie chick anymore...
SO basically, oversea bases would be good for a happy few, but most people would have absolutely no advantage with it...
Commuting rosters or part time on the other hand...
MR8
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Only things that would make me stay long term:
Final Salary Pension scheme - as the locals get at the moment!!!! This would really make people want to stay long term.
Basings - enough said, though my idea would be for a Korean type basing (not literally though still looking). The idea would be 2 weeks off, 4-6 weeks on, flying from Dubai or wherever they want. That way we could all live near an EK destination and commute. Simple.
Final Salary Pension scheme - as the locals get at the moment!!!! This would really make people want to stay long term.
Basings - enough said, though my idea would be for a Korean type basing (not literally though still looking). The idea would be 2 weeks off, 4-6 weeks on, flying from Dubai or wherever they want. That way we could all live near an EK destination and commute. Simple.
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While any pay rise is greatfully accepted, I agree with many that there are also conditions that can be changed at little expense to the company but would make a difference in morale, and I believe, recruiting;
1. No more DEC's
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days.
I know we could compose a list 20 items long but these seem like simple and easy solutions.
Cheers all,
YYZguy.
1. No more DEC's
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days.
I know we could compose a list 20 items long but these seem like simple and easy solutions.
Cheers all,
YYZguy.
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Firstly let me state that I am a personal friend of BOTH grieving families. I have been with them over the last 96 hours and lived this horror.
My point is EK can do nothing over the traffic, did someone really say driving the M25 was easy, surely not.
Yes- Dubai has grown into the “city that doesn’t care”, but what on earth can EK do about THAT. Basings ………… Laughable, it will never ever happen, besides will the whole company be based in their home country. No, at best it will be a few, my guess is less than 3% of the total pilot work force would be based, if ever it happened. I maintain basings to be highly unlikely though.
So what can we actually change? We know that management read these forums, lets give them something they can tangibly work with, none of this bleating over issues they have absolutely no control over.
For instance, YYZ's issues. Totally workable!!!!!!
My thoughts anyway.
My point is EK can do nothing over the traffic, did someone really say driving the M25 was easy, surely not.
Yes- Dubai has grown into the “city that doesn’t care”, but what on earth can EK do about THAT. Basings ………… Laughable, it will never ever happen, besides will the whole company be based in their home country. No, at best it will be a few, my guess is less than 3% of the total pilot work force would be based, if ever it happened. I maintain basings to be highly unlikely though.
So what can we actually change? We know that management read these forums, lets give them something they can tangibly work with, none of this bleating over issues they have absolutely no control over.
For instance, YYZ's issues. Totally workable!!!!!!
My thoughts anyway.
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OK Waldo,
I'll give em something tangible they can use. How about communicating with their workforce to find out where the problems lie, rather than d*ckheads like TCAS and the talking horse espousing their wisdom from up on high, like they actually have to put up with the things that affect us.
Until they actually ask us what would help, and engage in some constructive dialogue with some democratically chosen pilot representatives (who are not on management payroll), how the hell are they ever going to come close to finding out what the problems are, let alone finding a fix for them.
V
I'll give em something tangible they can use. How about communicating with their workforce to find out where the problems lie, rather than d*ckheads like TCAS and the talking horse espousing their wisdom from up on high, like they actually have to put up with the things that affect us.
Until they actually ask us what would help, and engage in some constructive dialogue with some democratically chosen pilot representatives (who are not on management payroll), how the hell are they ever going to come close to finding out what the problems are, let alone finding a fix for them.
V