EK Pilot Jailed
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I agree with you Jolly, but easier said than done sometimes, confronting a captain who you don't know well about something as serious as this in the sometimes frantic time before a departure. I also agree we shouldn't be slagging the captain involved. I'm sure a lot of us have been in a somewhat similar predicament at one time or another. I wish him all the best in the future. As from most incidents in aviation, maybe we can all learn from another's experience.
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Jolly,
I am with you on this one. The crew have to speak up. Wasn't there the case of a Captain that was jailed for attempting to operate an aircraft knowing that the First Officer and Purser were over the limit? You don't have to hang the guy, just give him a way out. Most guys would jump at the chance, they are anyway probably only going to work out of loyalty to keep the show on the road.
As far as issuing his name, I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't splashed over PPrune immediately the incident happened. I thought the guys showed a lot of integrity but sadly he is fair game to the press as soon as he has been found criminally liable.
I don't think alcohol is as big an issue now as it was say 15 years ago but I am quite worried at some of the trends. We have a guy advertising blood alcohol testers so that you won't get caught on a layover. I was then told by another pilot that they were of no use because the tolerances were not good enough and you had to get a 'fuel cell' device. To me that seems terrrible, almost as if guys are so sad that they have to drink to the absolute limit. I can understand an alcoholic or someone with other issues but I struggle to understand anyone that even feels the need to operate in this way.
Ruserious,
I wholeheartedly agree. But, maybe if we all learn something from this event we can prevent some other guys going down in flames in the future. Everyone makes mistakes; the secret is to not compound them. Those that know the individual concerned would tell you that this was just the last link in a very long chain. To some degree we are all culpable.
I wish him and the family well and hope they can rebuild there lives on the Gold Coast.
I am with you on this one. The crew have to speak up. Wasn't there the case of a Captain that was jailed for attempting to operate an aircraft knowing that the First Officer and Purser were over the limit? You don't have to hang the guy, just give him a way out. Most guys would jump at the chance, they are anyway probably only going to work out of loyalty to keep the show on the road.
As far as issuing his name, I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't splashed over PPrune immediately the incident happened. I thought the guys showed a lot of integrity but sadly he is fair game to the press as soon as he has been found criminally liable.
I don't think alcohol is as big an issue now as it was say 15 years ago but I am quite worried at some of the trends. We have a guy advertising blood alcohol testers so that you won't get caught on a layover. I was then told by another pilot that they were of no use because the tolerances were not good enough and you had to get a 'fuel cell' device. To me that seems terrrible, almost as if guys are so sad that they have to drink to the absolute limit. I can understand an alcoholic or someone with other issues but I struggle to understand anyone that even feels the need to operate in this way.
Ruserious,
But that does not mean we should should hurl stones, sit in judgement or otherwise castigate someone who we don't know or understand. I would not wish this on my worst enemy
I wish him and the family well and hope they can rebuild there lives on the Gold Coast.
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Well folks I can see it coming....airlines prohibiting consumption of alcohol while downroute on assignment regardless if that assignment is "rest" or otherwise..
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4 HP thanks anyway.
White knight : BullOOckks yourself. Obviously - and I don`t blame you- you`re not acquainted with every law in any country in this world. I can asure you, initials only is the rule in a few of them. (Only a few are civilised)
Fractional : sorry mate, too patronising. Never been in a situation were you were asking yourself "AM I legal"? Do you have 8 or 12 hrs limits, 2o mg/ml or nothing/ml ?
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did?
It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.
White knight : BullOOckks yourself. Obviously - and I don`t blame you- you`re not acquainted with every law in any country in this world. I can asure you, initials only is the rule in a few of them. (Only a few are civilised)
Fractional : sorry mate, too patronising. Never been in a situation were you were asking yourself "AM I legal"? Do you have 8 or 12 hrs limits, 2o mg/ml or nothing/ml ?
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did?
It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.
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There was a case while back in the USA where a J-31 capt was reported by a ground agent for being under the influence of alcohol, AFTER she closed the door and saw the flight depart...the Capt subsequently tested upon arrival and found to be so, the F.O. who denies noticing anything abnormal was subsequently sacked as well...apparently some with alcohol addiction show no obvious signs when intoxicated..food for thought
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So to take a read on this here on this forum:
a) this could happen to anyone
b) Heavy drinking on layovers is ok, as long as you don't get caught
c) Big difference in flying drunk and driving drunk. Driving drunk-bad, flying drunk-forgiveable and can happen to anyone.
It's not the gentleman in question we should feel bad for, but his family. The shame, financial ruin, and lives of his wife and children (if he had any) changed forever by his actions. If he had a true addiction and not just a layover social drinker, then he should have asked for help, knowing what the consequences could be.
Just watch out for your crewmembers. Take care of each other, and don't let this happen to your friends and collegues. It is sad, not just at your airline, but others around the world that layovers can't be enjoyed with out heavy drinking.
IXNAT
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Fractional : sorry mate, too patronising. Never been in a situation were you were asking yourself "AM I legal"? Do you have 8 or 12 hrs limits, 2o mg/ml or nothing/ml ?
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did? It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did? It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.
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Sec 3, Muttley Crew,
Sorry, I don't know much about the internal culture at EK, lost touch with them 5 or 6 years ago.
The point(s) I was trying to make is/are another one:
- What's the use of all the time and effort spent on modern CRM (and by that I don't mean Customer Relations Management - although that would come into it as well at some stage!;-) if the rest of the crew bail out or close their eyes?
- All crew are, among other things, employed, trained, paid for and licensed to...'operate and maintain the safety of the aircraft, flight, passengers, cargo...etc. at all times when on duty'.......basically the same meaning but different wording all around the world.
By 'overlooking' the state of condition of their sloshed Captain they did not only endanger their OWN behinds, but also those of all others who trust them to do their jobs properly! The crew, at least those more senior and worth their money, should have acted before this stupid incident made headlines!
I am quite sure that in some parts of the world, not only the airline directly concerned, but also the local CAA, DGCA, FAA ..... whatever they might be called, would take a very serious look into the performance of ALL the crew members involved. Licences and landing rights have already been pulled for less ...
But then.....that's all highly political!
Point made...but understood? ;-)
Cheers,
JI
Sorry, I don't know much about the internal culture at EK, lost touch with them 5 or 6 years ago.
The point(s) I was trying to make is/are another one:
- What's the use of all the time and effort spent on modern CRM (and by that I don't mean Customer Relations Management - although that would come into it as well at some stage!;-) if the rest of the crew bail out or close their eyes?
- All crew are, among other things, employed, trained, paid for and licensed to...'operate and maintain the safety of the aircraft, flight, passengers, cargo...etc. at all times when on duty'.......basically the same meaning but different wording all around the world.
By 'overlooking' the state of condition of their sloshed Captain they did not only endanger their OWN behinds, but also those of all others who trust them to do their jobs properly! The crew, at least those more senior and worth their money, should have acted before this stupid incident made headlines!
I am quite sure that in some parts of the world, not only the airline directly concerned, but also the local CAA, DGCA, FAA ..... whatever they might be called, would take a very serious look into the performance of ALL the crew members involved. Licences and landing rights have already been pulled for less ...
But then.....that's all highly political!
Point made...but understood? ;-)
Cheers,
JI
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lightning hits twice
Going back a few years, anyone remember the case of an EK Captain who stumbled walking up the stairs to the aircraft?
He was reported DRUNK by the purser (via mobile phone) while he was sitting in the flight deck doing his pre flight checks - dragged off the plane like a criminal by police, taken to hospital to draw blood, suspended from duty.
Result - NO alcohol, he simply stumbled walking up the steps.
NOT EVEN AN APOLOGY FROM THE COMPANY, OR PURSER FOR THE GRIEF THEY CAUSED HIM!
He was reported DRUNK by the purser (via mobile phone) while he was sitting in the flight deck doing his pre flight checks - dragged off the plane like a criminal by police, taken to hospital to draw blood, suspended from duty.
Result - NO alcohol, he simply stumbled walking up the steps.
NOT EVEN AN APOLOGY FROM THE COMPANY, OR PURSER FOR THE GRIEF THEY CAUSED HIM!
Warlock 2000 - As far as I remember that captain was the same JD who is now in jail. I was also there when the then HOFO Chris Knowles offered a profound apology in the presence of most of EK's brass.
Last edited by guidoknigge; 10th Dec 2006 at 17:34. Reason: typo
Incorrect
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As far as I am concerned, whilst you are on company time, you should not be drinking alcohol to the extent, that 12hrs later you are unable to pass a breath/blood alcohol test. Regardless of the days gone by when biggles ruled the skies, you are all charged with a position of responsibility/accountability. It's your choice.... you choose for that responsibility to be to your employer, or towards the fare paying passengers that have chosen to travel with your employer. At the end of the day, many of you so often preach on these pages about professionalism and respect, yet when one person makes a rather bad decision, a large amount of you want to make excuses....
He tested positive. There is very little else to discuss. The individual concerned made a bad decision, and he will live with that for the rest of his life.
Moving towards those who suggest he should have called in sick..... If (and only if) he knew of a drink addiction, or was willing to admit to one, he would have found zero support here in Dubai from the company. This is not the western world, and those that think it is, are sadly mistaken.
blueside,
I believe your intentions were honorable, however a simple, 'no, you have the wrong person' would have done nicely. The past is the past.
guidoknigge...
you gotta change your handle dude.... no more ciggies for you..... haha
He tested positive. There is very little else to discuss. The individual concerned made a bad decision, and he will live with that for the rest of his life.
Moving towards those who suggest he should have called in sick..... If (and only if) he knew of a drink addiction, or was willing to admit to one, he would have found zero support here in Dubai from the company. This is not the western world, and those that think it is, are sadly mistaken.
blueside,
I believe your intentions were honorable, however a simple, 'no, you have the wrong person' would have done nicely. The past is the past.
guidoknigge...
you gotta change your handle dude.... no more ciggies for you..... haha
Funny thing is some guys dont need to be pissed to still be a danger to the passengers.EK allow that up to 1% of their workforce will end up in jail at some point throughout their career.Ie car crashs, fingers up, bounced cheques. Anybody who signed a security check with mashreq bank to get a credit card is in serious danger , do not continue it go to another bank for cards like HSBC or citibank.
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Rambo,
pls pm me with the dangers of mashreq bank security cheques. Can't remember if I signed one or not. Sorry for the change of tack in this thread. No doubt JD did wrong but there are some holier than thou attitudes on display here. It's ironic that companies can fatigue us to the point where we have some equivalency of insobriety and yet not face any kind of prosecution.
pls pm me with the dangers of mashreq bank security cheques. Can't remember if I signed one or not. Sorry for the change of tack in this thread. No doubt JD did wrong but there are some holier than thou attitudes on display here. It's ironic that companies can fatigue us to the point where we have some equivalency of insobriety and yet not face any kind of prosecution.
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I can confirm that the captain who fell while boarding the crew bus was definitely not JD.
Some might have missed the long post from Capt Lyle Prouse of NW Airlines on page 3 of the thread on this same subject on the main Pprune page. It's well worth a read, particularly by those in the "hang, draw and quarter the guilty bastard" brigade.
Some might have missed the long post from Capt Lyle Prouse of NW Airlines on page 3 of the thread on this same subject on the main Pprune page. It's well worth a read, particularly by those in the "hang, draw and quarter the guilty bastard" brigade.
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Bylaw - "civilised" countries
Which ones don't allow full names of adults who are found to be guilty of a CRIMINAL charge to be published....
I don't recall the Yorkshire Ripper as being P.S in the papers, or Moors murderer M.H As for the States, the Oklahoma Bomber wasn't T.M. I'm not saying by any means that this case can be equated to these - however these are just examples.....
Never met the guy but I sincerely hope that he and his family can pick up the pieces after this..
Which ones don't allow full names of adults who are found to be guilty of a CRIMINAL charge to be published....I don't recall the Yorkshire Ripper as being P.S in the papers, or Moors murderer M.H
As for the States, the Oklahoma Bomber wasn't T.M. I'm not saying by any means that this case can be equated to these - however these are just examples.....Never met the guy but I sincerely hope that he and his family can pick up the pieces after this..
Last edited by White Knight; 11th Dec 2006 at 08:24.
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White Knight : Sorry mate, yes there are countries which only allow initials.
For the law there`s also quite a big difference between a mass murderer and a drunk driver.
Luckily law in most countries do apply those differences, so that citizens do not get publicly hanged for stealing a bread, like in medievel times.
Although I do get the feeling that most people here would like a return to those times. (ixnat)
jollyikarus: does it occur to you that this guy did not behave like somebody beiing intoxicated? So who in the crew should pick up on that?
For the law there`s also quite a big difference between a mass murderer and a drunk driver.
Luckily law in most countries do apply those differences, so that citizens do not get publicly hanged for stealing a bread, like in medievel times.
Although I do get the feeling that most people here would like a return to those times. (ixnat)
jollyikarus: does it occur to you that this guy did not behave like somebody beiing intoxicated? So who in the crew should pick up on that?
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Bylaw - don't know those countries myself, although I have been resident in UK, USA, Canada and Australia over the years - as well as some more third world places...
Got to say I don't see how being "intoxicated" in charge of an airliner quite equates to stealing a loaf of bread It could however lead to mass murder - so get off your "high anonymity horse"
Got to say I don't see how being "intoxicated" in charge of an airliner quite equates to stealing a loaf of bread
It could however lead to mass murder - so get off your "high anonymity horse"