DXB - Vectors or Hold
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some watches put loads of flow rates on, sometimes without even looking at the prevailing traffic situation, others prefer to be flexible
well one of the problems is that NOBODY fails to validate because we need staff.
. The procedures help to keep the standrards low, as they are based around the lowest standard, examples;
5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!
5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!
your right fox. not going to change soon. we can bitch as much as we like but until one of the airline bosses stops smoking his hubbly-bubbly for more then 30sec and realises how much money its costing him nothing will be done.
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Holding v's Vectors
Definately Holding,
1/ Less chance of Human Error in having A/C circle in a prescribed area than with numerous RT calls and changes of vectors over the UAE airspace,
2/ More fuel efficient if the standard STAR was flown from the hold to landing allowing the A/C to follow a standard profile CDA to touchdown,
3/ Less RT if the standard arrival could be flown, obviously with SPD and ALT constrains.
4/Loging of actual holding delays would help in planning prior to Departure to DXB,
5/ Plane common sense.
1/ Less chance of Human Error in having A/C circle in a prescribed area than with numerous RT calls and changes of vectors over the UAE airspace,
2/ More fuel efficient if the standard STAR was flown from the hold to landing allowing the A/C to follow a standard profile CDA to touchdown,
3/ Less RT if the standard arrival could be flown, obviously with SPD and ALT constrains.
4/Loging of actual holding delays would help in planning prior to Departure to DXB,
5/ Plane common sense.
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So how would the controllers who troll this site feel about a 7000' min alt holding pattern over Sharjah that could feed either runway with minimum disruption if a runway switch occurs? (A sort of "Lambourne on Sand")
Such a close in hold, particularly if it was 120 inbound and a right hand pattern, (ie, in between Dubai and Sharjah), would cause minimum disruption to DXB and SHJ SIDS and would allow an almost constant descent onto finals after release from the hold.
With EK management's current fixation on saving money at all costs in all areas, I can't believe they haven't tumbled onto the incredible waste in unnecessary fuel burn they're incurring under the current system.
Such a close in hold, particularly if it was 120 inbound and a right hand pattern, (ie, in between Dubai and Sharjah), would cause minimum disruption to DXB and SHJ SIDS and would allow an almost constant descent onto finals after release from the hold.
With EK management's current fixation on saving money at all costs in all areas, I can't believe they haven't tumbled onto the incredible waste in unnecessary fuel burn they're incurring under the current system.
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approx 29 times flow was issued from dubai for inbounds for june and when i checked it was about the 25th, still 5 days to go (will get exact figures for you if you like) "flexible" crews must have been on leave.......
By that do you mean that anyone requesting more than the idle rate is being inflexible? That's a little naive don't you think? Surely the option of increased flow is there for a reason to control the amount of traffic entering the CTA. If it's busy with inbounds it reaches a point very quickly even with the Director position open where the sectors are at their maximum approved loading. Hence greater gaps in the arrivals. Let us not forget that according to the letter of agreement we cannot request speed control on individual flights to control the flow. The only way we can is to increase the rate. I'm sure there are some that do it too soon or too much, but everyone is well aware of the result if it's too little too late. I think it's obvious from the responses from the crews in this thread that holding is preferred to the ridiculous conga line that we get when insufficient flow is put on at the appropriate time. If it means applying the letter of agreement 'to the letter' it'll prove that the system doesn't work and that things need to change.
RD
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red no, just because dubai ask for extra spacing does not mean they are inflexable.
the inflexability is when dubai use "lots of dep's" as an excuse when there are 4 in the hour, or when they say its going to "get busy later" usually after 1930 and they put the flow in place of 35nm at 1800, or when we have a stream inbound from the west where we can give you 10-15nm intrail with just speeds, nothing inbound from the east for the next hour, with 1 depature pending and we are told no still need 20-35nm no reason given..... and the a/c are still given "track direct no speed" on first contact with dubai.
use the holds? yes i do when needed. vector? again guilty but try and avoid at all costs big multiple vectors. speeds again yes. do i use the holds more as a result of the points of view expressed on here. no. the traffic is on the arrivials sectors not on pprune.
if we are talking about sticking to the letter of agreement, ranbi gate heading 285deg does not = direct orsar, riket isn't direct tonvo and 3 dep through tonvo every ten min means 3 not 5. but you still ask for that stuff and we help you out because we are trying to "work together".
howabout a bit of the same from dubai. use the big range to look at the traffic and flow accordingly.
the inflexability is when dubai use "lots of dep's" as an excuse when there are 4 in the hour, or when they say its going to "get busy later" usually after 1930 and they put the flow in place of 35nm at 1800, or when we have a stream inbound from the west where we can give you 10-15nm intrail with just speeds, nothing inbound from the east for the next hour, with 1 depature pending and we are told no still need 20-35nm no reason given..... and the a/c are still given "track direct no speed" on first contact with dubai.
use the holds? yes i do when needed. vector? again guilty but try and avoid at all costs big multiple vectors. speeds again yes. do i use the holds more as a result of the points of view expressed on here. no. the traffic is on the arrivials sectors not on pprune.
if we are talking about sticking to the letter of agreement, ranbi gate heading 285deg does not = direct orsar, riket isn't direct tonvo and 3 dep through tonvo every ten min means 3 not 5. but you still ask for that stuff and we help you out because we are trying to "work together".
howabout a bit of the same from dubai. use the big range to look at the traffic and flow accordingly.
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I've kept shut for a while but Ali B, but you got to be kidding me...
Back in the day, if the Co-ordinator was switched on, he would look long range and assign speeds for the inbounds, (eg. first 3 guys less then 10 miles is ok, high speed and direct, then slow down number 4), and as long as the co-od knew what was up, it all worked out fine. Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.
You can't have it both ways, either let the co-ordinator call and co-ordinate what comes into our airspace and at what speed when it's busy, or get used to 30 miles and 230 kts for straight ins. There are tower controllers who REFUSE to use less them 8 mile gaps, and it is well within their right, so I would like you to work out how much space you need between 2 straight in arrivals to have 8 miles at touchdown? 10 miles with both of them coming thru 320 kts? Nope...
If they just let the Co-ordinator do his job, there would be 90% less BS then what goes on today... And that would also require having co-ordinators who are actually trained in the position... Ah forget it, sounds like work... nuthin will change so we're all just pissing in the wind...
Oh well, go Portugal, all you Dubai boys, when I get back I am collecting on those "friendly wagers!" If only Figo and Ronaldo we're running this airspace.....
Back in the day, if the Co-ordinator was switched on, he would look long range and assign speeds for the inbounds, (eg. first 3 guys less then 10 miles is ok, high speed and direct, then slow down number 4), and as long as the co-od knew what was up, it all worked out fine. Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.
You can't have it both ways, either let the co-ordinator call and co-ordinate what comes into our airspace and at what speed when it's busy, or get used to 30 miles and 230 kts for straight ins. There are tower controllers who REFUSE to use less them 8 mile gaps, and it is well within their right, so I would like you to work out how much space you need between 2 straight in arrivals to have 8 miles at touchdown? 10 miles with both of them coming thru 320 kts? Nope...
If they just let the Co-ordinator do his job, there would be 90% less BS then what goes on today... And that would also require having co-ordinators who are actually trained in the position... Ah forget it, sounds like work... nuthin will change so we're all just pissing in the wind...
Oh well, go Portugal, all you Dubai boys, when I get back I am collecting on those "friendly wagers!" If only Figo and Ronaldo we're running this airspace.....
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Figo and Ronaldo running the airspace FKD!!! Be to busy rolling around on the floor in agnony after they had sprained there little finger!!!
Never thought I would ever say this BUT GO FRANCE!!!!!
Never thought I would ever say this BUT GO FRANCE!!!!!
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FKD
Thanks for clearing up the mystery, the DUB coord has never actually worked according to what they are supposed to do? So blame the procedure you have never followed??? Does anyone in Dubai know whatthe coord is supposed to do?
The coord is supposed to determine the flow rate not coordinate individually, we are busy enough as it is, we do not have time to answer Dubai's call every minute. How about learning how to determine a basic flow rate and then having the balls to stand by it. Running at 30 miles is not determining a flow rate, that's determining a slow rate.
I'm getting too old for this, time to move somewhere where ATC's are ATC's and sheep are scared.
Thanks for clearing up the mystery, the DUB coord has never actually worked according to what they are supposed to do? So blame the procedure you have never followed??? Does anyone in Dubai know whatthe coord is supposed to do?
The coord is supposed to determine the flow rate not coordinate individually, we are busy enough as it is, we do not have time to answer Dubai's call every minute. How about learning how to determine a basic flow rate and then having the balls to stand by it. Running at 30 miles is not determining a flow rate, that's determining a slow rate.
I'm getting too old for this, time to move somewhere where ATC's are ATC's and sheep are scared.
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Back in the day, if the Co-ordinator was switched on, he would look long range and assign speeds for the inbounds, (eg. first 3 guys less then 10 miles is ok, high speed and direct, then slow down number 4), and as long as the co-od knew what was up, it all worked out fine. Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.
Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.
Ah forget it, sounds like work
10 miles with both of them coming thru 320 kts?
no its not a perfect system. yes we are beating our heads against a wall trying to get others ie. app, pilots, management etc to understand our point of view. but its very frustrating to read on here how bad a job uae acc do by slowing/vectoring/holding to give dubai such huge spacing when the reason for all that is due to dubai app and the enormous restrictions they put on in the first place.
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Ali,
Apart from the concensus that holding is better than a conga tour of the Dubai CTA it's sad to see such a lack of appreciation of how things are done at each other's unit. I'm happy to say that I've been to the centre so have a better appreciation of the conditions/procedures you work to. Maybe it would be a good idea if some of you guys took a trip to Dubai on a busy night shift and see first hand what we are up against. Single runway ops, limited taxi routes available and a building site for an airport are just a few of the issues we have against us. I have it on good authority that famil visits for you to us are positively discouraged but I think it's the only way we will have a better picture of what's going on and work together. After all we're batting for the same team.
Sorry but we're not allowed to do that. We can only stipulate the flow rate, it's up to you to decide whether holding is required...(except emergency holding). It would be great of we could but the LoA doesn't allow it. More proof of a poor system.
RD
Apart from the concensus that holding is better than a conga tour of the Dubai CTA it's sad to see such a lack of appreciation of how things are done at each other's unit. I'm happy to say that I've been to the centre so have a better appreciation of the conditions/procedures you work to. Maybe it would be a good idea if some of you guys took a trip to Dubai on a busy night shift and see first hand what we are up against. Single runway ops, limited taxi routes available and a building site for an airport are just a few of the issues we have against us. I have it on good authority that famil visits for you to us are positively discouraged but I think it's the only way we will have a better picture of what's going on and work together. After all we're batting for the same team.
or the bunch of 10 coming trough from the west we only need 10nm but hold the 2 from the east till time .....
RD
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ATCODAD and ALI B. So which is it? Set up the flow and leave it all night so we don't call you and waste your time? Or call and try to do the "10 miles between this one till that one and then back to 20 miles" thing? You contradict each other as to which you would prefer.
I worked a nightshift a while back with the dreaded 30 mile spacing, we adjusted the flow east and west as the traffic determined. Arrivals ended up with 8 miles spacing on final with everyone turning on between 10 and 15 miles. Yes they were holding, but it worked very well with no daisy chain pushing up past the Barracuda. With no slot system out of Dubai, we can't plan an accurate arrival rate every 30 minutes as we have no idea how many will be starting. Wish we could.
I agree some guys on the coordinater put in more work than others, but the same can be said for the "less pro-active" down at ACC. Some do it better than others. Some are a pleasure to work with and others are not. I am sure you feel the same about some of the Dubai lot.
If you think this is bad, wait till the next phase of construction starts.
We would love to see you guys up here for a look see and hopefuly improve relations. Anybody accept?
I worked a nightshift a while back with the dreaded 30 mile spacing, we adjusted the flow east and west as the traffic determined. Arrivals ended up with 8 miles spacing on final with everyone turning on between 10 and 15 miles. Yes they were holding, but it worked very well with no daisy chain pushing up past the Barracuda. With no slot system out of Dubai, we can't plan an accurate arrival rate every 30 minutes as we have no idea how many will be starting. Wish we could.
I agree some guys on the coordinater put in more work than others, but the same can be said for the "less pro-active" down at ACC. Some do it better than others. Some are a pleasure to work with and others are not. I am sure you feel the same about some of the Dubai lot.
If you think this is bad, wait till the next phase of construction starts.
We would love to see you guys up here for a look see and hopefuly improve relations. Anybody accept?
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03Rnow30R
Not so much a contradiction than a willingness to accept a flow rate that suits the traffic at the time, this does not mean 20nm now and after 10 mins 25nm and then back to 10nm 10mins later, rather look long range and give us a flow rate we can work with before the aircraft start calling us. We used to get flow rates imposed on us at the last minute which would end up in a dog fight, we are now at the other extreme of flow rates being placed with no justification. I agree that not all shifts do this and it is perhaps the inconsistency of the application of flow that frustrates us even more.
I agree with station visits, how about a boat trip out to the palm??
Not so much a contradiction than a willingness to accept a flow rate that suits the traffic at the time, this does not mean 20nm now and after 10 mins 25nm and then back to 10nm 10mins later, rather look long range and give us a flow rate we can work with before the aircraft start calling us. We used to get flow rates imposed on us at the last minute which would end up in a dog fight, we are now at the other extreme of flow rates being placed with no justification. I agree that not all shifts do this and it is perhaps the inconsistency of the application of flow that frustrates us even more.
I agree with station visits, how about a boat trip out to the palm??
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red and 03 all im asking for is some forethought and flexability.
30nm in trail seems a smidge of overkill at 1800 when the arrivials burst isn't scheduled in for another 1 1/2 hours. double spacing just to fit in 4 depatures in the next hour seems a bit excessive. keeping the flow rate on till well after the fun has finished comes across as a triffle lazy. i know we are all hard workers blaa blaa blaa but making us give you 30nm between 3 a/c at 2am with no dep pending and nothing in from the east you can understand why some people would think that.
as far as visits go would love to come down to duabi and have a look at why things are the way they are and how you cope. i have tried 3 times since arriving to get down there. twice through work to be knocked back and once on my own to be told by app that i was not allowed access to app as it was not approved by management.
talking about the next phase what are the restrictions going to be and how have your bosses told you to handle it?
30nm in trail seems a smidge of overkill at 1800 when the arrivials burst isn't scheduled in for another 1 1/2 hours. double spacing just to fit in 4 depatures in the next hour seems a bit excessive. keeping the flow rate on till well after the fun has finished comes across as a triffle lazy. i know we are all hard workers blaa blaa blaa but making us give you 30nm between 3 a/c at 2am with no dep pending and nothing in from the east you can understand why some people would think that.
as far as visits go would love to come down to duabi and have a look at why things are the way they are and how you cope. i have tried 3 times since arriving to get down there. twice through work to be knocked back and once on my own to be told by app that i was not allowed access to app as it was not approved by management.
talking about the next phase what are the restrictions going to be and how have your bosses told you to handle it?
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A social get-together a few coldies, a shwarmer, a bit of chest poking followed by a few more coldies should iron out a few of the problems we are all facing on a daily basis.
Lets face it we can't change the policy in this environment but at least we can gain a better understanding of each others problems and at a unit level try and help each other out.
We are all in this together!
Lets face it we can't change the policy in this environment but at least we can gain a better understanding of each others problems and at a unit level try and help each other out.
We are all in this together!
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Agree very much wth the social idea. Will ask management about the the Dubai policy on visits.
Regarding the next phase of construction. Not sure what the flow will be that is going to be dictated by the authority. The problem is not going to be the runway, a few more of the taxiways are going to be closed (among them "k"). The GMC guys are going to have a nightmare trying to move the acft around the place. The fact that the EK hangar has moved to the other side of the runway, now sees a huge amount of towing traffic crossing the runways. The options to get them to the bay will be reduced to one, and that will be contraflow to the single taxiway servicing the runway. Cool huh?
Sorry guys, I think this is going to go on for a while more.
Regarding the next phase of construction. Not sure what the flow will be that is going to be dictated by the authority. The problem is not going to be the runway, a few more of the taxiways are going to be closed (among them "k"). The GMC guys are going to have a nightmare trying to move the acft around the place. The fact that the EK hangar has moved to the other side of the runway, now sees a huge amount of towing traffic crossing the runways. The options to get them to the bay will be reduced to one, and that will be contraflow to the single taxiway servicing the runway. Cool huh?
Sorry guys, I think this is going to go on for a while more.
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Originally Posted by Fox3snapshot
A social get-together a few coldies, a shwarmer, a bit of chest poking followed by a few more coldies......
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Mutley!
OK so I was going through a phase, rehab really works....now where did I put my drink...hick...
I did a quick calculation and I don't think I came out too badly...
Ticket........................... 150 DHS
3 Buckets of fizzies........... 450 DHS
2 Bottles of Grape Juice........... 400 DHS
6 Pies......... .................. 40 DHS (The most critical part of the operation, phases 2 and 3 not possible without them!)
7's Jersey........................ 300 DHS (proof of attendance and a method of retracing one's steps)
1 Sony Digicam...................... 2100 DHS
Oakley Sunnies....................... 350 DHS
Mobile............................ 1700 DHS
Girlfriends perfume................ 450 DHS (safely stored in Sony camera bag)
The Girlfriend...................... 500 DHS (replacement fee from Le Cyclone dating service)
Taxi fare there...................... 25 DHS
Taxi Fare home..................... 300 DHS (possible clean up fee and via Ras Al Khaimah included in that)
Pride............................... 3 DHS (lost that when I tangled up with the Dubai mob so cheap to replace!)
Total for a top day out: 6,768 DHS give or take.
Now where else in the world can you get value for money like that!??
Now does anybody have the final result from the last 7's, for the life of me can't recall seeing a footy kicked, was it called off ???
OK so I was going through a phase, rehab really works....now where did I put my drink...hick...
I did a quick calculation and I don't think I came out too badly...
Ticket........................... 150 DHS
3 Buckets of fizzies........... 450 DHS
2 Bottles of Grape Juice........... 400 DHS
6 Pies......... .................. 40 DHS (The most critical part of the operation, phases 2 and 3 not possible without them!)
7's Jersey........................ 300 DHS (proof of attendance and a method of retracing one's steps)
1 Sony Digicam...................... 2100 DHS
Oakley Sunnies....................... 350 DHS
Mobile............................ 1700 DHS
Girlfriends perfume................ 450 DHS (safely stored in Sony camera bag)
The Girlfriend...................... 500 DHS (replacement fee from Le Cyclone dating service)
Taxi fare there...................... 25 DHS
Taxi Fare home..................... 300 DHS (possible clean up fee and via Ras Al Khaimah included in that)
Pride............................... 3 DHS (lost that when I tangled up with the Dubai mob so cheap to replace!)
Total for a top day out: 6,768 DHS give or take.
Now where else in the world can you get value for money like that!??
Now does anybody have the final result from the last 7's, for the life of me can't recall seeing a footy kicked, was it called off ???
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I say again
i know have said this before, but just to poke once again.Mr Dane of the GCAA has all the cards . He DICTATES what will be doen in and out of Dubai's Air space. I know that there is still a letter on file in Dubai threatening to fire anybody that holds aircraft in the Dubai CTA. It might be amended for go arounds by now , but the matter still remains. The Mr.Dane is in charge and rules by big stick. By the way , he never worked Approach in his career , except in Abu Dhabi So go figure.
Good luck all.
Same bun fight differnt Decade.